Breaking Bricks at this Kung Fu Club..Whats the Story?

Millionaire

Check out this

http://www.mingchuan.ie/

This is an Irish based Kung Fu club, and they specialise
in breaking bricks, and iron hand...

How before we all trumpet" Bricks don't hit back"

I am curious about this Iron Hand stuff?

If someone can break a pile of bricks..and say they hit
someone with such a conditioned hand, would it be deadly or what?

Has anyone any experience of this? Whats it all about?

I did a little bit of breaking in Tae Kwon Do years back, just boards,
but i think a kid could break boards if taught properly.

so is there a trick involved?

Or do these guys know something, I do n't?

Intelligent debate only please when replying Thank You!

Gerry

pma-ire

baking the brick before hand might make it easier?

i used to do a lot of conditioning on my hands, and we were always told that hitting a guy hard in the face was like hitting a brick wall?? i could (and may still can??) hit a hard bag with punches full force!!

when i did end up hitting a face for real without gloves on it seemed like hitting paper??

so maybe conditioning did help??

pma-ire

i'd love to know where this ming chuan kung fu comes from and who is Grandmaster Lew?? maybe is these guys see this they might let us know??

damo

Brick breaking is just a trick...it is not a display of superhuman strength there is a scientific explanation as follows:

Taken from Scientific American magazine

"Ron McNair raises his hand and brings it quickly down onto a pile of concrete bricks. As he pulls back his left hand, his right hand smashes through the concrete, sending it crumbling to the ground. An exciting picture, but what is it doing in Scientific American magazine?

That powerful karate chop might remind you of the superhuman feats found in Hollywood action movies. But the ability of karate experts to break bricks has an easy explanation in the principles of physics and physiology. In fact, karate experts view breaking bricks and boards as a demonstration of form and concentration. The true nature of karate involves a complete mental and physical discipline that goes far beyond simple hand strikes.

One key to understanding brick breaking is a basic principle of motion: The more momentum an object has, the more force it can generate. When it hit the brick, McNair's hand had reached a speed of 11 meters per second (24 miles per hour). At this speed, his hand exerted a whopping force of 3,000 newtowns--or 675 pounds--on the concrete. A slab of concrete could likely support the weight of a few people weighing a total of 675 pounds (306 kilograms). But apply that amount of force concentrated into an area as small as a fist and the concrete slab will break.

Another key to brick breaking lies literally in the palm of your hand. Feel the bone on the edge of your hand, directly below your little finger. This bone (known as the fifth metacarpal) bears the brunt of McNair's hand strike. Human bones can actually resist 40 times more stress than concrete. (Picture a piece of concrete the size of a bone, and imagine how easily it would break.) The natural engineering of the human hand also lessens the severity of the impact. The muscle, tendons, ligaments and other soft tissue in the hand provide a natural cushion, dispersing the impact energy up through the arm.

If you attempt brick breaking without proper training, you'll end up with an injured hand and possibly serious nerve damage! You must be instructed by an expert in proper technique. Proper training protects your hand because regularly striking a striking pad or post causes your skin to develop calluses, your muscles to strengthen, and your bones to thicken. Extensive training is also necessary to train your brain and muscles to bring your hand down just right--exactly as it reaches its full speed and right smack in the center, at the brick's weakest point."

Its a clever, cool trick for sure, but a trick none the less.

Roper

I remember seeing a guy do an awesome break with his fist through 4" of wood once, and thinking... WOW! Then I saw him spar in the same event later and I remember thinking... POO!

There's a skill to it, no doubt. But its not really a functional skill and it appeals to either those who think I wanna do that, or those who think, if I can do that what can I do to a guys face!

ShaneT

Roper wrote:

I remember seeing a guy do an awesome break with his fist through 4" of wood once, and thinking... WOW! Then I saw him spar in the same event later and I remember thinking... POO!

There's a skill to it, no doubt. But its not really a functional skill and it appeals to either those who think I wanna do that, or those who think, if I can do that what can I do to a guys face!

Not sure I'd agree with that. It's a skill alright. But, only disfunctional in that, the people that tend to "specialise" in breaking rarely then transfer that skill (or more importantly the practise of it) into resitance sparring.

Of course, the other side of the coin is: Boards don't move.

There's physics involved in that there breakin' business and a moving and "absorbent" target (like the human body) puts paid to most of it.

We did loads of breaking in Germany as part of the traditional kyokushin training. I'd hardly call it a "trick". It's a skill. A really simple one that anybody can learn, but a skill nevertheless. As Damo's post pointed out - if you learn it - it's easy, but if you try it without learning the method, application and developming the condition of the striking tool (fist, palm, elbow, shin etc) then you'll just end up breaking something other than the target.

It's like learning to write. Writing isn't a "trick", it's easy when you know how and your fingers do require conditioning to hold the pen for prolonged periods of time and also write them nasty little letters 'n words type thingys. Does the fact that it's "easy when you know how to write" make writing a trick?

It does have it's applications: clean, direct and focused strikes. But, very few Tameshiwari (breaking) practitioners are fighters. The only way it would apply is when a FIGHTER attempts to maintain the same level of clean focused strikes in a fight - and as we all know - fighting = sparring.

Of course, on the other hand, I'm sad to say that I've known "tricksters" to use a diamond cutter in Holland to cut imperceptibley through HUGE ice blocks (effectively cutting them in half) and then magically appear to "smash through" those blocks, whilst in reality they have no ability to punch their way out of a paper back, in a fight or in a demo.

Then, there's Charley. My instructor in Germany. 6'4" and pure muscle. I've known him to smash his way through SIXTEEN non-dodgy beavertail roof tiles (the thick ass jobbies) like they were nothing. Can he transfer it into a fight? The man hit's like f^&%ing mule! Brick or no brick.

Is it a trick?
Sometimes. When a trickster does it, yes. When the real deal does it, no.

Can it be transfered into a fight?
Sure, it's just about focus, speed, timing, distancing and precision (useful concepts in a fight). But, don't expect to get the same result from an absorbent moving target (the human body) that you'd get from a non-absorbant (at best) or brittle (at worst) non-moving target (like that brick that won't hit back).

Saying that hitting a brick hard has no relevance in a fight is like saying hitting the heavy bag has no relevance. Of course, the bag has cardio benefits, but then if that's all it's about, why not just hit a nice soft bag?

Of course, just hitting the back all day is useless to, if you don't spar. So, I'd suggest it's a similar thing.

Is it often transfered into a fight/conflict context?
Nope. People tend to get pretty obsessed with those tiles....
"Ooohhh... I can break 2,118 boards me..."

:::Shane wanders off home hoping that no nasty rocks attack him on the way because he hasn't fought one in a long, long time :::

Millionaire

Ha ha Well I saw the photos of "Big Charley" and heard what you said about him...so I have no doubt his ability to break stone...would transfer in a Wallop!!! No Thanks...better you than me!!!!

I wonder does a conditioned hand make a difference if you get it in the face?

maybe...maybe not..

as I said in another post...yesterday I got a good right cross right on the jaw...right on the button.. lights out for a sec..and legs to jelly (did not let my sparirng partner cop that...I kept going...just about!!). That was with a gloved 10 oz hand....so is rock hard knuckles an advantage?

Roper

I see your point Shane, but I'd still say its a non-functional skill all the same. And here's why:)
Take your instructor. He hits hard and can break tiles. I bet when he does it, he adopts a static stance beforehand and generates power that way.

Then he spars you, and he can hit hard that way too. I would say that while his board breaking might have contributed to it, more likely is that he has trained hard for moving targets by hitting moving bags, pads, and more likely, people!

You said it requires timing. What timing? The board isn't moving and when sizing up neither are you, so there's no timing. There is focus and precision, but for me they're specific to that skill and not of the sort needed for fighting a person.

Other than that, I'd just like to say that hitting stuff is a bit mental! But I think we've all a bit of it in us. "Hmmm, I wonder if I could break that with my sidekick":)

ShaneT

Millionaire wrote:

I wonder does a conditioned hand make a difference if you get it in the face?

Does it make a difference if you get hit in the face by a cricket bat, a baseball bat, or a tennis bat (old style)? They're all made of wood, get swung the same way but been fashioned differently. I'd expect it to make a difference.

Plus, often Gerry, you've seen people that can't supporttheir own striking power (generated through good technique) because their wrist or knuckles can't take it. You know what I'm talking about, the old, "thump him hard as I can, woops, no glove, no wrist support, oops sh!t, there goes my wrist.... should my knuckles really feel this soft and watery?"

We've both seen it happen many, many times. :rolleyes:

Dave Joyce

I am curious about this Iron Hand stuff?

Remember talking to Master Yang, Jwing Ming about this and he said there are about 10 levels (I think) of training for this, the last two of which leave you impotent:eek: It takes years to master and you have to do it under the supervision of a master, he watches your progress and gives you Chinese herbs as you advance through the levels. Basically, you start plunging your hands into a wok of warm sand, then very fine pebbles, very small stones, etc and finally end up plunging your hands into hot metal fillings:eek:

As regards a static stance, Tuhon Tom Kier can break a coconut with his bare hand (bought fresh outta Tesco when we were in England one time, so no tricks), and hes had over 1000 plus wrestling bouts as well as sparring with pro boxers, so I don't think he needs to prime it too much. Mind you, he is a VERY STRONG 24 stone. Then again some guys seem to have naturally conditioned hands, as he was showing us this weird (too difficult to describe, kinda like an over the head palmheel) knife strike, which Tuhon Chris Sayoc used to use while sparring and he'ed drop guys with it.

How come most people seemed to have missed Paul's point about conditioning?

Finally, my first (full contact with leg kicks) fight (Oh, Jaysus, back in 1983:() was against Mick Green from would you believe Ming Chuan who I believe were from Dun Laoighre and the club was run by Mel Curry. Paul Kelly should remember them, ahhh Paul, the good ol' days;)

pma-ire

Dave Joyce wrote:

How come most people seemed to have missed Paul's point about conditioning?

i guess it's cause i'm short!! :mad:

no one ever hears me!! :mad: :mad:

pma-ire

ShaneT wrote:

Plus, often Gerry, you've seen people that can't supporttheir own striking power (generated through good technique) because their wrist or knuckles can't take it. You know what I'm talking about, the old, "thump him hard as I can, woops, no glove, no wrist support, oops sh!t, there goes my wrist.... should my knuckles really feel this soft and watery?"

We've both seen it happen many, many times. :rolleyes:

i've seen it also!

and people used to cringe in the Karate hall in shandon street when i used to lash into the bags without wraps or gloves!! it really stood to me when i had to call on it!!

i can still give a wall a good whack (which was something i used to do as i passed by one as i was conditioning :rolleyes: ).

i remember a buddy told me that he was a seminar with Hee IL Cho years ago and Cho was in sitting stance at a wall hammering into it before the class!! the man has a lump of skin the size of a knuckle on his hand!!

Roper

pma-ire wrote:

i remember a buddy told me that he was a seminar with Hee IL Cho years ago and Cho was in sitting stance at a wall hammering into it before the class!! the man has a lump of skin the size of a knuckle on his hand!!

I've seen that in action. He has HUGE knuckles. We were taking a break at a seminar once and all we could hear was this BOooom noise. When we looked around he was hitting a concrete support for the hall. He says he's never suffered from pain like arthritis or the like, but I think I read somewhere that he knows hes the exception to the rule.

Roper

Whack off furiously at least 6 times a day?

Okay, I'd better flesh this out so that it won't get deleted...ehh. There are no muscles in your wrist, specifically, and its a complex joint so I'd be vary wary of trying to condition it. I've seen guys use really light weights, arm on a chair, isolating the wrist and hand and rolling the dumbell up and down their hand. Don't know if it'd do anything for your punching though.

ShaneT

Elytron wrote:

oh ok. well what would be the best way to make your arm strong so when you punch your wrist doesn't buckle?

It's not really about conditioning the wrist (although anything that strengthens the muscles in the forearm is a significant bonus).

It's more about maintaining a very tight fist and ensuring that the bones in your hand are correctly lined up with the bones in your forearm at the time of impact so that a "bend" doesn't occur.

To get the strong fist, you're really just talking about a strong "grip". So, any cheapo handgrip trainer will do, to help with the strength and alignment, pushups on the foreknuckles (the first two) will help then, bringing us back to square one, tameshiwari (hitting something hard and hitting it correctly with the intent of breaking it) and makiwara (hitting a lump of wood over and over to improve the correct positioning of the punch and condition of the knuckles) and finally, the part that counts, mainting that strong fist and striking power during a fight/competition/spar etc.

That's the short version, but suffice to say there are many ways and means.

pma-ire

ShaneT wrote:

It's more about maintaining a very tight fist and ensuring that the bones in your hand are correctly lined up with the bones in your forearm at the time of impact so that a "bend" doesn't occur.

To get the strong fist, you're really just talking about a strong "grip". So, any cheapo handgrip trainer will do, to help with the strength and alignment, pushups on the foreknuckles (the first two) will help then, bringing us back to square one, tameshiwari (hitting something hard and hitting it correctly with the intent of breaking it) and makiwara (hitting a lump of wood over and over to improve the correct positioning of the punch and condition of the knuckles) and finally, the part that counts, mainting that strong fist and striking power during a fight/competition/spar etc.

That's the short version, but suffice to say there are many ways and means.

Push ups on the foreknuckle are good! As you train the body to aline bones and muscles making the lower arm and fist one unit to support your body in motion.

Also striking the makiwara is good!! But if you don't have one I did find that hitting a punch/kick bag softly and harder over time as your body adjusts was the best method!!

I'm more than likely gone a bit soft there?? But it don't take long for me to get back that each time I get infront of a bag again:D

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

He says he's never suffered from pain like arthritis or the like, but I think I read somewhere that he knows hes the exception to the rule.

Though I'm only 30 I am feeling arthritis type pains in my hands for about 3 years now!!

It's in my family (and my left knee is gone now from the same thing!!) so I don't know if I could have avoided it or not! But it may have taken longer to develop if I'd not been so hard on my hands :rolleyes:

pma-ire

Roper wrote:

"Hmmm, I wonder if I could break that with my sidekick":)

I usually think the same about things but with my turning kick and back reverse turning kick