Pre-op Transexuals

LadyJ

I'm not exactly sure where to put this thread but I thought that it would probably be best to pitch it to the psychologists first just to get a little insight!

So,like alot of people,I've been watching Big Brother and one of the new housemates (Sam) is a pre-op transexual. Now,I'm a completely open minded person and have no problem with homosexuals,transexuals or anyone else who chooses to live their life in what the majority of society would consider to be an "alternative" manner.

However,while watching the show,I heard one of the other housemates (a gay man,Richard) being asked would he be interested in Sam and he said that he obviously wouldn't as Sam lives her life as a female and he likes men.

Now,Sam likes men afaik but surely then,neither men or women would be interested in Sam. So I'm just wondering if this is a subconscious way of isolating herself?

p.pete

Perhaps men who are similarly minded to Sam, and who find Sam attractive will be interested in Sam. Being "alternative" doesn't automatically mean you've barred yourself from everybody - it just puts you into a smaller fishing tract, as it were.

Have the pop-psychologists on Big Brother's Little Brother not touched upon this?

<edit>

I'll leave this thread open for now as long as it receives posts of reasonable psychological merit (consult forum charter). Otherwise it'll be kicked into either Lesbian / Gay / Bisexual or Big Brother forums, depending on which way it swings. I don't particularly want to spend the Summer reading about Big Brother though I'll admit there's potential there for discussion.

LadyJ

This isn't a Big Brother thread,it's just that that's what got me thinking about it. I don't want this to be about the show,but about people in similar situations.

I mean,I can understand that there are certain people who would be up for going out with a person such as Sam,bisexuals perhaps,but I'm just wondering about whether or not this could be a means of isolation or defense maybe.

Odysseus

Rather than a defense or a means of isolation, is it not more concrened with the position Sam has taken in relation to sexuality, from a psychoanalytic perspective it would relate to the route Sam took in negotiating oedipal conflicts. A very interesting topic though.

teemm

Perhaps I can add my experience. I would see myself like Sam in some ways in that is I am transexual. Not gay but arguably bisexual. Although the way I'm attracted to men and women is different. I am attracted to women in the usual male way, (I believe) and men in a typical female way as I understand it. So there is a duality. I don't pretend to understand. I just run with it, life is too short. I see myself as essentially female although I denied it to myself for a long time. Interestingly other people were not fooled but I alway ignored their hints.

I can't speak for Sam but I don't see this as a means of isolating myself or as a defensive measure. It is simply how I am. I believe I think like a woman and would be better off had I been born female. If there was an isolating effect or a defensive reaction then it's due to the fact that I know myself to be different and tended to hide away and avoid confronting the fact.
Now you can argue that by dressing and presenting as a woman I am hiding behind the mask of make up and frills but in fact I feel more exposed as a woman. As a man I'm anonymous. The real me is hidden. There is a difference between transvestites/crossdresser, transexuals and drag queens. Transvestites in my experience play at being women or have a fethishistic attitude to womens clothes. In fact I found transvestite groups to be basically a club where the men happen to dress as women. They even talk about football. People like me were regarded as odd. Drag queens are of course gay men hamming it up.


My experience with men is interesting. I would say 80% of the men I was with, saw themselves as essentially straight, perhaps bi. All were married. Some had children. I usually found out this after I met them. I had a couple of gay relationships. They were not interested in seeing me as woman. When I met one as a woman, he admitted he didn't find me attractive because all he saw was a woman, much like the guy in Big Brother. I was pleased with that reaction in one sense as I see myself as a woman. But it doomed any possible relationship.

On the other hand the 'straight' men I met only wanted to see me as a woman. If I met them dressed as a man, they would hardly speak and direct me somewhere to change. One, giving me a lift made me sit in the back of the car. Most wouldn't dream of dressing in womens clothes.

So quite different reactions.

I don't know what those men really wanted from me. You could argue that the attraction was the little 'extra' I have that most women don't have. But often they steered clear of it, to my relief. Perhaps in their own mind there is no gayness involved when the 'man', doesn't see himself as a man and looks like a woman.

As for me, what did I want? Sex, yes but I also wanted a relationship. I wanted to be with somebody who accepted me for what I am and saw me as a woman. The gay guys didn't. They wanted a man. The straight guys wanted a woman with a penis and in true unfaithful married man style, they lied and smooth talked their way into getting what they wanted. But afterwards they didn't call or answer emails. I fell for it every time.

My experience with women is quite different. I have a lot of women friends, not surprisingly. I told a few good women friends and they immediately accepted me as a woman even in my male persona. Most to be fair knew for a long time although they suspected I was gay. The immediate difference in our relationship was striking. Most men have no clue as to the intimacys women share. I think many men would freak if they knew what their wives or girlfriends told their friends about them.

That is perhaps why many transexuals pre or post op end up in relationships with women or other transexuals.

It's pretty much a universal experience among people like me, at least those I have been in contact with.

I don't know if this helps. It just probably adds to the confusion

p.pete

The David Reimer case study might be of interest in this area.

Odysseus

teemm wrote:

Perhaps I can add my experience. I would see myself like Sam in some ways in that is I am transexual. Not gay but arguably bisexual. Although the way I'm attracted to men and women is different. I am attracted to women in the usual male way, (I believe) and men in a typical female way as I understand it. So there is a duality. I don't pretend to understand. I just run with it, life is too short. I see myself as essentially female although I denied it to myself for a long time. Interestingly other people were not fooled but I alway ignored their hints.

I can't speak for Sam but I don't see this as a means of isolating myself or as a defensive measure. It is simply how I am. I believe I think like a woman and would be better off had I been born female. If there was an isolating effect or a defensive reaction then it's due to the fact that I know myself to be different and tended to hide away and avoid confronting the fact.
Now you can argue that by dressing and presenting as a woman I am hiding behind the mask of make up and frills but in fact I feel more exposed as a woman. As a man I'm anonymous. The real me is hidden. There is a difference between transvestites/crossdresser, transexuals and drag queens. Transvestites in my experience play at being women or have a fethishistic attitude to womens clothes. In fact I found transvestite groups to be basically a club where the men happen to dress as women. They even talk about football. People like me were regarded as odd. Drag queens are of course gay men hamming it up.


My experience with men is interesting. I would say 80% of the men I was with, saw themselves as essentially straight, perhaps bi. All were married. Some had children. I usually found out this after I met them. I had a couple of gay relationships. They were not interested in seeing me as woman. When I met one as a woman, he admitted he didn't find me attractive because all he saw was a woman, much like the guy in Big Brother. I was pleased with that reaction in one sense as I see myself as a woman. But it doomed any possible relationship.

On the other hand the 'straight' men I met only wanted to see me as a woman. If I met them dressed as a man, they would hardly speak and direct me somewhere to change. One, giving me a lift made me sit in the back of the car. Most wouldn't dream of dressing in womens clothes.

So quite different reactions.

I don't know what those men really wanted from me. You could argue that the attraction was the little 'extra' I have that most women don't have. But often they steered clear of it, to my relief. Perhaps in their own mind there is no gayness involved when the 'man', doesn't see himself as a man and looks like a woman.

As for me, what did I want? Sex, yes but I also wanted a relationship. I wanted to be with somebody who accepted me for what I am and saw me as a woman. The gay guys didn't. They wanted a man. The straight guys wanted a woman with a penis and in true unfaithful married man style, they lied and smooth talked their way into getting what they wanted. But afterwards they didn't call or answer emails. I fell for it every time.

My experience with women is quite different. I have a lot of women friends, not surprisingly. I told a few good women friends and they immediately accepted me as a woman even in my male persona. Most to be fair knew for a long time although they suspected I was gay. The immediate difference in our relationship was striking. Most men have no clue as to the intimacys women share. I think many men would freak if they knew what their wives or girlfriends told their friends about them.

That is perhaps why many transexuals pre or post op end up in relationships with women or other transexuals.

It's pretty much a universal experience among people like me, at least those I have been in contact with.

I don't know if this helps. It just probably adds to the confusion

Thank you for that teemm, that's a very interesting post, and just because I'm a psychoanalyst I don't mean it in an "I'm analysing you way". I've done a small amount of work with people in "similar situations" [for want of better words]and just thought that you encapsulated it whe you said "it is simply the way you are".

Often in therapeutics we get caught up in diagnostic terms, from my perspective and a lot of the people I trained with, when we use such terms there is nothing negative in them [for some there is:mad: ] it is simply another way of being in the world. Best of luck.

ScumLord

I don't mean to insult anyone here but I think I have a bit of a problem with transexuals when it comes to operations. I'm all for being yourself and if you want to dress up in womens clothing then off with ya I'm not going to tell anyone it's wrong that's just personal choice and what you like, but just out of curiosity...

When a man or woman says their the oposit sex traped in a mans/womans body, there's no evidence that their brain is actually the oposit sex brain by that I mean the man would actually have the phsical brain of a woman. That's not possible is it? I'm preaty sure I've heard that the male and female brain is subtley different. So what they beleave is that people are givin a male or female sole before being born and there was some confusion along the way.

Like I said it's really the operations that I have a problem with, no matter what steps you take to make yourself look like a woman you will always be a man. I don't know how people can contemplate mutilating.. down there.. just to feel like their a little closer to being something they will never be. Maybe it's just that I hold the human machine with such high regard that it kindof upsets me but at the same time I think the hole process looks to me like transexuals are blaming their bodys for their minds unhappiness.

Kernel

teemm wrote:

I can't speak for Sam but I don't see this as a means of isolating myself or as a defensive measure. It is simply how I am.

Interesting post. But from a psychological standpoint, aren't most people acting subconsciously unaware of it? Saying 'it is simply who I am' is what anyone with emotional/mental/psychological problems can say.

You could be acting in the way you are for subconscious defensive purposes, and aren't aware of it, thus taking it as part of your persona.

If I decided to be a serial killer due to cumulative effects on my mental state during my childhood, then I could say 'I'm a serial killer. It's simply how I am' without understanding the reasons in my psyche as to why I am what I am.*

*I'm not trying to compare transvestites with serial killers, it's just an analogy. I'm referring to LadyJ's point regarding why some gay men decide to remain as a man, while others feel the need to transform themselves into a woman which could potentially isolate them from both gay men and straight men.

Filan

Very interesting to hear your views Teemm, my feelings are very similar....and it was good to hear from a like minded person. For considerable time I considered myself transsexual....but I've reached acceptance that I am simply a biological male who acts, not deliberately, in a quite effeminate(hate labels but for convenience I'll use it here) manner....and who's interests would be more often shared by women. I like clothes, hair, make up...and have always interacted with , and related to women more easily than to men. I have often been labelled gay...even close friends have been initially unsure...as society has been conditioned into believing that gay and effeminate men are one entity.

However why is it wrong for men to be 'effeminate' or to share many erroneously termed 'feminine traits'?. Traditonal male clothing is often shockingly dull...in some parts of the world it is usual for men to wear elaborate costumes and hairstyle...what is the kilt?. A dress by a different term?. Who decided what was the 'normal'(again hate term) way for men or women to behave....?...Does my way of life make me any less a man?. I will always be a man as I posess the male reproductive organs....but what is wrong with men being feminine?. We all contain both male and female chromosomes...so surely it's natural that behaviours could overlap?.

The ruling classes decided what male and female behaviour should be, and by the various organs of the state , indoctrinated and decided what was 'normal'. The 'norm' is an artificial term. What's wrong with men being feminine or women being masculine or lesbian?. Is everyone not different? Is difference not natural?.

I like Teemm consider my behaviour to be me...I'm not interested in labels...I empathise with the transgender community but I'm reluctant to use the term myself...I'm just a man who shares a lot of common ground with women...whatever way I am is me...and I think people respect confidence...they may not share one views...but I won't be seen as vulnerable..whereas the female who is nervous about here masculinity of lesbian tendencies will be seen as weak or a figure of pity....and suffer more so.

Difference is natural, it is the true 'Norm'
Alan

Zillah

ScumLord wrote:

When a man or woman says their the oposit sex traped in a mans/womans body, there's no evidence that their brain is actually the oposit sex brain

Uh no, there is evidence and its quite feasible that one's brain could develop traits of the opposite sex. It has to do with hormones during foetal development.

Also, who gives a crap whether its biological, psychological or spiritual in regards to whether they should do it or not, they feel like they're in the wrong body and usually have done so for decades, it won't just go away. Regardless of why they feel that way, they do.

Filan wrote:

The ruling classes decided what male and female behaviour should be, and by the various organs of the state , indoctrinated and decided what was 'normal'. The 'norm' is an artificial term. What's wrong with men being feminine or women being masculine or lesbian?. Is everyone not different? Is difference not natural?.

There's nothing wrong with labels like "normal". The problem occurs when someone implies that not being normal is inherently a problem.

Remember, evolution dictates that the average human survive, bare minimum, thats it. They're not expected to be philosophers.