3 3/6 cash hands agsint same villain

Gholimoli · 01-06-2006 3:14pm #1

villain is this hand(donkeyrobot ) is a very LAG player.he thinks he is very good and talkta a lot of ****e on the table.im still making my mind up if he is any good at all but at the moment I think he is just lucky.
Anyway, he plays any two cards, raises with any two, calls a raise with any two etc.
Basically will try to see a flop and then will take it from there based on the opponent his facing and betting etc.
I have seen him bet big on every street with nothing, I have seen him loose 800 with nothing on bluffs, but he also plays the same way with his big hands.

Hand 1:
Stacks:
Villain 450
Me 600

I raise on the button to 21 with ATo he calls from BB.

Flop (45)
T 3 5 r
He checks .
I bet 30 he calls.

Turn (95)
9 completing the rainbow
he checks .
whats my move?

Hand two
Stacks:
Villain 700
Me 900
I open limp MP with 56s and folded him on BB who makes it 21.
My intention was to reraise him here but I thought ah I see a flop instead so I just called(I know its bad so don’t comment on the call here).

Flop(45)
445
he bets 40
whats my move?

Hand 3:
Stacks:
Me 500
villain 900

I open raise UTG with JJ to 25 .
Folded to villain on BB who calls.
Flop (53)
A J T with two hearts.
Villain checks
Hero?

fuzzbox · 01-06-2006 3:26pm

Hand 1 - bet mostly, sometimes check and call any river
Hand 2 - call sometimes, fold sometimes
Hand 3 - 40-50 seems good, shove if he raises

CoD · 01-06-2006 3:29pm

1) Bet 60, maybe check behind on river, if checked to you.
2) Raise to 120, you'll know then if he has the 4 or over pair.
3) Bet 40, and push to a RR

fuzzbox · 01-06-2006 3:35pm

CoD wrote:

2) Raise to 120, you'll know then if he has the 4 or over pair.

Yuck.

AmarilloFats · 01-06-2006 3:35pm

Hand #1 - I check here. It induces bets/AND CALLS from weaker hands on the river, it also induces bluffs. Keeps pot small, if u like that sorta thing in this type of situation..
But I like to check either turn or river and I thinnk Checking the turn is superior.

hand#2
Well,depends on villain. Does he give up with overcards on a blank turn?

hand#3
POT. Doesn't even depend. I always pot here.

Hectorjelly · 01-06-2006 3:36pm

hand 1 chk behind on turn and call a bet on the river, unless hes really bad. Bet if chkd to on river (bet the full pot)

hand 2 either call and raise turn or fold. Thats not a great flop for you as if behind you have 2 outs

Hand 3 bet and flat call reraise

AmarilloFats · 01-06-2006 3:37pm

CoD wrote:

2) Raise to 120, you'll know then if he has the 4 or over pair.

MM Don't liek this at all...

Gholimoli · 01-06-2006 3:39pm

fuzzbox wrote:

Hand 1 - bet mostly, sometimes check and call any river
Hand 2 - call sometimes, fold sometimes
Hand 3 - 40-50 seems good, shove if he raises

H1) how much do i bet?
H2) if i call ,what do i do when an over card comes on the turn and he bets?
H3) what are my intentions if a flush card hits if he bets?what if he checks?what if he check raises?

fuzzbox · 01-06-2006 3:43pm

Gholimoli wrote:

H1) how much do i bet?
H2) if i call ,what do i do when an over card comes on the turn and he bets?
H3) what are my intentions if a flush card hits if he bets?what if he checks?what if he check raises?

1. As much as you like

. 60 ? 75 ? pot? all seem ok I guess. He will call light, so bet ... right? Alternatively, you can check here to induce a river bluff, which is also a good plan, and helps keep the pot small, and gets you to showdown easier. Up to you, both are good teams.

2. Well Gholi, you have a marginal pair, and an aggro villain, I'm afraid you are gonna have to make up your own mind

. You can save yourself this hassle by A. Raising your hand yourself preflop, rather than limp/call, B. folding the flop

3. Once again you have to play some poker. I would find it hard to laydown a set against this guy though. Depending on how aggro he gets on the turn and river if a heart pops off.

ianmc38 · 01-06-2006 3:44pm

Hand 1: I check behind the turn and call / bet if checked to on the river.
Hand 2: I hate the open limp with 56s. As played, I probably call.
Hand 3: I bet the pot and as HJ said just flat call a raise.

pok3rplaya · 01-06-2006 3:46pm

fuzzbox wrote:

Hand 1 - bet mostly, sometimes check and call any river
Hand 2 - call sometimes, fold sometimes
Hand 3 - 40-50 seems good, shove if he raises

In hand 3, if he reraises I think a call is better because it'l look weak and make him put the rest in on the turn.

ianmc38 · 01-06-2006 3:47pm

Gholimoli wrote:

H1) how much do i bet?
H2) if i call ,what do i do when an over card comes on the turn and he bets?
H3) what are my intentions if a flush card hits if he bets?what if he checks?what if he check raises?

H1 - 1/2-2/3 pot looks good
H2 - Depends really. An overcard could be a 7.
H3 - I will probably flat call if he bets a flush card. If he checks, i check behind and call a bet on the river.

Gholimoli · 01-06-2006 3:54pm

Results:
H1)
I bet half pot on the turn ,he calls,
River K,
He checks ,I check behind he has KQs and wins.
Comments?
I was really angry feeling I didn’t bet enough to get rid of the over cards here and he won a big pot from me.i know he didn’t play it well but did I?
Also is checking behind on the turn good here?I mean how can checking the turn and then calling a flop bet be good poker here?you have giving him a free chance to fill up and then your paying up when he does !I know he may bluff here some times on the river with a worse hand but does this happen often enough to make check/calling a better play than betting.

H2)
I called the bet ,
Turn was a 2 and he came out betting again and I folded he showed 77 and he would have done this with any two at all knowing that flop could not have hit me.

H3)
I bet out pot sized and he calls.
Turn was another heart and he came out firing half pot.
I flat called the bet and river was another T giving me a FH .he went all in and I called.
He had Q5h for flush .
Comments?

Hectorjelly · 01-06-2006 3:58pm

Gholimoli wrote:

Results:
H1)
I bet half pot on the turn ,he calls,
River K,
He checks ,I check behind he has KQs and wins.
Comments?
I was really angry feeling I didn’t bet enough to get rid of the over cards here and he won a big pot from me.i know he didn’t play it well but did I?
Also is checking behind on the turn good here?I mean how can checking the turn and then calling a flop bet be good poker here?you have giving him a free chance to fill up and then your paying up when he does !I know he may bluff here some times on the river with a worse hand but does this happen often enough to make check/calling a better play than betting.

Chk the turn is good if you are against someone who isnt a total moron, in this case it looks like he is a complete moron so I would play it differently. Words cant describe how bad he played his hand, you played it fine. Every street money wentin you were ahead. He will be broke in a few months if he plays like that

ianmc38 · 01-06-2006 4:00pm

Hand 1: Unlucky. He'll miss his 6outs on the river alot more than he'll hit and will often bluff when he misses, interpreting your turn check as weakness. Therefore, I prefer checking behind on the turn. He must be an absolute fish if he thinks his K high is good on two streets.

Hand 2: Again, I hate open-limping with that muck.

Hand 3: Played it fine. You miss on the river, you fold.

fuzzbox · 02-06-2006 8:55am

Gholi - these hands were played pretty well.

Gholimoli wrote:

Results:
H1)
I bet half pot on the turn ,he calls,
River K,
He checks ,I check behind he has KQs and wins.
Comments?
I was really angry feeling I didn’t bet enough to get rid of the over cards here and he won a big pot from me.i know he didn’t play it well but did I?
Also is checking behind on the turn good here?I mean how can checking the turn and then calling a flop bet be good poker here?you have giving him a free chance to fill up and then your paying up when he does !I know he may bluff here some times on the river with a worse hand but does this happen often enough to make check/calling a better play than betting.

Gholi - a big difference between tourneys and cash is that winning the pot asap is relatively less important. You can always get more chips onto the table, so its more about winning money, than winning the pot.
In this hand you played well - you gave him bad odds, for his draw on every street that he was behind, and he took those odds, and this time he outdrew you to beat you, but you did not leak implied odds, because you did not pay him off when he did this.

Against this particular guy, the best play is to bet the turn. Against some other guys, checking the turn is a good play (guys who wont call a turn bet without a better hand than you most of the time), but might call/bet the river with something like 88 if you check the turn.

Again, its not about winning the pot, its about maximizing your return on the hand, and minimizing your loss, if you are beaten. So checking the turn against many players is good, because you have position, and can therefore control the size of the pot (by calling a river bet, rather than raising, by betting if checked to, or by checking behind if you so wish). Sometimes you need to consider that betting escalates the pot, and when you find an opponent who wants to escalate the pot here, TP is one of the weaker holdings that he will do that with, so your hand doesnt stand up to his range, IF the pot starts to get big.

H2)
I called the bet ,
Turn was a 2 and he came out betting again and I folded he showed 77 and he would have done this with any two at all knowing that flop could not have hit me.

Seems fine, I prolly would have done the same. A key question here is "will villain fire two barrells on a bluff?". If yes, then you might just want to fold this on the flop as you are often way behind here (even against morons), but when you are ahead, you can never be sure, and you are never a huge favourite, and you wont know what cards help your opponent.

I really hate limp/calling though.

H3)
I bet out pot sized and he calls.
Turn was another heart and he came out firing half pot.
I flat called the bet and river was another T giving me a FH .he went all in and I called.
He had Q5h for flush .
Comments?

Played perfectly.

FastMachine · 02-06-2006 3:30pm

fuzzbox wrote:

I really hate limp/calling though.

I generally don't raise sc's, I'd often limp call with them though (in position 90% of the time, only 10% oop) especially against these types of villains. His range will be so wide that if you make top pair you'll be ahead alot of the time and if you flop a good enough draw you can often easily take him off the pot on the turn with a v big reraise/allin that he won't be able to call - the small % of the time he does you still have your draw. If you think he's too strong on the turn you can just call for you draw.

Gholimoli · 02-06-2006 3:45pm

Another advantage of this play against this particular type of villain is that if you hit a good flop you can easily stack them.
When you limp and call a raise with 56s from UTG he will never put you on that at all. he will figure you either for a mid pair or two high cards.
Now if he has nothing and high cards hit ,he would generally be afraid that you have hit your hand .this will be confirmed by him checking the hand to you. even better if he has a hand like QQ or KK (this has actually happened against this villain) and flop comes 56x then he will bet big and will call any reraise .the reason for this is because he thinks you think he is bluffing(because he bluffs a lot with nothing) and he thinks his QQ is actually good here and he would never dream of you limping UTG with trash like that and then calling a raise with it.
obviously this has to be in postion other wise i dont htink its worth it.

Hectorjelly · 02-06-2006 3:55pm

you are better off calling raises against tight players with SC than looser ones.

Also fast machine do you use PT? If so could you filter for hands like 56s where you called a raise and see if they are profitable - I dont think they will be.

A 100 bb game (or 75 one) is not one where you can profitable call raises with 56s under normal circumstances.

FastMachine · 02-06-2006 5:29pm

Hmm, not sure I agree with you here Hector.

I'd usually fold sc's in position against tag players if they make a 3xbb or greater raise - depends on their raising frequency. The reason being that I'm calling off too much of my stack to effectively hit a draw. Then you call off more to hit your draw which you'll miss most of the time. Your implied odds against tight players are also lower as they won't call off as much/often when you hit as the loose guys. The way I see it, you're relying on bluff equity to make calling with sc's against tight players profitable and I don't generally like to try and take an opponent off a hand he likes - I never underestimate my opponents ability to call off his stack with tptk or an overpair/high pp.

Against looser players with wider ranges you're hand strength is increased against their range, and though you'll have less bluff equity overall I think an all in semi bluff (generally on the turn) works better against these players as they are more likely to have a weaker holding (although better than your own) that they'll be unable to call with you with.

Two examples:

The Lady Vanishes 8161260-93633 Holdem No Limit $3/$6
[Jun 1 22:46:14] : Hand Start.
[Jun 1 22:46:14] : Seat 1 : -nudie- has $481.25
[Jun 1 22:46:14] : Seat 2 : heisthegman has $243.48
[Jun 1 22:46:14] : Seat 3 : Fa$tMachine has $1,524.94
[Jun 1 22:46:14] : Seat 4 : rjlstat has $1,442.16
[Jun 1 22:46:14] : Seat 5 : bustedflush has $441
[Jun 1 22:46:14] : Seat 6 : FATTERMARRA has $369
[Jun 1 22:46:14] : Fa$tMachine is the dealer.
[Jun 1 22:46:48] : rjlstat posted small blind.
[Jun 1 22:46:48] : bustedflush posted big blind.
[Jun 1 22:46:48] : Game [93633] started with 6 players.
[Jun 1 22:46:48] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Jun 1 22:46:48] : Seat 3 : Fa$tMachine has 4c 5c
[Jun 1 22:46:52] : FATTERMARRA called $6 and raised $15
[Jun 1 22:46:54] : -nudie- folded.
[Jun 1 22:46:55] : heisthegman folded.
[Jun 1 22:46:58] : Fa$tMachine called $21
[Jun 1 22:47:00] : rjlstat called $18
[Jun 1 22:47:06] : bustedflush folded.
[Jun 1 22:47:07] : Dealing flop.
[Jun 1 22:47:07] : Board cards [6c 9d Jc]
[Jun 1 22:47:13] : rjlstat checked.
[Jun 1 22:47:16] : FATTERMARRA bet $48
[Jun 1 22:47:18] : Fa$tMachine called $48
[Jun 1 22:47:21] : rjlstat folded.
[Jun 1 22:47:21] : Dealing turn.
[Jun 1 22:47:21] : Board cards [6c 9d Jc 2s]
[Jun 1 22:47:25] : FATTERMARRA bet $48
[Jun 1 22:47:32] : Fa$tMachine called $48 and raised $300
[Jun 1 22:47:05] : FATTERMARRA folded.
[Jun 1 22:47:07] : Seat 3 : Fa$tMachine has 4c 5c
[Jun 1 22:47:07] : Fa$tMachine wins $258 as the last player standing with High Card : Jack
[Jun 1 22:47:12] : Hand is over.

Villian is a very frequent raiser, obviously isn't too strong now but could very well call a standard reraise on the turn here with overcards/pp/pair. A tight opponent raising from EP will often have an overpair if he bets again on the turn so it's alot more risky sticking him all in here.

Take The Lead 8937268-6378 Holdem No Limit $5/$10
[May 30 13:44:27] : Hand Start.
[May 30 13:44:27] : Seat 1 : clownface5 has $882
[May 30 13:44:27] : Seat 2 : greyhound! has $1,706.50
[May 30 13:44:27] : Seat 3 : roccodp has $750
[May 30 13:44:27] : Seat 4 : MisterEko has $822.50
[May 30 13:44:27] : Seat 5 : Fa$tMachine has $735
[May 30 13:44:27] : Seat 6 : LuckyCU has $817
[May 30 13:44:27] : Fa$tMachine is the dealer.
[May 30 13:44:28] : LuckyCU posted small blind.
[May 30 13:44:28] : clownface5 posted big blind.
[May 30 13:44:32] : roccodp posted big blind.
[May 30 13:44:32] : Game [6378] started with 6 players.
[May 30 13:44:32] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[May 30 13:44:32] : Seat 5 : Fa$tMachine has Td Jd
[May 30 13:44:33] : greyhound! folded.
[May 30 13:44:38] : roccodp raised $40
[May 30 13:44:40] : MisterEko called $50
[May 30 13:44:44] : Fa$tMachine called $50
[May 30 13:44:44] : LuckyCU folded.
[May 30 13:44:46] : clownface5 folded.
[May 30 13:44:46] : Dealing flop.
[May 30 13:44:46] : Board cards [4d Ad 9c]
[May 30 13:44:53] : roccodp bet $80
[May 30 13:44:55] : MisterEko folded.
[May 30 13:44:57] : Fa$tMachine called $80
[May 30 13:44:57] : Dealing turn.
[May 30 13:44:57] : Board cards [4d Ad 9c Tc]
[May 30 13:45:00] : roccodp checked.
[May 30 13:45:09] : Fa$tMachine bet $605 and is All-in
[May 30 13:45:21] : roccodp folded.
[May 30 13:45:21] : Fa$tMachine wins $322 as the last player standing
[May 30 13:45:24] : Hand is over.

Villain had a high pair here that he would have been willing to call off a very big portion of his stack on the turn and river. A tight opponent could very well have a good A here so again, it's much riskier using the all in semi-bluff here.

This is how I play sc's against lags when I don't hit on the turn but have good draws and sense weakness. I'm know I'm up overall in these situations, I can't say how I'm faing overall with sc's though as I'm on holidays and don't have access to my usual pc.

FastMachine · 02-06-2006 5:31pm

I agree with you about 100b not giving you much room to manouever with sc's. Oop they're a long term loser if the stacks are only 100b deep, but I think with position a bit of a profit can be turned.