regarding discussion pre-release media

RE*AC*TOR

Doctor J has suggested the possiblity of an official policy regarding the discussion of pre-release (leaked) media.
Specifically, he believes that discussion of this material is tantamount to admission of guilt and puts boards.ie in potential liability.

Karl Hungus also believes this.

My position is that in-line with previous policy, ie no linking to illegal material, no linking to torrents etc, or providing information to aid obtaining illegal material, this step as proposed by Doctor J and Karl Hungus is a step too far.

There was a previous thread on this forum regarding Karl Hungus' moderation of the metal forum, specifically relating to the leak of the new Tool album. I might go so far as to say that the conclusion was that it was his forum to moderate, and the decision was his. This implies that boards.ie doesn't specifically ban this type of discussion.

Doctor J said he would post a thread to this extent in the mod forum, however, in the interest of transparency I opened this thread.

Could someone with the relevant authority (Admin? Smod?) bring a little clarity to this matter.

Thanks.

Crash

Interested of transparency, or you've just got a very long nose? up to the viewers to decide...

RE*AC*TOR

Thanks for that. Helpful.

I know you treat the feedback forum like your own personal ****-about forum, but sometimes people do sincerely want to raise an issue.

Crash

Helpful? no. true? yes. The thread has been brought up on the mod forum to get an answer from the powers that be - in which case, does your opinion matter? no. not to me, or anyone else - to me because i don't have any power in the decision, and neither do the others unless they're the admins.


Basically you just wanted to keep having your little moan and say, and couldn't deal with it being taken somewhere you couldnt complain.

RE*AC*TOR

Why are you posting here at all then if it doesn't matter?

Just moral outrage? Are you the nosey-police?

By opening this thread I'm not going to get any more insight into the joys posted on the moderator forum :rolleyes:

I couldn't care less what is posted there, however, the admins can post here just as easily, and I felt it was a more appropriate section.

Doctor J even suggested I open the thread here. Are we done?

flogen

As I stated in the Tool thread I don't think that the discussion of material, even that undoubtadly obtained illegally, should not be hindered; the rules stopping the discussion on actually obtaining such material (links, hints at websites to check etc.) should, naturally be banned.
If you start to stop people discussing things they obtained illegally, where do you draw the line; is it only forbidden when it is impossible for them to have heard/seen/played something (ie it has not been released anywhere in the world) or is it just if it isn't available legally in this country (the country where Boards.ie is based)? I sarcastically pointed out that an album not yet released can still be heard legally, all you have to do is work for the relevant record company or be close to the band; while it was a tongue in cheek point I'm sure many will chance their arm, with "My cousin in America" type defences being used ("My cousin in Sony BMG").
Leave it up to the individual mods, Karl and Doctor J should be able to moderate the forums they moderate as they choose, if they're not comfortable with discussions on material probably obtained illegally then they should be allowed to ban it, but the line, IMO, is a very difficult one to draw.

flogen

&#231 wrote: »

Helpful? no. true? yes. The thread has been brought up on the mod forum to get an answer from the powers that be - in which case, does your opinion matter? no. not to me, or anyone else - to me because i don't have any power in the decision, and neither do the others unless they're the admins.

We all know that no-one's opinion matters here, in any respect, except the admins however the Feedback forum exists to give Feedback, it doesn't mean anything will be done on it, but users are free to discuss boards.ie related issues here and voice their concerns.
The only problem that arises here is when people think their opinion is more valid than everyone elses and the admins must listen, and I don't see that happening here.

Crash

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Why are you posting here at all then if it doesn't matter?

To point out the error of your ways. its just too easy.

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Just moral outrage? Are you the nosey-police?

*suddenly reminded of a bunch of Roxanne quotes, but I won't*

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

By opening this thread I'm not going to get any more insight into the joys posted on the moderator forum :rolleyes:

then why post it?

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

I couldn't care less what is posted there, however, the admins can post here just as easily, and I felt it was a more appropriate section.

so as opposed to getting the same reply either way, you just felt getting a reply here as opposed to a clarification on the music forums would be more appropriate? aaah, makes sense....i'm sure.

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Doctor J even suggested I open the thread here. Are we done?

yeah I'm sure we are.

for the record I'm not having a go at the question raised, just wondering why the hell you felt this thread necessary.

EDIT:

Flogen wrote:

We all know that no-one's opinion matters here, in any respect, except the admins however the Feedback forum exists to give Feedback, it doesn't mean anything will be done on it, but users are free to discuss boards.ie related issues here and voice their concerns.

that is true - however not every decision on boards is made in public, and most users know that. deciding they felt it was "a more transparent process" to have it here as opposed to the mod forum, where the issue had been brought up so that an answer could be got, is just silly.

RE*AC*TOR

I could as easily ask why you feel it necessary to jump in with your soundbites.

I'm not intersted in having an arguement with you. I stated my reason. I think its a more appropriate location for the discussion. Its not hurting anyone.

Doctor J

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Specifically, he believes that discussion of this material is tantamount to admission of guilt and puts boards.ie in potential liability.

Specifically, I never said any such thing, so please refrain from speaking for me.

I dislike illegal downloading. That is my opinion, as we have gone over many times in the past.

Putting links to illegal material puts boards.ie in potential liability.

There is no drugs discussion thread. There is no Stolen Gear discussion thread. I don't believe it is appropriate for Boards to foster a download culture but, as I said, I would raise it with the smods and admins for their say on the matter, which I did.

flogen

&#231 wrote: »

that is true - however not every decision on boards is made in public, and most users know that. deciding they felt it was "a more transparent process" to have it here as opposed to the mod forum, where the issue had been brought up so that an answer could be got, is just silly.

Very few are from what I can see; I don't see a problem with having the discussion here as well as on the mod forum; while the Smods are a very well respected bunch they are not the ones making the decisions either; if it was the aim of whoever to get the official stance on the issue then a PM to an admin would have been the best way (isolate out the noise of people like you and me who don't have to make the decision and don't live or die by them); there is a discussion going on now amongst mods, who on a site level are no more important than the average user.

RE*AC*TOR

Doctor J wrote:

Specifically, I never said any such thing, so please refrain from speaking for me.

does this sound familiar?

Doctor J wrote:

Regardless of who uploaded it or why, downloading copyright protected music is illegal. Downloading copyright protected music before it has even been released is the type of thing that gets forums like this shut down

did my paraphrasing take away from the meaning of your words? I was trying to put it more eloquently.

flogen

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

did my paraphrasing take away from the meaning of your words? I was trying to put it more eloquently.

I think your use of the word 'discussing' is where the confusion comes in; Doctor J just said downloading prereleased material is what gets forums shut down, which could apply to the discussion of the material itself, the discussion of how to get that material or actual links to the material.

RE*AC*TOR

flogen wrote:

I think your use of the word 'discussing' is where the confusion comes in; Doctor J just said downloading prereleased material is what gets forums shut down, which could apply to the discussion of the material itself, the discussion of how to get that material or actual links to the material.

Perhaps. I apologise to Doctor J if I misrepresented him.

I can certainly change my original post to reflect this if he would like.

I know for certain that Karl Hungus presented that reason. The quote from Doctor J was in the context of what Karl Hungus had already said on that thread. Apolgies again if I misrepresented the facts. It was not my intention, I was merely trying to put the two sides down succinctly in the first post.

Either way I think Doctor J has clarified his stance.

WhiteWashMan

does this mean that we should also ban links to youtube or whatever its called?
half the stuff ive seen on there are videos are copied from MTV etc.

Hobart

WhiteWashMan wrote:

does this mean that we should also ban links to youtube or whatever its called?
half the stuff ive seen on there are videos are copied from MTV etc.

Aye, lets close the interweb. It's a safer world without it...click!

Crash

Actually, i'm trying to study so if mods could ban videos from youtube until next thursday, it'd be great.

kthxbye.

Doctor J

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

does this sound familiar?

Doctor J wrote:

Regardless of who uploaded it or why, downloading copyright protected music is illegal. Downloading copyright protected music before it has even been released is the type of thing that gets forums like this shut down

did my paraphrasing take away from the meaning of your words? I was trying to put it more eloquently.

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

Specifically, he believes that discussion of this material is tantamount to admission of guilt and puts boards.ie in potential liability.

Maybe I'm missing something, please point out the part of that sentence where I'm specific that discussion of downloaded music puts boards into liability. I could swear I said downloading in that post. To put your out of context quote back into context, that was referring to several forums not dissimilar to Boards which had been shut down due to linking to leaked Guns N Roses tracks, on a thread which basically explained how and where to find the leaked Tool album prior to its release. The thread had stopped being about music and had settled on the topic of downloading (bear in mind that it was kept open while people were talking about music and only locked when it became a key to stealing it). Do you not think that threads explaining how to find a leaked album exposes Boards to potential liability? Again, I say I would err on the side of caution on these matters.

The comment you quoted was in response to posts like these

The full album is now available, definetely genuine.

Currently downloading 10kD, can't wait to hear it,

this is taking its time. wouldve thought there would be tonnes of seeds.

ok..I tried so hard not to download it. But I gave in.yes, yes..shame on me

aww yes gonna "buy" this now. Is the pearl jam album available for "purchase" too?

anyway, just wondering where a good place to download it would be

and the similar threads which had gone before it where bright sparks had put up direct links to the torrents which do indeed open up Boards to liability, it's the kind of thing these threads tend to attract. I don't think it is appropriate for Boards to facilitate this kind of thing as it frequently sends people scurrying off to download, but that is, as I tire of saying, my opinion and which is why I raised it on the mod forum.

RE*AC*TOR

So if I were to rephrase, would I be correct in saying that your objection is purely moral?

ie

(a) the downloading (not the discussion) is illegal
(b) we are (indirectly) promoting that illegal downloading by discussing it

As I already said, I am happy to rephrase my first post if you like.

Say the word.

Doctor J

You've no need to speak on my behalf at all, I'm perfectly capable of speaking for myself, which I believe I quite clearly have

RE*AC*TOR

As a I said, I was merely trying to offer both sides in the first post for the sake of brevity (which is obviously at a premium around here).

There's nothing wrong with digesting things down into points for clarity.

dream brother

don wanna sound like a fleabag or anything, and it is one of my favourite threads on boards.ie, but how come the Lost thread gets away with discussing the shows, and before you ask it is the same thing! all people wanna done is talk about music.
One of the mods, can't remember who posted it, said that there is enough new music out there to discuss, but who's to say that I want to talk about Mundy or CowboyX????and any other! It was the Thom Yorke album that people wanted to talk about!

CuLT

Did anyone on boards.ie sign a non-disclosure agreement with these bands? No? Didn't think so. Nothing like this can break the law of the land, it can only be a breach of contract, and since nobody here has signed any contract, no foul.

Discussion of where to illegally obtain items is obviously going to cause problems.

Lets say Tayto crisps have been released yesterday. If they haven't brought Tayto crisps to America, does that mean that Americans are risking prosecution by discussing Tayto crisps?

The very notion that the discussion of such things is illegal is ludicrous.

honru

What if a moderator is unfamiliar with a band and doesn't know if such an album has been leaked? I've seen this happen before on the punk forum and well could have occured on other music forums aswell.

Like I've said before, I agree that posting the actual action of downloading illegally should result in the ban hammer. However, I see no problem with discussion of pre-released material. There's just no solid proof that it was downloaded it illegally.

I've just read that Tool thread, and I agree, it is a prime example of when people cross the line, so to speak.

TheMonster

I can't believe this is even being discussed. What next will we have to scan the receipts of albums and post them in a thread before we are allowed discuss the album. What about hard to find albums? - can they be discussed? I have downloaded some albums that I have tried everywhere to buy(Golden Horde is one) would I be forbidden to discuss this. There is a thread on computers directly naming a torrent site that been closed down - surely that is a lot more risky to boards than discussing an album.

I thinkt the issue here is more to do with the feelings of the mods on a contentious subject. Correct me if am wrong but aren't mods supposed to be impartial and not let their sentiments get in the way of making correct decisions. The mod in this case obviously has a problem with downloading music but this should not come into how he mods the forum.

Karl Hungus

f®eak s&#169 wrote: »

However, I see no problem with discussion of pre-released material. There's just no solid proof that it was downloaded it illegally.

Erm, maybe you're missing something here, but people are blatanting coming along and saying they're downloading. Have you not seen the examples Doctor J quoted? Or Reactor's posts about how he's got no interest in the music, but downloaded it anyway out of spite, and made a show of making it clear he downloaded it?

honru

I just stated that such instances should be dealt with accordingly.

Here's a second thread about the Thom Yorke album over on the Music board, an example that doesn't bring anything questionable to the table with regards to people downloading.

Giblet

I see nothing wrong with that type of discussion unless it turned into a "nudge nudge wink wink" type of affair.

flogen

Giblet wrote:

I see nothing wrong with that type of discussion unless it turned into a "nudge nudge wink wink" type of affair.

Aye, I still remember ages ago (can't remember the forum or even topic) but someone was asking "how did you hear/see this?" and the reply was something like:
"Ah, now. It would be quite naughty of me to reveal risky information like that now wouldn't it?"
Except the sentence "revealed" the name of a website or p2p client that actually offered illegal content, rather than something as tame as what I've hinted at... obviously that kind of thing is just as bad as actually saying the name straight out, or even linking it

John

TheMonster wrote:

I can't believe this is even being discussed. What next will we have to scan the receipts of albums and post them in a thread before we are allowed discuss the album.

No, of course not, don't be so pedantic. I had a problem with that thread because it was blatently discussing an album that (apart from a handful of individuals worldwide) isn't legally available. If an album is out or hard to find, of course it's impossible to tell if you obtained it legally or not but in this case it's clear that no one will have obtained the album legally. I don't care what they allow on other forums on boards.ie as it's only Alt/Indie I'm responsible for.

I thinkt the issue here is more to do with the feelings of the mods on a contentious subject. Correct me if am wrong but aren't mods supposed to be impartial and not let their sentiments get in the way of making correct decisions. The mod in this case obviously has a problem with downloading music but this should not come into how he mods the forum.

I'm just doing what I think is best for the forum. I don't think it is healthy for a music forum to be concentrating on material that is illegally obtained. The album will still be worth discussing next month when it comes out. I would prefer to support all the artists that I like to listen to legally and I would like to see the same for the Alt/Indie forum. Yes the discussion of illegally obtained albums is not a crime in itself but it fosters bad intentions. I'm not trying to be a moral guardian but illegal downloading has its place and it's not on boards.ie.

nesf

Doctor J wrote:

There is no drugs discussion thread.

Ah.. There is... People discuss drugs on here all the time, there just are severe restrictions on what can be discussed. In AH for example you can discuss drugs, drug use and drug abuse but you cannot discuss how to get them, recommended dosages etc etc. Discussing something illegal is fine afaik, it's the planning or aiding someone else in doing something illegal that's the issue. It can be hard to draw the line though.

lordgoat

John2 wrote:

No, of course not, don't be so pedantic. I had a problem with that thread because it was blatently discussing an album that (apart from a handful of individuals worldwide) isn't legally available. If an album is out or hard to find, of course it's impossible to tell if you obtained it legally or not but in this case it's clear that no one will have obtained the album legally. I don't care what they allow on other forums on boards.ie as it's only Alt/Indie I'm responsible for.



I'm just doing what I think is best for the forum. I don't think it is healthy for a music forum to be concentrating on material that is illegally obtained. The album will still be worth discussing next month when it comes out. I would prefer to support all the artists that I like to listen to legally and I would like to see the same for the Alt/Indie forum. Yes the discussion of illegally obtained albums is not a crime in itself but it fosters bad intentions. I'm not trying to be a moral guardian but illegal downloading has its place and it's not on boards.ie.

\


I have to say i think that this i s a disgrace. So basically you can't discuss any music until downloaded in any forum thatyou are a mod of. You're arguing the pointthat you believe that anyone with a copyof the album obtained it illegaly, you can't know this. The fact that you say you're doing whats best for the forum by restricting views that you have a problem with is a joke. That is not moderation. While i do not support illegal downloading to prohibit comment on future releases is laughable. It's like saying reading a newspaper promotes 'insert whatever crime you readabout here' For the record I've been on this site a while and this is the most juvenile piece of moderation i've witnessed.

lordgoat

Cant edit the above post, first sentence should read :

I have to say i think that this i s a disgrace. So basically you can't discuss any music until released in any forum that you [John2]are a mod of

Zombrex

RE*AC*TOR wrote:

There's nothing wrong with digesting things down into points for clarity.

Clarity? This is Boards.ie we are talking about

Not really following exactly the objections here, but I think if someone said

"I've heard the new unrelease U2 album and it's really good"

it would be fine, but saying

"I've heard the new unreleased U2 album, its really good here is how to get it"

would probably be putting Boards.ie in a lot of legal trouble.

But simply admiting on Boards.ie that you have done this shouldn't be.

I mean people imply they have committed a crime on Boards.ie all the time. How does everyone thing people get the latest Lost episodes, or know what taking cocaine is like?

John

I don't think it's laughable at all and if you think it's juvenile well I think that's more of a reflection on you. Obviously I don't know if you've obtained the album legally or not but when the threads are called "New Album Leaked" and every second poster is talking about how they just downloaded an unreleased album, it doesn't take a genius to work it out. I'm not banning discussion of forthcoming albums outright, that's just stupid. I'm not banning the discussion of albums by people who have a promo copy (but bearing in mind that across Ireland, nevermind just boards users, that only a handful at most will have access to a promo copy legally). Here's what I posted in the mods forum:

John2 wrote:

That's what I was doing, I had stepped into a thread about the same album in Alt/Indie and reminded posters that discussion of leaked material wasn't allowed. I left the thread open to talk about leakages in general (as the thread was started to talk about how Radiohead seem to be most unfortunate in terms of leakages). I have no problem with a thread on a forthcoming album for people to post release dates, new news, links to official samples and reviews.

Tell me where am I prohibiting comment on future releases? Not talking about ill gotten gains is not the same as not talking about an upcoming album.

Karl Hungus

Right, I've finally got a reply from the IRMA:

Dear Kenneth

Apologies for the delay in replying.

The only legal action we have been taking against individuals was as a result of these individuals uploading music on P2P services.

If someone admits to downloading illegally, we would still need to get evidence for it to stand in Court.

However, if there is illegal music posted on an Irish website, it is our job to have the music taken down. If you know of such music, I would very much appreciate if you could let us know.

Best regards,

Gaelle Corley
IRMA

This would seem to indicate that boards.ie is safe in the event of a user admitting they downloaded something illegally.

So, prodivided there's no links, and nobody's asking about where to download things, or the thread doesn't end up being too problematic (as the Tool thread was) then go ahead and post about your 'ill gotten gains' as John2 put it.

John

Right, that settles that. I'm going to update the charter appropriately so. I'm not happy about it but once boards is safe I can live with it.

lordgoat

John2 wrote:

Right, that settles that. I'm going to update the charter appropriately so. I'm not happy about it but once boards is safe I can live with it.

Unlock the original thread as well. And for someone with their finger on the pulse and wanting to keep boards out of trouble you may want to read the thread on starting a pirate radio station. Or maybe you don't feel too strongly about that as you do about possible illegal downloaders. joke

honru

Karl Hungus wrote:

So, prodivided there's no links, and nobody's asking about where to download things, or the thread doesn't end up being too problematic (as the Tool thread was) then go ahead and post about your 'ill gotten gains' as John2 put it.

Just to clarify, you're able to discuss the actual music, but with no mention of such terms as "torrent" and "download"?

I wouldn't want to actually read about people downloading illegally.

DeVore

Ok, here is my decision. Its pretty straightforward and since its my ass in the dock I get to make it

I have always run boards.ie with a "YOU OWN YOUR OWN WORDS" policy. Many of you who have been here for some time will remember me wanging on about that phrase before.


Sooooo... if you come along and say "I want to know where to download XYZ illegally" you should get smacked, as currently happens.

If you come along and say "I downloaded XYZ from <torrent link>" similarly you should be smacked for making us part of the process.

If however you say "I downloaded XYZ illegally and it rocks!". Then you are dumb and when the cops come looking for your IP addresses with a disclosure order, we will be more then happy to assist them. We do not and have never offered immunity or anonimity here. Just the same way as if someone admitted murder on the PI forums or threatened a terrorist attack somewhere else.
(actually if someone did that I'd bring it to the cops attention as I did before with a paedo trying to recruit young boys through Boards. With music I'd ignore it until they came to us with the proper disclosure docs... but I digress).

You own your own words and if you are dumb enough to admit you've done something illegal, I hope you get everything you deserve and I wont stand in the way of the law for you.

DeV.

Giblet

I download food to my pc using foodtorrent 3.2

John

lordgoat wrote:

Unlock the original thread as well. And for someone with their finger on the pulse and wanting to keep boards out of trouble you may want to read the thread on starting a pirate radio station. Or maybe you don't feel too strongly about that as you do about possible illegal downloaders. joke

Start a new thread if you want it, that thread is gone well off topic. As for the pirate radio thread, that's a two year old thread on a forum I don't moderate so I don't see what that has to do with me. If you spent more time reading and less time working on your attitude you might have spotted that.

Xcom2

Karl Hungus wrote:

Right, I've finally got a reply from the IRMA:



This would seem to indicate that boards.ie is safe in the event of a user admitting they downloaded something illegally.

So, prodivided there's no links, and nobody's asking about where to download things, or the thread doesn't end up being too problematic (as the Tool thread was) then go ahead and post about your 'ill gotten gains' as John2 put it.

Just wondering,

What did you ask IRMA in your original email?