So we're running just as fast as we can, holding onto one anothers hand

fuzzbox

PP 6-max 3/6
Two villains
I began the session thinking that button was a solid aggro guy, but I have changed my mind. I think he is a bit of a muppet. I'm on several of his tables, and he has done many a stupid thing. He's the mark really.
BB villain is a reg, and seems solid enough. I have some notes on him, but I dont remember what they were.

BB has 1500
I have 1000
Button has 450

Preflop
Folded to button, who makes it 21, I call with 44, in the SB, BB calls.

Flop (63)
Ts 4d 2s
I lead for 40, BB calls, button makes it 273, hero???

I have about 1k behind, and BB has me covered. Button is clearly all-in already ... so what do we do here ?

brianmc

push?

Ste05

I think I just push as well. Any other type of raise and you're either pot committed or giving the BB odds to call for his flush. So just take the BB's stack and move onto the next hand.

If the BB has TT, then it's just not meant to be.

ntlbell

These thread titles are really fecking annoying fuzz!!

El Stuntman

shove shove shove

pok3rplaya

call to try and string BB along/entice an aggressive move out of him.
He'll probably cop what you have though.

patmac

ntlbell wrote:

These thread titles are really fecking annoying fuzz!!

Everytime I read one of these titles some obscure song reaches out from the back of my brain and stays in my head for the rest of the morning, unfair!

ocallagh

Such a shame button has no money left... You want the BB in this hand but if you raise he's gone in a flash. What can he call with here that makes sense?

Also, what does he think you have? He knows the button is an idiot.. and he probably knows you know that too! So your range is a bit wider than usual here. But still, you're not calling 233 without something! You could call 233 and hope BB pushes to isolate against the button (very slim chance of this happening actually...) and the problem with this approach is you are giving him a cheap look at the turn (if he's on the flush draw).. and you won't make any more out of him if he misses. So, for a pot worth a potential 900+ you're giving BB a turn for 233... i haven't done my maths but it sounds like a bad option to me.

so, I think I push and hope beyond hope that BB calls with an OP.

brianmc

ocallagh wrote:

so, I think I push and hope beyond hope that BB calls with an OP.

This is what I'm thinking too. I'm a bit worried about the BB though. What did he call with???

I thinking pushing is the only realistic chance you have of pushing the BB off a flush draw and still maintaining the chance that he could call with a worse hand than yours. I'm hoping a push looks an attempt at isolation, but I don't think there's much chance really.

fuzzbox

ocallagh :-
If I call - pot would be :-

273 (me) + 273 (muppet) + 40 (villains call of my bet) + 63 (pot preflop) = 649.

He would have to call 233 to win 649, and thus would be getting 2.75:1 or something similar to that. This is insufficent if he has a fd.

Do I want to keep him in like this, knowing that he is getting bad odds? Am I leaking implied odds here, being oop with a set, on a danger board.

hmmmmmm

brianmc

minraise?

fuzzbox

brianmc wrote:

minraise?

Thats the same as push.

its call or push I think.

careca

ntlbell wrote:

These thread titles are really fecking annoying fuzz!!

Because I started going to the 'hops' in the eighties, I actually liked fuzz's lyrics themes. But Tiffany ffs. Pushing it a bit.

Mind you ,I would have given her one at the time

ianmc38

careca wrote:

Mind you ,I would have given her one at the time

Hard times in the 80s alright.

careca

The gambler in me would call and hope he comes along with a fd. If it doesn't come on the turn I would go all in and be happy whatever he does.

If it does come , now thats a different kettle of fish.

brianmc

fuzzbox wrote:

Thats the same as push.

its call or push I think.

I know

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

ocallagh :-
If I call - pot would be :-

273 (me) + 273 (muppet) + 40 (villains call of my bet) + 63 (pot preflop) = 649.

He would have to call 233 to win 649, and thus would be getting 2.75:1 or something similar to that. This is insufficent if he has a fd.

Do I want to keep him in like this, knowing that he is getting bad odds? Am I leaking implied odds here, being oop with a set, on a danger board.

hmmmmmm

No I don’t think your leaking implied odds here at all and I thin the correct play here is infact to flat call .he needs 4:1 to be correct to draw to his flush on the turn and his getting 2.75:1.he does have implied odds but the fact is that his implied odds don’t come with out a risk.
Suppose he does flush on the turn, you will have ten outs to fill up on the river.
It means you can call a bet anything up to 245 (getting 4:1) to see the river.
If he makes a bet higher than that then your in trouble but then again depending on how much higher the bet is you may be correct in calling in based on your implied odds.i mean he is deffo not gonna let his flush go on the river for 300/400 bet when the pot is 1700+ is he?
This is a weird but interesting situation or maybe its just weird to me !

ocallagh

fuzzbox wrote:

ocallagh :-
If I call - pot would be :-

273 (me) + 273 (muppet) + 40 (villains call of my bet) + 63 (pot preflop) = 649.

He would have to call 233 to win 649, and thus would be getting 2.75:1 or something similar to that. This is insufficent if he has a fd.

Do I want to keep him in like this, knowing that he is getting bad odds? Am I leaking implied odds here, being oop with a set, on a danger board.

hmmmmmm

Ok 649, but we can assume button is getting the rest of his cash in here.. so I kinda stuck it all together :) closer to 1k now.

If you call the flop you have to bet the turn as you don't want to give the BB two free cards. So checking the flop and then betting the turn doesn't really give you an advantage... I'm probably pushing this on the flop the more I think of it.

Gholimoli

ocallagh wrote:

Ok 649, but we can assume button is getting the rest of his cash in here.. so I kinda stuck it all together :) closer to 1k now.

If you call the flop you have to bet the turn as you don't want to give the BB two free cards. So checking the flop and then betting the turn doesn't really give you an advantage... I'm probably pushing this on the flop the more I think of it.

he can bet a none flush turn and check/call a flush turn.

AmarilloFats

careca wrote:

Because I started going to the 'hops' in the eighties, I actually liked fuzz's lyrics themes. But Tiffany ffs. Pushing it a bit.

Mind you ,I would have given her one at the time

Wasn't it Belinda Carlisle?
IF BB has any read on you what so ever a call here screams SET...A push widens your range a little..Push

Gholimoli

am i wrong in thinking a push here will only get called by a hand that has us beat?

ocallagh

Gholimoli wrote:

he can bet a none flush turn and check/call a flush turn.

But if he bets a none flush turn the BB is priced out.. so we end up winning the same amount with added risk.

Gholimoli

ocallagh wrote:

But if he bets a none flush turn the BB is priced out.. so we end up winning the same amount with added risk.

the fact is BB is not getting correct odds is making the call as things are.
he is missing odds.he may have impplied odds but as i said again we can still fill up so i dont think we are loosing value in keeping him in the pot here.
if BB misses his flush on turn and dosent continue on,he has already made a mistake by calling the flop bet.if he does continue on after missing on turn then even better.if he gets his flush on turn we still have the river.
that cant be bad for us!

fuzzbox

ocallagh wrote:

But if he bets a none flush turn the BB is priced out.. so we end up winning the same amount with added risk.

We would get 243 more from BB on the flop if this is true ... and thats not to be sniffed at.

5starpool

AmarilloFats wrote:

Wasn't it Belinda Carlisle?

Hang your head in shame and do a bit of 80's immersion as punishment. For pennance listen to a Bangles album and a Smiths album and watch 'Reeling in the Years' 1980-1989.

pok3rplaya

calling a flop raise that big looks confused, possibly weak play.

fuzzbox

I will hear no ill spoken of Suzanna Hoffs

ntlbell

AmarilloFats wrote:

Wasn't it Belinda Carlisle?

The single cover with tiffany on the front of it didn't give you any hints no ?


I push, especially if that song was on in the background!

ocallagh

fuzzbox wrote:

We would get 243 more from BB on the flop if this is true ... and thats not to be sniffed at.

Will the button fold the turn if the flush hits?

mewso

Wow I must be dozing off again. I thought we were on the flop here so isn't 2.75:1 good enough for a fd to call?

fuzzbox

musician wrote:

Wow I must be dozing off again. I thought we were on the flop here so isn't 2.75:1 good enough for a fd to call?

No, because there is money left to bet. He only gets to see 1 card for that price.

fuzzbox

ocallagh wrote:

Will the button fold the turn if the flush hits?

Its hard to see button folding here, regardless of what happens next.

Whenver I call here, the flush hits, whenever I push here, the guy folds and the flush misses.

ocallagh

call and min-raise the turn:)

Ste05

A call here is terrible IMO, if you include the BB's implied odds he is definitely getting the odds to call.

Here's a question for you if the flush completes do you call a half pot bet on the turn from the BB?? Even though your odds on hitting a FH on the River is 3.6:1. You're risking this whole pot (including the button's last ~180) for a measly $233.

The only way you are stacking the BB is if a flush completes and you get a FH, and even then he'll probably be able to get away from it.

I think a call here is crazy.. Take the Button's last ~180, be happy about it and allow the BB to gamble it up if he wants.

EDIT: That's all kind of too definite about the BB having a FD, but this has to be the most likely hand he has and I just don't think it's worth it.

fuzzbox

Results:
Well Im still not sure what the best play is. In the hand in question, I pushed, and bb folded, and muppet called off his stack. He had ATo, the turn was a T (filling me up, but giving him outs) and the river was a blank and MHIG.

Im still in two minds about what to do.

ntlbell

The button obviously doesn't read boards.

peeko

fuzzbox wrote:

the river was a blank and MHIG.

where do you guys keep coming up with these acronyms? It's taking me more time to decode them than it's saving you time writing them

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/MHIG

Hectorjelly

peeko wrote:

where do you guys keep coming up with these acronyms? It's taking me more time to decode them than it's saving you time writing them

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/MHIG

IBAFA

peeko

google has no answers to that

kinaldo

patmac wrote:

Everytime I read one of these titles some obscure song reaches out from the back of my brain and stays in my head for the rest of the morning, unfair!

obscure? surely u don't mean tiffany or joy division