Are Women Trained as Men?

Black Swan

Something that has been coming up in discussions among martial arts instructors and students in the States: "Are women trained as men?"

Now guys, you must admit that when girls first show up for white belt instruction, most of them can do the leg stretches better than the guys. They are built different, and hinged different than guys. If this is so, then why is the instruction given them standardized for both males and females?

The leg is a girl's strongest appendage, and if they are generally more flexible than the guys, then why not put more emphasis on training girls to kick? Like roundhouses, front snaps, tornados, arc kicks, reverse spin kicks, axe kicks, etc.

Another thing. Most girls have thin arms and wrists and will not become Million Dollar Babies no matter how hard you push them to punch. Yet I see instructors insisting on standardized training, with the same emphasis on punching, not differentiating between males and females.

Not only that, if we are talking self-defense for women in the streets, we are normally pitting a smaller, lighter, less strong girl against a male attacker (not another female). If she can run and get away, that's the first option we train. But girls are not always given that choice. Sometimes they have to hit, then run. Or in the worst possible case, they are cornered and not given the option to run and must fight. Would you train them the same as the larger, stronger, more powerful males?

So to those reading this post:

1) If you are a martial arts instructor, do you standardize your instruction for both males and females most of the time, or do you recognize the major differences between the sexes and train accordingly? Or do you feel that a belt is a belt, and both men and women have to measure up to the same standards? Or some other thoughts besides these options given?

2) If you are a female student of a martial art, what are your feelings about how you are being trained?

3) If you are a male student of a martial art, what are your feelings about how your female counterparts should be trained?

RedRaven

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Something that has been coming up in discussions among martial arts instructors and students in the States: "Are women trained as men?"

Now guys, you must admit that when girls first show up for white belt instruction, most of them can do the leg stretches better than the guys. They are built different, and hinged different than guys. If this is so, then why is the instruction given them standardized for both males and females?

The leg is a girl's strongest appendage, and if they are generally more flexible than the guys, then why not put more emphasis on training girls to kick? Like roundhouses, front snaps, tornados, arc kicks, reverse spin kicks, axe kicks, etc.

Another thing. Most girls have thin arms and wrists and will not become Million Dollar Babies no matter how hard you push them to punch. Yet I see instructors insisting on standardized training, with the same emphasis on punching, not differentiating between males and females.

Not only that, if we are talking self-defense for women in the streets, we are normally pitting a smaller, lighter, less strong girl against a male attacker (not another female). If she can run and get away, that's the first option we train. But girls are not always given that choice. Sometimes they have to hit, then run. Or in the worst possible case, they are cornered and not given the option to run and must fight. Would you train them the same as the larger, stronger, more powerful males?

So to those reading this post:

1) If you are a martial arts instructor, do you standardize your instruction for both males and females most of the time, or do you recognize the major differences between the sexes and train accordingly? Or do you feel that a belt is a belt, and both men and women have to measure up to the same standards? Or some other thoughts besides these options given?

2) If you are a female student of a martial art, what are your feelings about how you are being trained?

3) If you are a male student of a martial art, what are your feelings about how your female counterparts should be trained?

We have a couple of girls in our club and they train in all aspects of Thai with the guys no problem!!

Kent Brockman

This is tricky.
Obviously it is better for the female students to train with/fight against the males as it is more likely to be a man who would attacking them and they would at least have some experience of defending themselves or escaping the clutches of a larger stronger attacker.
However, from personal experience I dont fight as hard against the female students as I would against the guys, and while I am not trying to hurt anyone I am certainly more careful about not hurting the girls.
So in fact the girls may not be getting the real picture in so far as being attacked by a really aggressive attacker.
Also Some of the guys are a little embarassed about rolling with the girls and find it a surreal situation.
They would never attack a female and would only defend against a female assailant so it doesn't feel right for them to try and overpower/submit a female.
As i said its a tricky one but there is absolutely no reason a female cant be equally as good as or better at bjj than a male.
Just my present view point.

Colm_OReilly

Psyhiological, the differences between male and female humans are far less than most other species, inlcuding our closest genetic relatives.

Both genders have the same sort of reaction to exercise stimulus, and develop in the same way. And before puberty there's essentially no difference between the two.

crazy monkey

In regards to how women are trained I've a few different coaches who have vaaried reactions to training women.
In Kempo my coach treated the female students a little girls really- little girls.
My Tae Kwon Do coach treated them like athletes he was a great motivator and everyone male and female always enjoyed trainiing with him.
My BJJ coaach coach and treats everyone with respect and offers advice that's most practical in terms of techniques and what applies to the persons [male and female] body size and shape.
In regards to how I train with women.
I have had my ass handed to me on numerous occassions by male and female opponents in training and never once thought about gender I just thought next time I'll make you tap....and thanks for the spar/roll!!!
I must admit too that I am an old fashioned boy and while I never wish to hurt a training partner I really do ease up on strenght and work more for technique when I spar/roll with women...maybe it is this fact that allows them to tap me so regularly....I have to stop treating women with regard and be all manly when training with them....

Just kidding!!!

It's great to have women in a class - not just being sleazy, as women in martial arts classes can be light relief - for the eyes, but also in the fact that every person brings something different to training and the more opinions/attitudes/ideas and perspectives the better training is for the mind, in my opinion.

Hope I have not bored too many people.

Have a nice!!!

Remember one thing always - make sweet sweet monkey love!!!!

The Shane

In any sort of ( god help me) alive martial art, techniques are laid out for the individual and and they create a style of their own. Truly standardised training shouldn't occur. I have certain go to moves that I use under pressure nad my "game" looks quite different to other guys in the club.


It is the sparring portion of any martial art that should create your style, not what you have been shown. In terms of coaches adapting to every single student (bear in mind there are quite a few sub 60 fighters out there, who are not as strong as the plus 92's and all shades in between), I think it would be timeconsuming. It's better that you show techniques in some sort of learning curve sequence then deal with minor technical variations as they crop up.

In an environment like that... I don't think you'd have a problem.

Roper

There's no need to differentiate between each one. A good technique is the same no matter what size, weight or body type a person has. Then the person decides whether that techniques fits their game by using it 'live'.

By the OP's reckoning, I'd have to coach every single member differently as each of them have different body types. I've tall and small guys and girls.

Blue Lagoon wrote:

Another thing. Most girls have thin arms and wrists and will not become Million Dollar Babies no matter how hard you push them to punch.

A woman's wrist is not PROPORTIONATELY thinner than a mans. So that doesn't hold up. Providing the girl is anatomically proportionate (and I like it when they are...rrrruff:D) then a 65kgs girl's wrist will be able to support her body being put behind a punch just as well as a 100kg's mans will, maybe better.

john kavanagh

short answer - yes for the most part

you sound like your more talking about 'form' martial arts (tornados, arc kicks, reverse spin kicks, axe kicks, etc.) - there's no reason a girl wont be as good if not better than guys at gymnastic-routine style training

as for 'function' MA - you talk about girls limitations in boxing. to put it in perspective connor ahearns all 58kgs of him regularily drops TRAINED boxers over 80kgs with body shots:D

technical knowledge plus progressive resistance = functional ability

here's a 53kg girl cleaning 100kgs - i can barely do this with 70kgs and i'm fairly fit and strong:D

impossible is nothing

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

as for 'function' MA - you talk about girls limitations in boxing. to put it in perspective connor ahearns all 58kgs of him regularily drops TRAINED boxers over 80kgs with body shots:D

tell me more about this....surely boxers have been training functional since day one?

what is he doing different to drop 80 kg boxers? and why are they not dropping him...after all boxers have only a few punches to master?

myself personally...maybe this is BS and I ll be proved wrong...i believe in the power of the mind, and I made a decision to not let body shots hurt too much(in an alive manner hitting me....me not standing with my hands on my head waiting for one)..... that the shot would bounce like water off me. since I done that.... they hardly bother me.!

maybe its just brute ignorance...but I am like... tickle me!!! you'll not drop me to the body!!! and ya know...it works!!! and I am 81 kg right now!

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

what is he doing different to drop 80 kg boxers? and why are they not dropping him...after all boxers have only a few punches to master?

for the same reason a professional light weight champion would drop an amatuer heavyweight 'part-timer'. better technique and superior training methods, he's on the elite High Performance team.

Millionaire wrote:

I made a decision to not let body shots hurt too much

i wonder why more pro-boxers dont just 'decide' to do this. do a couple of rounds of body shots only sparring with Ricky Hatton and your 'decision' might be changed lol! i'd says its more to do with the quality of your sparring partners body shot technique as opposed to 'will power'

Niall Keane

"do a couple of rounds of body shots only sparring with Ricky Hatton and your 'decision' might be changed lol!"

That lad is indeed a god when it comes to body shots, and one of the most exciting fighters of any dicipline, imo.
And from my own experience, bloody someones nose and they fight back with avengance, knock them out but not for the 10 and they dance around, regain composure and fight back harder, but body shots, they simply sap the intent, destroy the engine and break your opponents will to fight!

Millionaire

aye, I suppose Hatton hitting me would put a different slant on it! LOL!!!

I was thinking of it in my own world...I forgot about the pro boxers!

There is top quality guys in this camp, this camp Nong Kee Pathuyuth, top champs
like Nampon and Naubukan (both fought Deeker) came from, plus many other thai
champs, and a thai olympic boxer. most are full time fighters...its their job...if you do
not win...you do not eat!

Having said that, its still full time Thai boxers I am sparring with, who are fighting every few weeks. so they can pack a major punch.
I got a bang yesterday right on the jaw, and the legs went jelly for a sec or two! I was kind of suprised...its been a long time since i had that happen! and ya never see the punch coming.

they slaughter me when Thai sparring, but hands only I can hold me own. not saying I can beat them...but I do ok.. considering their training twice a day since about 7 years old, and I am a slowing up ex piss head!

Though making this decision, has certainly improved my ability to take a hard body shot.
I did not say..it did not hurt... I have imporved my ability to keep moving. (and make up for my glass jaw LOL!!!)

Is this lad your student? I am not up date on whos a top guys in the combat sport world.

yeah, better training methods and top coaching, make the difference. i reckon the fighters over here could do improvde their game by with better training methods. like how they run, more motivation from trainers, better hand skills, weight conditioning, diet etc etc. sometimes i am suprised how kind of laid back the training can be some days. but then again, this camp had top champs... maybe I am missing something???!?!??? this is Thailand, you never get a clear cut answer over here!

I daren't open my mouth on that one though...they would not be too happy with a foreigner saying they could improve their national sport betters. bit like a Thai, trying to tell DJ Carey how to hit the hurl better! LOL!!!!

Main thing is I am learning more, expanding my horizons away from my SD mindest, and having fun!

Unpossible

hey would not be too happy with a foreigner saying they could improve their national sport betters

lol, I have this image of a westerner standing in a corner of a gym talking to his coach, in the background a dozen or so Thai's are working out, then;

Millionare: No look this is all wrong, you have to stretch everyday, and your punches need to be changed, and whats with your knees?.....

gym: ......................
everyone stops in the middle of what they are doing and just stares, their faces showing a mixture of disbelief and rage. Except for Ling the "odd" fella who is giving you that strange smile again.



Anyway on topic, I think it depends on the sport. Also just because a woman isn't naturally good at punching doesn't mean she should not bother spending time to improve it.

Black Swan

Unpossible wrote:

Anyway on topic, I think it depends on the sport. Also just because a woman isn't naturally good at punching doesn't mean she should not bother spending time to improve it.

Agree. Like we still teach women to punch, but recognize that most of these women who take martial arts do not want to develop themselves into men in strength or looks. But to expect the typical female student of martial arts to go nose to nose with a larger, heavier, and stronger male with her fists (mostly) does not seem realistic. Sure, the (fictional film) Million Dollar Baby could deck most of them, but we have never had one of those women for real as a student. We have produced several very fast and skillful female kickers, if cornered, and not allowed to run, or hit and run, could give most lesser skilled males a good fight, perhaps dropping a few of them with below the belt kicks and head shots. Roughly, over time, we train men 40/60 (40% arms; 60% legs) and women 30/70. And in the case of women, the punching and arm blocks are often used in combination to set-up kicks with their stronger and longer legs.

Like don't get the idea that we baby our women in training. They are required to pair up with men in sparring practice as often as members of their own gender. We do have a problem that has been difficult to manage, and that occurs when the males pull their punches and kicks when fighting their female counterparts. Their knightly behavior does not help a female prepare to fight a male in the streets.

Unpossible

What are you teaching (if you dont mind me asking), is it kickboxing* or one of those combat/self defence classes?



*edit: or a sports orientated martial art

Black Swan

Unpossible wrote:

What are you teaching (if you dont mind me asking), is it kickboxing or one of those combat/self defence classes?

Our main stay is WTF/TKD, with a heavy emphasis on sparring. We have a competition team of about 25 advanced belts that competes often. We also have several members that fight in "opens," competing against several different arts at the same event (Shotokan, Kempo, TKD, Kung Fu, etc.) perhaps similar to your MMA events.

In addition to TKD, we dedicate an equal amount of time to SD in our training curriculum. There is a good reason for this, being in the LA metropolitan area of 14 million people, and with a nearby city reported to have over 17,000 gang members.

Roper

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

We also have several members that fight in "opens," competing against several different arts at the same event (Shotokan, Kempo, TKD, Kung Fu, etc.) perhaps similar to your MMA events.

Not really. Open events are different to MMA events. You've described 4 stand-up arts there so I think you're talking about open stand-up tournaments, usually semi-contact. Maybe I'm wrong though. In these events are the competitors allowed to take their opponent down and hit a hard as they want?

Bridgestone Man

Hi B L,

In referance to how we treat women in our gym, in the beginners class I would have to say that we train female beginners and male beginners and recognise some of the differences mentioned by yourself and can be utilised by both sexes in referance to their attributes. In Muay Thai as most of the power of a kick is derived from the hip, a women, who have stronger hips than their male friends on a pound per pound basis and if technically adept should kick harder than the male but in upper body strenght for grapple and punching the male should win out but I have found some that upset this nice theory.

In the fighters class though we train fighters, so gender does not come into it, its now down to weight catagory, skill and most of all heart. One of our novice fighters training hard for her first fight had her nose broken by one of her male sparring mates. This was a make or break moment for her as it was a shock to the system and a reality check for what can happen in a contact sport. Fight was only 4 weeks away so I thought There was a chance I might not see her again as some novice it might make them decide this aint for them, male or female. But the following week she was back in pleading with me to let the fight go ahead. Needless to say I said no but I knew I had a fighter on my hands. She now has 3 pro Muay Thai fights, with 3 wins under her belt and spars with guys of 86 to 90 kg even though she is only 57kg giving and taking it with the best. So I dont think male and females, with all their varying attributes, should be treated much different when training as it come down to heart, some people have it some dont, gender dont decide it.

I might be old fashioned but in the fighters class I treat them as fighters but out of them gym I treat them them as ladies. Nuff said , apologies if I bored any one.

Regards,
Paul Kelly,
THE BRIDGESTONE MUAY THAI GYM.

Black Swan

Roper wrote:

Not really. Open events are different to MMA events. You've described 4 stand-up arts there so I think you're talking about open stand-up tournaments, usually semi-contact. Maybe I'm wrong though. In these events are the competitors allowed to take their opponent down and hit a hard as they want?

Ahhhh, yes, like I see the difference. Our "opens," sometimes mis-named "Karate Opens," are all stand up fights. No grappling, chokes, pins, or strikes after the opponent is down.

Semi-contact? I have to laugh with this terminology (please, no offense to you). When a BB competitor fights here (except for the juniors below age 14), it's been my experience as a fighter, judge and ref, that it is full-contact when they kick or punch, no matter what they happen to call it in the rules, WTF, CTA, or whatever.

Now, if by "full-contact" you are referring to the KO or TKO requirement to win, then you are correct in assuming that our WTF, CTA, or "Open" tournaments do not require that.

Black Swan

Bridgestone Man wrote:

Hi B L,
In referance to how we treat women in our gym, in the beginners class I would have to say that we train female beginners and male beginners and recognise some of the differences mentioned by yourself and can be utilised by both sexes in referance to their attributes. In Muay Thai as most of the power of a kick is derived from the hip, a women, who have stronger hips than their male friends on a pound per pound basis and if technically adept should kick harder than the male but in upper body strenght for grapple and punching the male should win out but I have found some that upset this nice theory.

This would be consistent with our observations of the differences between adult males and females.

Roper

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Ahhhh, yes, like I see the difference. Our "opens," sometimes mis-named "Karate Opens," are all stand up fights. No grappling, chokes, pins, or strikes after the opponent is down.

Semi-contact? I have to laugh with this terminology (please, no offense to you). When a BB competitor fights here (except for the juniors below age 14), it's been my experience as a fighter, judge and ref, that it is full-contact when they kick or punch, no matter what they happen to call it in the rules, WTF, CTA, or whatever.

Now, if by "full-contact" you are referring to the KO or TKO requirement to win, then you are correct in assuming that our WTF, CTA, or "Open" tournaments do not require that.

Yeah thats pretty much what I thought, No offence taken by the way!:D If you can't win by KO then its not full contact. I don't like the terminology either but thats the way it is.

Cabelo

Another pertinent question, am I trained as a woman?

LAAngel

Devestated, wrote a big reply and it didn't post. Here goes again.

I thought I'd give my view as a female fighter. I regularly train with male fighters, and in some ways I prefer it. I don't agree that girls are usually better at kicks than punches as I know a few male fighters that have amazing flexiblity and can do great kicks, I also know quite a few female fighters that prefer to use there hands, I for one am one of those people. When it comes to fighting I'm alot better with my hands, eventhough I am flexible and can do the spilts, I have alot more power in my hands. I find it benifical to fight men because they are usually bigger than me (I'm 5ft5 and 59kgs) and stronger and I learn how to fight someone that is bigger and that can give me a good fight. I do agree that some men go easy on a female although I usually hit them a few jabs to the nose and tell them to step up their game, cause there not doing me or themselves any favors by going easy. And I'm am one out of two females that prefer light contant I usually have to fight the males in the club, although there is alot of semi contact female fighters in our club.

As for being attacked, a few years ago my fella was jumped outside a club by 6 men and was kicked to the ground, I was still in the club getting my coat, he managed to escape and when I went outside the club the fella that started it all was there and he started shouting at me that my boyfriend was a 'pansie' I shouted back that he was such a 'big man' that he needed a group to fight him. At that point he pushed me up against a window (I couldn't run) and ripped the bag from my shoulders so I punched him in the jaw (he was 6ft 4) he told me I wouldn't do that again so I punched him twice more and broke his jaw and MY hand. that point two bouncers came and got him away. So I feel that in that sense fighting other male really helped, and was glad that in my club you reqularly fight both men and women as I do know a club that doesn't allow this and they focus more ontheir male fighters.