Weak calling?

RianANPoker

I've been knocked out of two tournaments a while agow hen my AK All in preflop (modest stack but in bubble territtory) when I get called by someone holding 66. My thinking on this is . If the guy puts me on overcards he placing most of his chips (as was the case both times) on a marginal call. If a pair well he's beat already. Turns out BOTH times they hit a set, but I feel both calls were weak. I didn't say it of course but I thought it both times.
I dunno when I get AK I push (of course position has to be good plus no other big raises) but why do these guys call. Is it a good play on their part or am I thinking about this game totally assways.....btw My range in both were not very wide, plus I don't like to creep into the money, I like to have a win chance or nothing.

RianANPoker

I know I know wrong folder sorry

Waylander

It depends what kind of stacks the callers had. If they were large stacked any you were modest, they may have felt it was a fair chance to take a player out and for them to progress towards the money. If they were shortstacked they may have felt they had to make a play to double up or the blinds would eat them. The middle stacks should not really be making a call with 66 for a large percentage or their entire stacks.

mewso

As waylander said if it's not too expensive then it's the right play to call you and race imo. Also I know the higher pairs will block your AK from hitting a str8 etc. but in general terms a low pair is just as good against AK as a high pair. Anyway I've moved your question into the main thoroughfare where more abuse and advice can ensue.

RianANPoker

musician wrote:

As waylander said if it's not too expensive then it's the right play to call you and race imo. Also I know the higher pairs will block your AK from hitting a str8 etc. but in general terms a low pair is just as good against AK as a high pair. Anyway I've moved your question into the main thoroughfare where more abuse and advice can ensue.

Stangely enough both of em were mid stacked and the call was 70- 80% of their stack. Surely to raise all in with low pair is ok but to call in ALL in is weak, well in my opinion anyway, I havn't read any of the poker books out there but I'm using basic maths and I think to call an at best 52/ 48 ish pot for most of your stack is weak. Well I wouldn't do it myself....maybe I should more often, threw down 44 agianst an all in in the paddy power 300 side event when down to 27 (money) some other guy called with AJ agianst Aq flop 44K....can't remembr who won it as I was too busy throwing up :-)

Norwich Fan Rob

u are correct in your thinking, its wrong to call a large portion of ones stack off with a small pair.

mewso

I agree it's a bit reckless for 70%+ of your stack. It's a common mistake to call with hands that are fine to be first to raise with but that should be thrown away to that kind of raise. I've lost count of the amount of times my push has been called by KQ when they are comfortably stacked.

Hectorjelly

if they are getting 2:1 and you have a relatively tight range that includes AK they are correct to call

mewso

Lets give RianANPoker some credit. Unless he has let his stack drop to the blinds combined in total 2:1 is unlikely. I hope/assume RianANPoker that you were not pushing with less than 4/5 times the BB+SB?

RianANPoker

Lads im not stupid i said my allin was 70% of their stack approx. if i was short stacked i wouldnt even post this? i was middle as where they a little more...my thinking is that some people call a slightly shoter stack and thin because they are not exctly all in, its a good call....

Hectorjelly

if they raise to 30% of their stack and then you reraise all in then they will be getting almost exactly 2:1

RianANPoker

Hectorjelly wrote:

if they raise to 30% of their stack and then you reraise all in then they will be getting almost exactly 2:1

I give in! I thought it was a simple question....I think Rob Norwich understood

Hectorjelly

RianANPoker wrote:

I give in! I thought it was a simple question....I think Rob Norwich understood

You mean he gave you the answer you wanted.

What your saying is correct to a certain extent, all things being even there is no need to get involved with small pairs against someone with a tight range as you are either flipping or dominated. But the thing is its not really a coin flip, a pair has a small but not negiligble edge. So in a situation like the following, a player is correct to call.

Player A raises on the button with a pair. Any pair, it doesnt really matter from 22 to JJ. Player B raises all in. If Player B has about 10-12 blinds it likely that the all in will be giving Player A odds of close to 2:1, depending on the other players action and the size of the blinds. If player B has a range of AA, KK or AK, then 66 will win a whopping 40% of the time - making a fold very bad. Its much easier to have AK than AA or KK.

Waylander

Fair enough HJ, but the times you call and run into a higher pair will take that small edge away.

mewso

Thats fine HJ but I honestly think that the question being asked was a simple case of all-in and call not raise, all-in, call. Seemed so to me anyway. Any excuse to preach maths if you ask me

RianANPoker

Quote-You mean he gave you the answer you wanted.?

Well that comment is a bit unfair mr Jelly. I meant my question was straightforward. I gave the basic maths and wondered who would call in that situation. I've an idea of what to do in each different 'what if' scenario but I'm just trying to get a feel for what you guys (apparently good players) would do in this situation. I'm not looking to be proved right or wrong here. I already know from other posts that my game is not top notch but I do ok for a 1st year player on the dub circuit. Maybe this board is a bad idea for me as I appear to get criticised rather than cirtiqued. Think I refrain from posting for now and just read the occasional entertain posts I see hear.

thanks folks for your help and good luck with your games....my middle notch game will see you around.

Culchie

RianANPoker wrote:

Quote-You mean he gave you the answer you wanted.?

Well that comment is a bit unfair mr Jelly. I meant my question was straightforward. I gave the basic maths and wondered who would call in that situation. I've an idea of what to do in each different 'what if' scenario but I'm just trying to get a feel for what you guys (apparently good players) would do in this situation. I'm not looking to be proved right or wrong here. I already know from other posts that my game is not top notch but I do ok for a 1st year player on the dub circuit. Maybe this board is a bad idea for me as I appear to get criticised rather than cirtiqued. Think I refrain from posting for now and just read the occasional entertain posts I see hear.

thanks folks for your help and good luck with your games....my middle notch game will see you around.

Rian,

Stick around.

The point of having a discussion is to have just that, and this thread is tame compared to many beforehand.

Poker players, especially good ones are opinionated by nature, so naturally it gets tetchy from time to time.

Your query isn't just about maths either, it's also about working out the amount of times they have AK versus the amount of times there's an overpair etc....

Sometimes it's right to call, sometimes it's not, that can depend on payout structure, your relative strength to the field, image of villian etc...

As you siad yourself in a classic quote if poker was just about maths we'd all "be champions of our own cul-de-sac"

Hectorjelly

Waylander wrote:

Fair enough HJ, but the times you call and run into a higher pair will take that small edge away.

?????????????????????????? Late night?

Hectorjelly

musician wrote:

Thats fine HJ but I honestly think that the question being asked was a simple case of all-in and call not raise, all-in, call. Seemed so to me anyway. Any excuse to preach maths if you ask me

If he just open pushed then a call with 66 is reasnable for other reasons. Would he really just push with AA/KK? Or more importantly do his opponents think he would

mewso

Hectorjelly wrote:

If he just open pushed then a call with 66 is reasnable for other reasons. Would he really just push with AA/KK? Or more importantly do his opponents think he would

If I have a big stack I'll throw it away.

Hectorjelly

musician wrote:

If I have a big stack I'll throw it away.

even if you think he has AK?

RianANPoker

Culchie wrote:

Rian,

Stick around.

The point of having a discussion is to have just that, and this thread is tame compared to many beforehand.

Poker players, especially good ones are opinionated by nature, so naturally it gets tetchy from time to time.

Your query isn't just about maths either, it's also about working out the amount of times they have AK versus the amount of times there's an overpair etc....

Sometimes it's right to call, sometimes it's not, that can depend on payout structure, your relative strength to the field, image of villian etc...

As you siad yourself in a classic quote if poker was just about maths we'd all "be champions of our own cul-de-sac"

Well dude don't worry I'm not that sensitive I just don't fancy the debates on the subject. It's like when I ask the other half what wrong with her today...I only want to hear what is actually wrong ! Not her ble'din life story. I think this forum can be amusing and informative but maybe I'm not ready for the hand analysis part of it....Me heads wrecked trying to figure it out, If the Q was a K she's be straight etc..... I'll stick around on it but I'll leave out the advice questions, the only one I ever listened to anyway was me granny...(respect gran) god rest her, she knew James Connolly personally and her brother bate the crp out of a certain mercency B&T soldier. (name withheld).. so that makes her the coolest person I've ever met. Sorry I digress. ALL IN!

mewso

Hectorjelly wrote:

even if you think he has AK?

If it's as described - in bubble territory and I have a big stack then yes I'll probably throw it away. If it's 70% of my stack then he is not so short stacked that he needs to push with any 2 cards so I'll err on the side of caution.

mewso

RianANPoker wrote:

Well dude don't worry I'm not that sensitive I just don't fancy the debates on the subject.

Well if you decide to pose a question again try and give more information on the exact circumstances of the hand. I've been speculating on the circumstances based on the description you gave.

RianANPoker

musician wrote:

Well if you decide to pose a question again try and give more information on the exact circumstances of the hand. I've been speculating on the circumstances based on the description you gave.

Please see my 1st my 1st post.

Bubble territiory - mid stack- I went all in - Called for 70% of his stack.. He hits a set...that's it nothing else fancy happened. I didn't pre raise , he didn't raise, I went all in.
I think my mistake was going all in, then this thread would never have happened and I'd be free, free.
on the plus side...At least I've learned how to wash my cards. I've also cleaned my drivers licence using the advice shown. thanks for that. I've a full clean licence now.

I have a photo of me biting me fingernails if you want it with Tony Cas'carino (smelly feet, pink t-shirt) in the background...

brianmc

RianANPoker wrote:

Please see my 1st my 1st post.

Bubble territiory - mid stack- I went all in - Called for 70% of his stack.. He hits a set...that's it nothing else fancy happened. I didn't pre raise , he didn't raise, I went all in.
I think my mistake was going all in, then this thread would never have happened and I'd be free, free.
on the plus side...At least I've learned how to wash my cards. I've also cleaned my drivers licence using the advice shown. thanks for that. I've a full clean licence now.

I have a photo of me biting me fingernails if you want it with Tony Cas'carino (smelly feet, pink t-shirt) in the background...

How big was your stack and how big were the blinds?

RianANPoker

brianmc wrote:

How big was your stack and how big were the blinds?

Ok t lads you asked for more details. Well here they are then.
My stack was 7 inches of blue chips, 4 inch of yellow and 2 inched of green.

Villian had 9 inches (big boy) of blue chips, 5 1/2 inch of yellow and 5 inces of green.

Blinds were 1 1/2 inch of blue or 3 Inches of Yellow or 10 inches of green plus 1 1/4 inch white chip.

I went all in with assorted colours amounting to a mini tower of 13 inches. (qutie sizable I thought) He called with rainbow coloured tower of 14 3/4 inch chips. My coloured tower was hijacked and he was left with twin towers of assorted coloured chips. I've left the Jurys turning the air blue as I hopped in my drivers seat in a black mood .breaking a red light and off to browns barn to drown my sorrows.

brianmc

RianANPoker wrote:

Ok t lads you asked for more details. Well here they are then.
My stack was 7 inches of blue chips, 4 inch of yellow and 2 inched of green.

Villian had 9 inches (big boy) of blue chips, 5 1/2 inch of yellow and 5 inces of green.

Blinds were 1 1/2 inch of blue or 3 Inches of Yellow or 10 inches of green plus 1 1/4 inch white chip.

I went all in with assorted colours amounting to a mini tower of 13 inches. (qutie sizable I thought) He called with rainbow coloured tower of 14 3/4 inch chips. My coloured tower was hijacked and he was left with twin towers of assorted coloured chips. I've left the Jurys turning the air blue as I hopped in my drivers seat in a black mood .breaking a red light and off to browns barn to drown my sorrows.

May I direct you to the bad beat/moan/lol sticky thread at the top of the forum?

If you don't want opinions, don't pretend you do and moan when you get opinions.

ecksor

musician wrote:

If it's as described - in bubble territory and I have a big stack then yes I'll probably throw it away. If it's 70% of my stack then he is not so short stacked that he needs to push with any 2 cards so I'll err on the side of caution.

I'm taking on more of these gambles than I used to in MTTs, especially if I'm getting 2 to 1 as HJ describes with a pair (or probably most holdings if I'm getting something close to 3 to 1) and I'm getting the early chip lead in MTTs far more often and going deeper into the money far more often than I used to. Coincidence? Maybe.

mewso

ecksor wrote:

I'm taking on more of these gambles than I used to in MTTs, especially if I'm getting 2 to 1 as HJ describes with a pair (or probably most holdings if I'm getting something close to 3 to 1) and I'm getting the early chip lead in MTTs far more often and going deeper into the money far more often than I used to. Coincidence? Maybe.

And then with your stack nicely built up, possibly leading, towards the bubble do you take on stacks of a similar size to you with small pairs?

RianANPoker

brianmc wrote:

May I direct you to the bad beat/moan/lol sticky thread at the top of the forum?

If you don't want opinions, don't pretend you do and moan when you get opinions.

I ain't moaning dude, that was an attempt at humour. Anyways I'll go away ffs ,, thought I was speaking plain English...this is rediculous. LAST POST HERE I PPROMISE. Unreal.

Musicain, plan ban me, I don't want to be tempted to post agian .

Good luck! (My god..the revenge of the ners or what)

ecksor

musician wrote:

And then with your stack nicely built up, possibly leading, towards the bubble do you take on stacks of a similar size to you with small pairs?

Depends on the player, the situation, the odds. I'm not going to leave a load of money out there getting two to one when it might give me an even bigger lead. If I bubble I bubble. If I have 66, it's folded to me in the CO and I have 66, am I supposed to fold because a big stack is in the blinds? Am I supposed to limp? If someone plays back at me then it's a hand range / pot odds problem.

Lafortezza

RianANPoker wrote:

I ain't moaning dude, that was an attempt at humour. Anyways I'll go away ffs ,, thought I was speaking plain English...this is rediculous. LAST POST HERE I PPROMISE. Unreal.

Musicain, plan ban me, I don't want to be tempted to post agian .

Good luck! (My god..the revenge of the ners or what)

If you'd like opinions on how to play a particular hand, like AKo preflop, then you'll get the best advice/opinions will be given if you can provide the most amount of information possible. What type of tournament it was, what the stacks were, what were the seating positions were of players involved, any reads on Villains, etc etc.
We all like giving opinions and we all like reading opinions from better players. It brings us $$$.

I you really want to be banned from the poker forum feel free to private message either Musician or myself.

RianANPoker

IM sent- good luck

mewso

ecksor wrote:

Depends on the player, the situation, the odds. I'm not going to leave a load of money out there getting two to one when it might give me an even bigger lead. If I bubble I bubble. If I have 66, it's folded to me in the CO and I have 66, am I supposed to fold because a big stack is in the blinds? Am I supposed to limp? If someone plays back at me then it's a hand range / pot odds problem.

Don't get hung up on 2:1. I'm not talking about a 2:1 situation. I'm talking about getting jiggy with (calling) a stack that is 70% your stack and I am absolutely not talking about what to do with 66 when there has been no action.

Hitman Actual

LOL, this thread turned out strange. How about posting something in the charter about how to post hands for advice (similar to 2+2), and linking to this thread for how NOT to do it.

Iago

A call here with 66 isn't all that bad.

If there are say 30 players left with 27 getting paid and there have been a couple of folds before someone goes all in for 5-10 BBs and you're looking at 55-66-77 with a similar number of BBs left then why not call?

You might manage to just sneak into the money if you fold, but you might not. If you call and win you give yourself a real chance to play some poker and maybe go deeper in the tournament. With the majority of prize money going to 1st, 2nd & 3rd you want to be competing for those prizes, not limping into 27th.

Normally at this stage in MTTs (when I get that far ) I'm raising/pushing with a lot of hands from MP on if it's folded around to me, players tighten up around bubble time and if you're willing to be aggressive and put your tournament on the line you'll pick up a lot of chips.

A push here could be anything from 22 up, AKs-A9s, KQs-KTs, AKo-AJo or even QJs. I think my 66-77 is probably ahead here often enough to make the call worthwhile, sure I'd rather be raising than calling, but hey I'd rather be winning every tournament I enter, but things don't work out that way.

If I call and lose I probably still have enough chips (30%) to either sneak into the money or steal a set of blinds. If I fold, I need to be making moves anyway, except when I do I could be holding AJ against a pp or AK. If I call and win, I can play some poker and go for 1st place.

ecksor

musician wrote:

Don't get hung up on 2:1. I'm not talking about a 2:1 situation. I'm talking about getting jiggy with (calling) a stack that is 70% your stack and I am absolutely not talking about what to do with 66 when there has been no action.

I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about then. If I'm a chip leader and a guy with 70% of my stack open pushes towards the bubble then he's probably a maniac unless the structure is particularly fast. If he's clearly a maniac then my 66 may well be the best hand and I have an opportunity to pick up a lot of chips before someone else takes them from him. If the structure is very fast then I may be inclined to gamble in that spot too. I don't think there's a clear cut answer to the problem you've stated.

mewso

It's just a matter of opinion Eksor. You just disagreed with me stating I would fold but seemed to think I was talking about a 2:1 situation which I wasn't. I was trying to clarify what I was talking about but the upshot is that I wouldn't have a problem with a call or a fold here. In general as Iago has said agression pays off in the latter stages and I like to do the same but I'm always wary of someone pushing a big stack in for no apparent reason.

ecksor

It's just a matter of opinion Eksor. You just disagreed with me stating I would fold but seemed to think I was talking about a 2:1 situation which I wasn't.

Um, this is getting confused ...

Firstly, I didn't disagree with you when I made my first post. I just made a simple observation about what I have been doing lately when I'm getting 2 to 1 (remember, we haven't been given any information to tell us what odds the person holding 66 had when the call was made). My tournament play, although improving rapidly, still leaves an awful lot to be desired and I experiment a lot in an ad hoc manner so it would be difficult to draw conclusions from my play even if I was making them over a large enough sample size. Hence my last comment about coincidence in my post.

Secondly, I don't know how to directly comment on your scenario since it seems to be missing information along the lines of what I suggested in my last post.

Lastly, I don't think it is a matter of opinion. When cold-calling the raise then either you're better than even money against an opponent's range or you're not. That obviously depends upon the player.

mewso

ecksor wrote:

Firstly, I didn't disagree with you when I made my first post.

Fair enough my mistake.

ecksor wrote:

Secondly, I don't know how to directly comment on your scenario since it seems to be missing information along the lines of what I suggested in my last post.

All along I have been commenting based on the OP's original post and some other minor clarifications he made. i.e. his push was 70% the callers stack, he was not so low that he was giving the caller 2:1 etc.

ecksor wrote:

Lastly, I don't think it is a matter of opinion. When cold-calling the raise then either you're better than even money against an opponent's range or you're not. That obviously depends upon the player.

I do think it is a matter of opinion. Many people would argue that if you are getting slightly better than even money you should call and while I would agree with this in a cash game I have always disagreed with this idea in tournaments. Very marginal edges imo are weakened by threats of elimination, stack sizes, payout, standard of opponents etc. etc. This is very general and I would agree that considering the OP was far too vague to have a proper discussion on the matter that it has gotten confused and possibly pointless which is partly my fault.

RoundTower

RianANPoker, what is your other account?

cardshark202

RianANPoker wrote:

Ok t lads you asked for more details. Well here they are then.
My stack was 7 inches of blue chips, 4 inch of yellow and 2 inched of green.

Villian had 9 inches (big boy) of blue chips, 5 1/2 inch of yellow and 5 inces of green.

Blinds were 1 1/2 inch of blue or 3 Inches of Yellow or 10 inches of green plus 1 1/4 inch white chip.

I went all in with assorted colours amounting to a mini tower of 13 inches. (qutie sizable I thought) He called with rainbow coloured tower of 14 3/4 inch chips. My coloured tower was hijacked and he was left with twin towers of assorted coloured chips. I've left the Jurys turning the air blue as I hopped in my drivers seat in a black mood .breaking a red light and off to browns barn to drown my sorrows.

Great post. Seriously. I think imperial measurements should be used in poker.

RianANPoker

RoundTower wrote:

RianANPoker, what is your other account?

It's Chietestirrer Number 2.

My game is up now huh!

Ok One more piece of advice and I'll keep this to the point.

Me and my older brother play snap quite a bit. Now the thing is I'm much quicker at this game and he is much stronger. So one day after playing 10 orbits of the deck. He made an extra special attempt to beat my rapid snapping with a preemptive strike on the deck, it was a complete fluke that they paired. Now this meant that I had lost my unbeaten record. My question to you card gurus is how do you pre-empt a pre-emptive strike in snap? Ironically the pair he snapped was 6 6. (that number is haunting me) . If you want to know who I am (ROundy Tower) check out my hand it's usually bandaged from being 1st to the cards (99% of the time) and having my brothers hand slam into the back of mine.

My apologies if this post is vague and also if due to the flukey nature of his preemptive strike this should go into your bad beats folder.

Poker is for wussi (plural?) snap is the mans game.

Now I'm sure this will get me banned now for upsetting the equilibrium of the board flys.