Getting an edge, is this "fair"?

ditpoker · 31-05-2006 1:15am #1

I have a habit of slouching in my seat when playing cards, and the other day the player to my right was not great at poretcting his cards when looking at them. These two actions combined allowed for me, on occasion, to see what his hand was. This happened once and i ignored it and sat forward, mucking my trash hand as i would have done even if i hadnt seen his cards... a round of the button later and i've gone back to slouching when he raises with KT, and i hold KJ. Usually i'm happy to muck KJ to a big raise but on this occasion i know i'm ahead. Technically i've got an edge, which is what we are always searching for in poker, like a tell etc etc, should i take advantage of it? is it ethical?

On this occasion i said before making my decision that I've seen his hand and am happy for it to be a bum deal. Is it the correct ruling to allow a bum deal here?

At this point i say to the player to protect his hand better and he thanks me for not using this to my advantage....

much later in the game and it happens AGAIN.. this time he has riased with an Ax , i'm 99% certain that his A isn;t accompanied by another A, so when i look down at 99 i figure i have a chance to knock this chap out. Given that i had previously suggested that he protect his hand better in future should i now punish him? In the end i said i'd seen his hand again and we redelt the cards and this was fine with me as it was a 10 sng. but if this was, say at the IPT 3k game, this is an edge i want and i doubt i'd be as forgiving as there is greater money at stake - does this make me a bad person!?

5starpool · 31-05-2006 1:16am

Give them a warning once like you did. Then it is up to them. Having said this though I would say to them several times to pretect their cards.

Lafortezza · 31-05-2006 1:18am

Tell him once, after that it's tough.

ocallagh · 31-05-2006 1:39am

It is not fair on the other players at the table if only you benefit.. you should always mention it to the dealer and he/she should be punished by a time penalty or a disqualification if it continues.

Doc Farrell · 31-05-2006 1:43am

warn them once out loud then do whatever the hell u want.

I like to sit back, I'll warn the people at my sides, in advance, but after that they're on their own.

well done by the way, more than i woulda done, quite likely.

ditpoker · 31-05-2006 1:44am

ocallagh wrote:

It is not fair on the other players at the table if only you benefit.. you should always mention it to the dealer and he/she should be punished by a time penalty or a disqualification if it continues.

i figure this is probably the best course of action.

ditpoker · 31-05-2006 1:47am

Doc Farrell wrote:

warn them once out loud then do whatever the hell u want.

I like to sit back, I'll warn the people at my sides, in advance, but after that they're on their own.

well done by the way, more than i woulda done, quite likely.

i figure in such a cheap game its not all that important but think i'd use it to my advantage in a substantially bigger game even though its not the moral thing to do. i'd like to think i'd be decent enough to mention it repeatedly but i think at crunch time i'd let the greed take over!

Sinfonia · 31-05-2006 8:18am

my general principle has always been that if i see a card while the dealer deals it to a player, it is not the player's fault, and i will immediately declare that i saw it.
however, if the player doesn't protect his own cards, and i see, then it is the player's own fault.

i often feel guilty, especially if i play with the person a fair bit and/or know htem to be good people, so then i usually tell them once, but thats it

Poker & Pints · 31-05-2006 8:35am

Seeing an opponents cards AFTER they are all dealt is not cause for a redeal....This is from multiple casinos/cardrooms that I have played in. Suppose, hypothetically, that you have QQ and you see that the guy has JJ. He raises(naturally)....Are you going to muck your hand because you saw his hand. NO! Are you going to ask(or want) a redeal whether you saw them or not? NO!

The point was made earlier and it technically should be valid from the first hand. PROTECT YOUR HAND AT ALL TIMES! Protection from the dealer mucking it accidently, from mucked cards flying into your cards(thus making your cards dead) or from cards being flashed.

You were more than generous with the first warning.

After thinking about it, Could the ruling be made that the player showed his hand and therefore it is automatically dead and his cards must be either mucked or turned up for all to see? That would be my ruling...Not much difference(at the core) from a player flashing his cards intentionally to his buddy)or player next to him. Thoughts poker organizers???

El Stuntman · 31-05-2006 9:29am

ditpoker wrote:

I have a habit of slouching in my seat when playing cards, and the other day the player to my right was not great at poretcting his cards when looking at them. These two actions combined allowed for me, on occasion, to see what his hand was. This happened once and i ignored it and sat forward, mucking my trash hand as i would have done even if i hadnt seen his cards... a round of the button later and i've gone back to slouching when he raises with KT, and i hold KJ. Usually i'm happy to muck KJ to a big raise but on this occasion i know i'm ahead. Technically i've got an edge, which is what we are always searching for in poker, like a tell etc etc, should i take advantage of it? is it ethical?

On this occasion i said before making my decision that I've seen his hand and am happy for it to be a bum deal. Is it the correct ruling to allow a bum deal here?

At this point i say to the player to protect his hand better and he thanks me for not using this to my advantage....

much later in the game and it happens AGAIN.. this time he has riased with an Ax , i'm 99% certain that his A isn;t accompanied by another A, so when i look down at 99 i figure i have a chance to knock this chap out. Given that i had previously suggested that he protect his hand better in future should i now punish him? In the end i said i'd seen his hand again and we redelt the cards and this was fine with me as it was a 10 sng. but if this was, say at the IPT 3k game, this is an edge i want and i doubt i'd be as forgiving as there is greater money at stake - does this make me a bad person!?

well done, I take back everything I have ever said about students :rolleyes:

of course you play poker, so there is still greater than 90% chance you are still a bad person - you're just not a pr!ck!!