Injection Rooms? Good/bad?

tbh

sry - "Injection rooms" could a mod change for me? tks

This is one of those topics that makes me feel a bit like a nodding dog. I don't really have a firm opinion on it either way, and tend to agree with whoever is making the best argument at the time, so I thought I'd throw it out and see what people think.

What do you think of the concept of providing a safe, clean environment for drug users to use when taking heroin? Several European countries provide these facilities, with, it seems, a fair amount of success. I'm not really looking to start the whole "Drugs are bad/good/too expensive" debate, and I think that this is a topic that can be discussed independantly of whether you think drugs are a plague / someone's personal choice. The fact is that people do use heroin, and the unsupervised use of heroin leads to discarded syringes, overdoses etc. If we accept that heroin abuse will never be eradicated, is it fair to then say that it is better to contain the problem than to ignore it? Safe injection rooms provide sterile injection equipment, information about drugs and health care, treatment referrals, and access to medical staff. Some offer counseling, hygienic and other services of use to itinerant and impoverished individuals. Most prohibit the sale or purchase of illegal drugs. Many programs require identification cards. Some restrict access to local residents and apply other admission criteria.

This would mean that the physicalities of heroin abuse (in particular, discarded syringes) would be less of a problem for those of us who don't use it. Of course, people still have to pay for the drug, and we all know how most of them do that, but maybe Injection rooms are a step in the right direction? Or would they help to legitimise heroin abuse?

any thoughts?

I think they should be extermination rooms personally.

But I'm sure its unconstitutional or something.

bonkey

tbh wrote:

A lot of European countries provide these facilities, with, it seems, a fair amount of success.

Do they? How many is "lots"? (genuine questions)

tbh

bonkey wrote:

Do they? How many is "lots"? (genuine questions)

fair question

according to: http://www.drugpolicy.org/reducingharm/saferinjecti/

These facilities now operate in dozens of European cities. A pilot safe injection room is currently underway in Sydney, Australia. In Canada the government is exploring the feasibility of safe injection rooms in response to a recommendation from Health Canada, the Canadian equivalent of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

There is some more at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5007962.stm

and finally http://www.internationaldrugpolicy.net/reports/BeckleyFoundation_BriefingPaper_03.pdf says that

In the 1980s and 1990s, DCRs were established in Germany,
Spain, Switzerland and the Netherlands, and in the early 2000s,
Australia and Canada. By 2003, there were approximately 60
facilities operating internationally. At the time of writing there
were plans to establish facilities in Luxembourg and Norway.
The implementation of DCRs was also being actively
considered in Austria, Denmark, France, Italy and Ireland

(I've changed "a lot" to "Several" in the OP)

astrofool

As long as drug laws are as they are, then no, as it would be condoning an illegal act, as well as the illegal act of buying the drugs, justifying drug dealers, and the entire system that ruins people's lives.

Also, if someone is lucid enough to go along to an injection room, then surely they'd be lucid enough to buy/steal a clean syringe in the first place? Those who use dirty needles aren't going to go along to these places anyway.

Couldn't the media also lay camp, and finger all the drugs users as well? We'd have "Pete Doherty" watch 24/7.

biko

I would be for it (vague opinion) as they would provide an opportuinty to monitor, and perhaps salvage, the junkies. Orange juice and nutrious food stuff supplied. If the Irish state can't beat the problem at least we may estimate it and also "turn some away from the dark side".

Sam Vimes

this reminds me of the "free boat" scam set up by the police in the simpsons.


yes, set up these rooms and when all the junkies arrive, arrest them, take their prints and convict them not only of having drugs, but of the burglaries etc they committed to pay for their drugs

tbh

biko wrote:

I would be for it (vague opinion) as they would provide an opportuinty to monitor, and perhaps salvage, the junkies. Orange juice and nutrious food stuff supplied. If the Irish state can't beat the problem at least we may estimate it and also "turn some away from the dark side".

yeah, i'm tending along those lines myself at the moment, but I also take astrofools points. On a purely selfish point, according to the sources I posted earlier, it has led to a drop in the amount of discarded syringes lying around the neighbourhoods, which is good. Laying my cards on the table, I wouldn't like one to be opened near my house, so I suppose it's unfair to expect someone else to have to put up with it. Damn gray areas!

Sand

Good idea. The government should probably fence their stolen goods as well, and remove them from the criminal enviroment altogether. Could do an education campaign on the nearby primary schools with real live junkies demonstrating their techniques to the kids - at least that way the kids wont kill themselves through ignorance, and will know which dealers offer good quality and which are dodgy or are likely to throw them out a window if they fall behind in payments.

hepcat

Sand wrote:

Good idea. The government should probably fence their stolen goods as well, and remove them from the criminal enviroment altogether. Could do an education campaign on the nearby primary schools with real live junkies demonstrating their techniques to the kids - at least that way the kids wont kill themselves through ignorance, and will know which dealers offer good quality and which are dodgy or are likely to throw them out a window if they fall behind in payments.

Yeah, God forbid we should try anything new and radical - our current "policies" work so well.

I would like the government to actually take the brave step of at least giving these ideas a trial run. If they don't work, so be it, but it is surely a good idea to try. It would seem to be a good idea to at least monitor IV drug users, and providing a plentiful supply of clean syringes and paraphernalia can only help to cut down on the spread of HIV / Hepatitis infection. This has wider benefits for society as a whole, for those who hate the idea of helping junkies. It would also bring them into closer and more regular contact with outreach programmes and drug counsellors etc, which may eventually see a reduction in the numbers of drug users. I can understand no-one wanting such a facility next door to them, but I am sure this problem could be overcome, and better have a junkie shooting up in a clean, monitored and recognisable facility rather than in a back street / pub toilet / stairwell.

Believe it or not, junkies are generally very miserable desperate souls, who do not actually want to suffer addiction and homelessness, and all the precending and attendant problems associated with drug addiction.

And I'm not a bleeding heart namby pamby tree-hugging pinko liberal.

Sand

Yeah, God forbid we should try anything new and radical - our current "policies" work so well.

Then be radical - legalise the drugs, tax them so the government earns the revenue to clean up the mess and move the sale of drugs to legal business to reduce the criminality. The above isnt being radical, its accepting the status quo. Its just helping junkies be junkies, and is doing nothing other than assisting criminals who pay for their crap by robbing people. I guess they should start buying winos their drinks as well? Wouldnt that be radical?

Believe it or not, junkies are generally very miserable desperate souls, who do not actually want to suffer addiction and homelessness, and all the precending and attendant problems associated with drug addiction.

Believe it or not, its not actually classified info that drugs are addictive and you shouldnt mess about with them. If someone reckons theyre somehow immune to addiction, or can "control" it - then fine. Off you go. Dont expect me to cry about it when they find out theyre not immune. Ive as much sympathy for junkies as I have for people who hammer nails through their dicks only to realise that it actually hurts.

Catsmokinpot

prohibition solves nothing it creates crime,

in america they had prohibition of alcohol, there was gangs and bootleggers all over the place, gangland shootings, every piece of scum that was willing to sell illegal drink was selling it.

gangs and violence is the only way to solve disputes over illegal things, making drugs illegal gives the worst elements of society the opportunity to make tonnes of cash, and also makes criminals out of alot of people who would be otherwise law abiding citizens.

besides that, what the hell are people trying to push their morality onto other people? aren't we supposed to be able to live in a free society, i pay taxes, i contribute to my community, i donate to charity, i work, why shouldnt i be able to put what i want into my body without people getting on to me.


now heroin on the otherhand is another question, i dont think legalising heroin is a good step to take, however making injection rooms available, will cut down on the many deaths of people who dont use sanitised equipment, it also will cut down on deaths from overdoses.

hepcat

Sand wrote:

Then be radical - legalise the drugs, tax them so the government earns the revenue to clean up the mess and move the sale of drugs to legal business to reduce the criminality. The above isnt being radical, its accepting the status quo. Its just helping junkies be junkies, and is doing nothing other than assisting criminals who pay for their crap by robbing people. I guess they should start buying winos their drinks as well? Wouldnt that be radical?


Believe it or not, its not actually classified info that drugs are addictive and you shouldnt mess about with them. If someone reckons theyre somehow immune to addiction, or can "control" it - then fine. Off you go. Dont expect me to cry about it when they find out theyre not immune. Ive as much sympathy for junkies as I have for people who hammer nails through their dicks only to realise that it actually hurts.

The question was about injection rooms, not about legalising drugs. Why are injection rooms not a radical move? And it is not just about helping junkies be junkies - can you not see how it may reduce spread of HIV/hepatitis, and also make junkies come into more contact with rehabiliation services?


Well, I guess your last sentence sums up your position:rolleyes: To hell with them all, eh?

Executive Steve

the funny thing is that heroin is a drug that is associated with poverty and marginalisation and a poor record of interface with society in general. it is physically addictive to the same degree as cocaine is but also carries a vast public health risk to society at large through secondary factors: hepatitis and aids.

injection rooms are a fantastic idea. i abhor heroin and heroin use, but i certainly don't wish hiv/aids or hepatitis on a population of marginalised urban poor who can then go and incubate a variety of other infectious diseases [tuberculosis being a PRIME example] and reinfect the rest of society at large.

the issue is a complete no brainer. providing a safe area and safe facilities for the injection of intravenous drugs like heroin can only be a good thing for society at large. as another poster pointed out it also puts these addicts into closer contact with non-judgmental public health officials and allows public health care workers a greater oppurtunity to monitor the health of addict populations in general.

i am not going to discuss legalisation here, it's been done to death, and it won't happen any time soon because too many people have too great a financial stake in prohibition. but surely the containment of fatal infectious disease is a noble enough cause to justify shelling out a few quid for clean syringes and a few quiet rooms for junkies to shoot up in??? or maybe you'd rather have them shooting up in the bicycle shed of your child's school?

Sand

besides that, what the hell are people trying to push their morality onto other people? aren't we supposed to be able to live in a free society, i pay taxes, i contribute to my community, i donate to charity, i work, why shouldnt i be able to put what i want into my body without people getting on to me.

now heroin on the otherhand is another question, i dont think legalising heroin is a good step to take,

Whose pushing their morality onto who now?

The question was about injection rooms, not about legalising drugs. Why are injection rooms not a radical move? And it is not just about helping junkies be junkies - can you not see how it may reduce spread of HIV/hepatitis, and also make junkies come into more contact with rehabiliation services?

Oh sorry, I thought you were looking for radical solutions not simply papering over the cracks. Yeah, I guess if youre only interested in assisting junkies engage in habitual, life destroying drug use funded by criminal activity whilst compromosing the governments legislative position at taxpayer expense then injection rooms are a great idea. But why stop there? Legalise drugs, bring the users out into the mainstream where they have full access to government regulated standards and medical treatment, and tax sales from reputable, legal suppliers to fund treatment. Cant you see how it may reduce the spread of HIV/heptatis, and also make junkies come into more contact with rehabiliation services? And .... will not involve the government co-operating in the committing of crime.

Injection rooms on their own arent a radical anything. They simply say - heroin is harmful, its impossible to erradicate, so lets just accept it and help junkies be junkies in the healthiest way possible, which is hilarious in its own right. And all the time well ignore that junkies who cant afford clean needles got their fix by robbing our taxpayers. Well also ignore that were telling people that drug use is wrong and junkies are victims of their addiction whilst facilitating that drug use and that addiction. All your doing is compromising your views, not changing them.

If we can compromise our principles enough to do injection rooms, then why not simply get over the mental block and legalise drugs? At least that way the government gets a slight health benefit and a take of the profits. Injection rooms isnt thinking outside the box, its just having a slightly larger box binding your thinking.

surely the containment of fatal infectious disease is a noble enough cause to justify shelling out a few quid for clean syringes and a few quiet rooms for junkies to shoot up in??? or maybe you'd rather have them shooting up in the bicycle shed of your child's school?

Yeah, I find it damn inconvenient when people hang themselves where children can find them. The government should continue to condemn suicide, but at the same time provide publically funded gallows in a secluded, discreet location so as to reduce the bother to the public.

Catsmokinpot

Sand wrote:

Whose pushing their morality onto who now?

man see the difference between you and me is, i don't think it would be a good idea *but* personally, i don't give a flying fúck whether or its made legal or not, im just gonna steer clear of it alltogether but i've just heard too many horror stories about it and pretty much all the "Opiates" morphine, opium, etc. i'd have the same opinion about crack and PCP, i haven't heard that many horrific stories about any other drugs.

bonkey

Came across this somewhat releveant article during the week:

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/search/detail/Heroin_loses_its_attraction.html?siteSect=881&sid=6772740&cKey=1149244409000

अधिनायक

Let's see why people who take heroin have a higher risk of dying compared to the general population:

Overdose
Heroin users have to guess the strength of each dose because the Legal Metrology Service does not test heroin purity levels in the way that it does for alcohol and tobacco. This is because heroin is illegal.

Poisoning
Due to impurities (sometimes instant other times preceded by blocked veins, amputations etc). Distributors can freely add impurities to their product because there is no official testing. This is because heroin is illegal.

Infectious diseases
(HIV/AIDS and Hepatitis leading to cirrhosis of the liver). Heroin is sold without accompanying disposable needles. This is because heroin is illegal.

Crime related violent deaths
Heroin sells for around €75/g on the black market, whereas it can be obtained for around €10 by a health authority. The high prices lead to a criminalised distribution network, associated gang killings and crime by users. The price is high because heroin is illegal.

The cure may be worse than the disease.

Article about the crazy idea of just giving heroin to heroin addicts.

Shellie13

I dont know making it more acceptable could indeed lead to more people taking etc etc...Plus whos going to want an injection room area next door to them?!

I'm all for decriminalisation of drug users though...helping them get off it, sending them to rehab etc as opposed to shoving them behind bars, where lets face it there's often an even bigger drug network anyways!