Madrid motorway system

Lennoxschips

I was just zooming in on this on Google Earth, it looks completely mad. Is there any logic to it? This is the kind of carry-on I hope we don't see happening in Ireland.

Between many of the cities in Spain they have perfecftly good dual carriageways (free) and motorways (toll), side by side. Such a waste of asphalt!

fricatus

"De Madrid al cielo..." (from Madrid to Heaven... implying that there's only one place that can outdo it!)

Believe it or not, there is some logic to it. The inner M-30 circles the inner core of the city, with the eastern section acting as sort of a main north-south expressway - in the past it acted as a bypass for through traffic. As for the western section, it's more of an urban expressway that dives into tunnels all along the Manzanares river. The M-40 rings the city further out, but comes close to the M-30 at times, mostly in the north, near La Vaguada/Madrid 2 shopping centre and the Ramon y Cajal Hospital, if I remember correctly.

The M-45 and M-50 (ring a bell?) are only partial ring roads, like Dublin's one, each one further out respectively, but only running from about the airport, down through Leganés and Móstoles and back up west to Las Rozas and Majadahonda, the poshest parts of town. I suppose they're only partial rings, because that's all that's needed that far out. The city's main expansion - and it's spectacular - is taking place mainly south of the airport (Torrejón) and around Leganés and Alcorcón.

It seems like overkill, but it's a huge city (5m in greater Madrid, 6m in total in the province) with a huge amount of traffic. The amount of land it sits on is not huge though, compared to the population. I'm sure its urban "footprint" is not much bigger than Dublin's.

A lot of the work was done as part of the bid for the 2012 Olympics, which eventually went to London. But Madrid is an amazing city, the only place I've been to whose growth seems to outpace Dublin's. Its suburban rail and metro systems are also really good, there's a high-speed line to Seville, and when I lived there, there were plans to connect Barcelona and Bilbao by high-speed rail. With the pace of planning, approval and construction there, who knows, they might be ready by now! The airport is being expanded at a huge rate too... do a search on www.airliners.net for "Barajas" and you should see photos of the complex.

Incidentally, the "M" designation on the roads refers to the province (Comunidad Autónoma) of Madrid.

NRA's murphaph

I know Madrid's planning is not exactly a template for us to follow but I know they built these motorways for far less than to build the equivalent here.

spacetweek

fricatus wrote:

The city's main expansion - and it's spectacular - is taking place mainly south of the airport (Torrejón) and around Leganés and Alcorcón.

I found these areas and zoomed in - amazing! Makes our SDZs look like vegetable plots in comparison. I've been to Barcelona and it too is booming. I think all of Spain is like that at the moment. Barce is f*****g amazing btw. Bring on the tapas!

Another place I've seen on Gmaps that's growing about as fast is Shenzhen at the Hong Kong border, look here. They're filling in large areas of the bay!

However by building their motorway system in a piecemeal way like that, they've made a dog's dinner of the Madrid area road network. Imagine how confusing it would be trying to get from one part of the city to another without a map. So many different ways of going. The road network in many areas of Spain is like that, roads of similar quality duplicating each other, example, example, example.

fricatus

NRA's murphaph wrote:

I know Madrid's planning is not exactly a template for us to follow

Why not? I'm no transport or housing expert but I know Madrid very well, and it seems to do a very good job of accommodating so many people and moving them around such a small space.

NRA's murphaph wrote:

but I know they built these motorways for far less than to build the equivalent here.

In my ignorance, I can only think of wages as being the reason, but presumably there are other factors. What are they?

spacetweek wrote:

However by building their motorway system in a piecemeal way like that, they've made a dog's dinner of the Madrid area road network. Imagine how confusing it would be trying to get from one part of the city to another without a map. So many different ways of going.

I disagree. Firstly, the city is very well signposted, both in the centre and in the suburbs. Secondly, having multiple routes is a good thing I would have thought. Electronic systems (VMSs and sat nav systems) can advise alternative routes in times of congestion, incidents or road closures.

Jamax

Quote:
Originally Posted by spacetweek
However by building their motorway system in a piecemeal way like that, they've made a dog's dinner of the Madrid area road network. Imagine how confusing it would be trying to get from one part of the city to another without a map. So many different ways of going.


I disagree. Firstly, the city is very well signposted, both in the centre and in the suburbs. Secondly, having multiple routes is a good thing I would have thought. Electronic systems (VMSs and sat nav systems) can advise alternative routes in times of congestion, incidents or road closures.

I think the standards of the roads in Ireland and around Dublin is not even close to the Spanish roads 15 years ago. To have many ways to go to a place is a basic thing to let the traffic flow to avoid congestion.
This is one of the main problems here in Dublin. All the cars have to go through the same routes, there is no possible shortcut. There are no roads wide enough to cope the traffic and instead letting the traffic flow with intermediate ways through other secondary streets, these are blocked by city council/ neighbourghs, forcing all the traffic to the supposely main road which is the same width as many secondary streets.

And in these commuter ring roads in Madrid m-30, m-40, m-50 there are no insane tolls like here to stop the cars moving and make congestion. And most of the interchanges are free flow in every way, with the roads having minimum 3 lanes.

I guess is a different mentality on how big projects are built here. In Spain, and main Europe, when you build some big infraestructure you build as big as reasonible to cope future years of growing, not for the needs of yesterday.

If in many places there are several parallel roads is because it is a busy route and more roads are needed, some of them may be tolled. In many main routes where a toll motorway was first built, maintaining the old national road, these nationals are being upgraded to motorway standard but remain free of toll, as motorways are much safer and can cope more traffic.

spacetweek

Jamax wrote:

I guess is a different mentality on how big projects are built here. In Spain, and main Europe, when you build some big infraestructure you build as big as reasonible to cope future years of growing, not for the needs of yesterday.

If in many places there are several parallel roads is because it is a busy route and more roads are needed, some of them may be tolled. In many main routes where a toll motorway was first built, maintaining the old national road, these nationals are being upgraded to motorway standard but remain free of toll, as motorways are much safer and can cope more traffic.

OK this all sounds great but what about the current thinking that building more roads just generates more traffic? By building masses of roads everywhere are they not just encouraging Madridians to drive everywhere? I'm not sure how to reconcile the two.

Jamax

The first time I heard that 'building more roads will increase the traffic' was here in Ireland. It´s like the thinking of using tolls to reduce traffic and prevent more cars to enter in a motorway or in a comuter road.
It must be I´m not Irish but this way of thinking makes absolutely no sense to me. It´s like thinking upside down.

In Madrid, not only new roads are built, but the public transport system is constantly expanded, and it is many decades ahead of what Dublin has. But despite of the good transport system, this can´t reach absolutely everywhere. So as the population grows the roads have to grow properly and in advance to the needs ideally. It´s not only private persons using the roads, it´s about transport of goods and parcels as well. Having a effective and quick way of transporting things is a basic pillar for the growth of the economy and it is good for everybody. That is one of the things Ireland is starting to fail and that is affecting many companies settling here or expanding. It also has an effect on the prices of everything in Ireland as it takes more time and money to receive any parcel (either you or your nearest supermarket or convenience store).

Lennoxschips

The more roads = more traffic thing is not an Irish idea.

http://www.cts.ucl.ac.uk/tsu/tpab9828.htm

It even turns out that less roads = less traffic.

Motorways are meant for intercity high-speed transport, not really for local traffic and commuting. I always think that commuting motorways are like TGV services between neighbourhoods, when what you want are more light rail services.

I fear that Dublin's M50 expansion will cause more problems than it will solve.

Hotblack Desiato

fricatus wrote:

In my ignorance, I can only think of wages as being the reason, but presumably there are other factors. What are they?

Land prices a.k.a. IFA greed.