Why do our law courts use the bible ?

Pocari Sweat

Why in an increasingly multicultural society, do the courts of law still bring out the bible at the start of a trial, regardless of whether the witnesses are of different religions, or agnostic or atheist ?

I was brought into a local court as a witness recently to discuss a civil dispute between two companies, and I mentioned in advance I was not religious but got a bible stuck in my hand and told to swear on it etc.

Not wanting to tell them to feck off, I went along with the ritual knowing it was an insult to my position and essentially pointless as god and gods and the afterlife etc, are all complete nonesense when it comes to the way in which sensible and logical decisions are evaluated in a court of law, when a person's liberty in this life is at stake, regardless of imagined liberties in the afterlife.

What do you think. Is the law an ass, like god's laws.

utopian

Pocari Sweat wrote:

Why in an increasingly multicultural society, do the courts of law still bring out the bible at the start of a trial, regardless of whether the witnesses are of different religions, or agnostic or atheist ?

Oasis says:

If you wish to make the affirmation (suitable for those who are not Christians), then you must tell the registrar. The words of the affirmation are "I, do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence that I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

But please don't let the facts get in the way of your rant. Congratulations on standing up for your beliefs BTW.

Dirk Gently

Like utopian said you can make an affirmation.

Personally if I was going to lie through my teeth I would take the bible option as lies would be consistent with that book and if I was caught out I would just point to the inconsistencies in the book I swore on as an excuse for my own inconsistencies. I could hardly swear on the bible and then not bend the truth a bit. How could I justify making a logical fact based statement after swearing on a book which is illogical and not based on fact. Probably wouldn't work but I would feel fairly vindicated later on sitting in my prison cell.

If however I was going to tell the truth I would make an affirmation which basically is me telling the Judge that its cool to trust me as I'm a decent bloke and promise not to lie.

The_Minister

How is the Bible not based on fact, Clownbag? There are records documenting the existance of Jesus, and most of the Bible is historical events (with a little added spice;) ). Most of the oddities in the bible (other than the outright magical) are turns of phrase that we don't understand. In Irish we say that to be on the pig's back = to be delighted. It seems to be the same with the bible. We don't know exactly what they meant. For instance Jesus bringing a man back from the dead may mean that he was on the brink of death and that Jesus was a good healer. When these things are taken into account the bible holds much truth.



PS Thanks for support on forum.

Dirk Gently

Firespinner wrote:

How is the Bible not based on fact, Clownbag? There are records documenting the existance of Jesus, and most of the Bible is historical events (with a little added spice;) ). Most of the oddities in the bible (other than the outright magical) are turns of phrase that we don't understand. In Irish we say that to be on the pig's back = to be delighted. It seems to be the same with the bible. We don't know exactly what they meant. For instance Jesus bringing a man back from the dead may mean that he was on the brink of death and that Jesus was a good healer. When these things are taken into account the bible holds much truth.



PS Thanks for support on forum.

Exactly my point firespinner,
If I wanted to spin a yarn with a bit of spice thrown in and a load of comments which can be interpreted either way I would use the Bible to get myself out of a tight spot. Somehow I doubt this would be in the spirit of the law though. However I would be torn apart by a lawyer and not afforded the same protection from literal interpretation. Either way whether you choose the Bible or an affirmation you are going to be asked to back up your story and put under pressure. Just think to have to swear on a very ambiguous document while giving an unambiguous account is a little silly. The bible is open to interpretation, my statement in court is not. ( I always associated the pigs back with having money or spare cash rather than happiness, but I suppose the two go hand in hand a lot of the time)

*p.s. if the powers that be don't give you your dream forum just get people to keep posting threads in a particular forum until the resident mod gets his head wrecked sufficiently to award you a sticky in the forum to prevent his sphere of influence been hijacked by the dreamers.


*Clown bag would like to distance himself from subversive actions against the boards ruling classes.

The_Minister

Thanks for the advice;)


I think you swear on the bible because of what it represents for many people - God. It stands for something all-powerful, immutable and omnipotent. If you believed would you cross that oath lightly?

Dirk Gently

Yeah but I don't believe so I can disregard the oath and lie through my teeth under the pretence of appearing like I wouldn't dare lie for fear of pissing off God. It had its uses in the past when we were all God fearing Catholics but is very limited now in its effectiveness to scare people into telling the truth.

The_Minister

Even fearless Catholics still believe in God......

Pocari Sweat

I should mention as an extension of my original post, that it actually turned out that the witness for the prosecution swore on the bible and overdid it with his wee tales in court often backing up the testimony that he was a regular church attendee and figure in the community.

I don't think the court wanted to hear this, it was only a small case about none payment of wages, but the lies he told in court, were truly unbelievable, this being a chap who actually does go to church every sunday and swore on the bible, and is a lying ass.

Anyway the judge caught him out. He previously used excuses to other people about his wife having a hysterectomy in the previous year, but used an excuse to postpone a recent court case because his wife was off sick after having a miscarraige.

So the defendents, went down to where his wife was working and found out she was as fit as a fiddle. Judge found out, knew hw was a religious type liar and made him pay costs when he could have won the case hands down on straight forward details.

Not an exception by any standard. I know dozens of regular church attendees that lie through their feckin teeth on a daily basis. They take lying to a new level and are masters of mendacity.

Munya

What do you propose us multi-cultured people swear on? Money? It appears to be the thing we, the people of 21st century Ireland, love so dearly.

DublinWriter

Munya wrote:

What do you propose us multi-cultured people swear on? Money? It appears to be the thing we, the people of 21st century Ireland, love so dearly.

How about the latest issue of 'Loaded'?

Zillah

Munya wrote:

What do you propose us multi-cultured people swear on? Money? It appears to be the thing we, the people of 21st century Ireland, love so dearly.

Why the hell do you have to make an oath anyway? I don't have to make an oath to not murder people, I don't have to make an oath to not steal money, why should I have to make an oath not to lie to a court?

Surely the threat of the law and punishment is enough?

Scofflaw

Munya wrote:

What do you propose us multi-cultured people swear on? Money? It appears to be the thing we, the people of 21st century Ireland, love so dearly.

Nah. Lawyers love it even more than we do, so they're hardly going to put it out where we'd just nick it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Zillah wrote:

Why the hell do you have to make an oath anyway? I don't have to make an oath to not murder people, I don't have to make an oath to not steal money, why should I have to make an oath not to lie to a court?

Surely the threat of the law and punishment is enough?

The threat of punishment is there because you have taken an oath, although to some extent it's a very very old relic. In a lot of early legal systems, giving your oath meant staking your honour, so being foresworn was a big deal, with or without legal penalties. In addition, your word was as good as you were, which meant that your evidence could be "oversworn" by someone of higher rank.

Giving your word is still regarded as quite serious - consider that it's what you do during a marriage ceremony. For some people it is still the oath that is important, rather than the threat of legal penalties. The form is to some extent irrelevant - just another Church capture of an older custom (and in many ways in direct contradiction of scripture).

cordially,
Scofflaw

Pocari Sweat

So, in court when getting judgement after previously swearing on the bible, if the judge gets a bit ropey with yer verdict, just quote; "judge not, lest ye be judged, judge", say a prayer and tell the jury "may god have pity on yer souls" as you are sent down for a two year stretch for various counts of blaspheming and contempt of court.

ixoy

I was a juror back for a while in the Four Courts and we were told straight out that you didn't have to swear on the Bible.

Pocari Sweat

I was shoved a bible in me hand in court, I even said before hand I don't like it, but they didn't seem interested.

What is the point of it if they can't actually rate the religiousness of a certain witness. It could be an atheist pretending to be religious, or someone who can't be arsed, or someone who is scared of ruffling feathers.

Don't they know that its the best liars in court cases that do the best, and no bible is going to make any difference.

Just makes a mockery of the bible.

Zombrex

Zillah wrote:

Why the hell do you have to make an oath anyway? I don't have to make an oath to not murder people, I don't have to make an oath to not steal money, why should I have to make an oath not to lie to a court?

Surely the threat of the law and punishment is enough?

Because lying isn't a crime. You have to promise (enter a contract) that you won't lie, and then you can be punished for breaking that contract (which is a crime)