Interesting Irish Open Hand

MrPillowTalk

Ok sorry for posting this one so long after the fact but I was disscussing the hand with a tourney player freind of mine who thinks I made a sham of it, Im inclined to think I was right (but I would do wouldnt I).

First hand of the main event

Im on button with 22

2 mid position limpers
cutoff limps
I limp
sb completes
bb checks

6 players see the flop

Flop 2c 10x 7c

checked to cutoff who bets 300
I raise to 900
sb folds bb folds
1st mid pos limper goes all in (yes thats all in for nearly 10k)
folded to cutoff who thinks for a couple of mins and calls.

Now its up to me I have bottom set and if I win the pot I am a massive early chip leader however I feel I have to be against a set here majority of the time so I fold.

My mate reckons I should have just decided to call the flop bet 300 and seen a turn before deciding my line, he also says that after the cutoff dwells he is calling for his stack everytime as he reckons all in guy cant possibly have us beat and BECAUSE of the dwell up he thinks we are ahead of the cutoff as well.

Thoughts?

As it turned out I folded the best hand as the all in guy had Ac10c and the caller had KK with a club, a club hit and the all in guy took it down so I would have lost anyway but that doesnt really matter.

ditpoker

(when considering my comments bear in mind that a 3000+ buy in event is the stuff of myth and legend for me...)

i think you did the right thing here. with two players all in at such an early stage of the tournement i'd want a stronger lock on the hand to call, after all you've only invested 900 and can get away relatively unscathed. even if you have middle set or there is a rainbow board you're stronger. There is alot that beats you and even if you call with 2 players in the hand you have to assume that between them they have a large number of combined outs, i.e. you maybe favourite (40% favourite out of the three of you) but equally big chance of you losing (the other 60%). Apologies if that makes little sense. I think the risk is too great here and you can pick a better spot later on even though as you say the reward is 30,000 chips! for me its a reluctant fold.

NickyOD

I think if you read over the info in your post you'll see why its improbable for either palyer to have a set. The all in bet will almost never be a set and amost always top pair with a flush draw. Since the second player had to think about calling the only hand he can have that beats you is 77 and even then its unlikely he would think its a dificult decision. Nothing wrong with your flop raise BTW. WTF the cutoff was doing limping into that pot is a better question.

ocallagh

NickyOD wrote:

Since the second player had to think about calling the only hand he can have that beats you is 77 and even then its unlikely he would think its a dificult decision.

Eoin re-raised to 900, so the second player knows he has a strong hand.. He will more than likely dwell up with 77 or TT loooking to extract a call. Unless he was an awful player, I would ignore how the second player acts prior to calling..

Secondly, it's a very tough call for KK, and a lot of people would lay down KK in this spot (See Doms report on the fitz end of month game). So at the very worst he has KK/AA. That means a set is very likely. If I knew the caller was a loose player I'd consider a call with 22... otherwise I fold this one.

NickyOD

ocallagh wrote:

Eoin re-raised to 900, so the second player knows he has a strong hand.. He will more than likely dwell up with 77 or TT loooking to extract a call. Unless he was an awful player, I would ignore how the second player acts prior to calling..

Secondly, it's a very tough call for KK, and a lot of people would lay down KK in this spot (See Doms report on the fitz end of month game). So at the very worst he has KK/AA. That means a set is very likely. If I knew the caller was a loose player I'd consider a call with 22... otherwise I fold this one.

Yeah, also I think the fact that its been limped around preflop makes the call even more difficult. You certainly wouldn't expect anyone to be in the hand with an overpair to this board.

RoundTower

I think it's very close. I think it's a good fold but I may underestimate just how much tourney players tend to overplay one pair. I really don't like your mate's line.

fuzzbox

I would call and be happy about it.

CoD

...the CO limps with KK after 2 callers...
horrible.


As played I'd have to fold. First hand, only lost a tenth of the stack. Plenty for time to win it back and play poker.

cardshark202

ditpoker wrote:

(when considering my comments bear in mind that a 3000+ buy in event is the stuff of myth and legend for me...)

i think you did the right thing here. with two players all in at such an early stage of the tournement i'd want a stronger lock on the hand to call, after all you've only invested 900 and can get away relatively unscathed. even if you have middle set or there is a rainbow board you're stronger. There is alot that beats you and even if you call with 2 players in the hand you have to assume that between them they have a large number of combined outs, i.e. you maybe favourite (40% favourite out of the three of you) but equally big chance of you losing (the other 60%). Apologies if that makes little sense. I think the risk is too great here and you can pick a better spot later on even though as you say the reward is 30,000 chips! for me its a reluctant fold.

No way. i'm rushing to get my chips in here. You have two players trying to pay off your set. You're not going to get a better opportunity than this. What would you wait for?

cardshark202

And why are people scared to get their chips in just because its the first hand? You shouldn't play if you're that scared.

ianmc38

I have no problem calling here. I don't think we're against a bigger set.

Bandana boy

your in the irish open and first hand you have 2 all ins to your set I am sorry this is wet dream stuff
Betting suggests this is not ttt or 777
you should call instantly

Daithio

I think it's very close between a call and a fold. The majority of players in a big tournament will not get all their chips in on the first hand without a set or a big overpair, and it's tough to put them on the overpairs with all the limping. Perhaps you could take something from the dwell up of the second guy, and also from the fact that the all in bet from the first guy is unlikely to have a set, but there are alot of ifs and buts there and one of them having a set is still quite probable IMO. I think a call or a fold here is fine, it would depend for me on what I felt in the situation or what extra information I could pick up off the players.

mewso

I would have played it exactly the same way as Eoin. Early in a tournament I want to get to know my opponents. Here you know nothing about them. Like Dave says maybe based on the players actions you could figure you were ahead most of the time but I would happily fold bottom set here.

5starpool

musician wrote:

I would have played it exactly the same way as Eoin. Early in a tournament I want to get to know my opponents. Here you know nothing about them. Like Dave says maybe based on the players actions you could figure you were ahead most of the time but I would happily fold bottom set here.

ditto

jbravado

I cant understand how bottom set with two people willing to put their tournament lives on the line is an "instant" call.....

loosecannon

i'm very suprised that some people here are advocating a call here, i know that you might suspect that some of these players are very poor but you have to presume that they're decent enough (it is a €3,000 event).

Personally i'm always thinking that i'm behind at least one set here, which leaves us drawing mighty mighty thin...not the sort of place i want to get all my chips in especially in the first hand of a slow stuctured MTT.

similiar hand happened to me recently online, 400 player MTT, last 30 or so, all 3 of us in the top 5 in chip stacks

i have 44 to the standard raise on a 410A board, initial raiser bets out, i'm over the top all in, both call and i'm behind 1010 and AA

finallly starting to learn that sets can and should be laid down in certain situations...

wp in the original hand pillowtalk

loosecannon

i would also like to see if you had done the initial post without the results of the hand (the other guys having Ac10c and KK) how many people would still be advocating a call?????

ianmc38

loosecannon wrote:

i would also like to see if you had done the initial post without the results of the hand (the other guys having Ac10c and KK) how many people would still be advocating a call?????

I actually didnt even see the results. The overraise doesnt look like a set. To me it looks like a draw. As for the guy with KK. What a horrible way to play it.

Hectorjelly

Folding sets in the first place is pretty dodgy, folding them whern there are multiple draws on the board is well dodgy. There are times in poker where assuming your opponent doesnt make a stupid play like check min raising you simply should lose your stack, because if your folding in that paticular spot you are passing the best hand too often.

I dont think its a fold.

mewso

The overvet would scream draw to me. It's the call from the other guy that makes me fold.

Hectorjelly

If you put one person on a draw then it becomes even less of a fold. Folding a set is ok if you have multiple people happy to put their stacks in, you dont really know what they all have but at least one of them has an overset. Its so much easier for a player to have 1 pair, 2 pair or a draw than a set, that baring some really good read I dont think you can ever lay it down.

Ive never folded a set (fearing a higher one), except where my opponent has check min raised me or something similar, and even in those spots I try and get to a showdown rather than folding.

cardshark202

loosecannon wrote:

i would also like to see if you had done the initial post without the results of the hand (the other guys having Ac10c and KK) how many people would still be advocating a call?????

I would, and I would call pretty quickly. There are way too many hands you can beat and only two that you can't. And this is a tournament so you should expect most players to play hands worse.

Hitman Actual

I'm calling here as well. Two hands beat you, but I'd usually discount TT here as well, expecting a raise preflop.

fuzzbox

jbravado wrote:

I cant understand how bottom set with two people willing to put their tournament lives on the line is an "instant" call.....

I cant understand how its not.

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

I cant understand how its not.

Exactly.

jbravado

Why is 77 not a conceivable hand for the caller....presumably he must have something strong....why is this not in his range?

Be gentle....

cardshark202

Its concievable but so it T7s, J9s, JJ, maybe, some one pair hands and other bit draws. Bottom set is a monster, pretty much unfoldable in this scenario and most scenarios imo.
Call.

Hectorjelly

jbravado wrote:

Why is 77 not a conceivable hand for the caller....presumably he must have something strong....why is this not in his range?

Be gentle....

it is

RoundTower

cardshark202 wrote:

And why are people scared to get their chips in just because its the first hand? You shouldn't play if you're that scared.

It's the first hand of a €3k tournament so with no reads I give my opponents the benefit of the doubt and assume either they are not morons, or they are morons but they won't get it all in for 200BB with one pair on the first hand. With this read a set is a much bigger part of the callers range than a draw or one pair.

Hectorjelly

RoundTower wrote:

It's the first hand of a €3k tournament so with no reads I give my opponents the benefit of the doubt and assume either they are not morons, or they are morons but they won't get it all in for 200BB with one pair on the first hand.

It was the first hand of a 3k event and three players got involved in a pot.

Player A had KK and put in 199 blinds in on the flop after getting a raise and a reraise on the flop. There was something like 4 blinds in the pot preflop

Player B had a pair and a flush draw and managed to bet 190 blinds into a pot with about 12 blinds in it.

Player C flopped a set and folded

Judged by this I think giving people the benefit of the doubt isnt really rational.

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

It was the first hand of a 3k event and three players got involved in a pot.

Player A had KK and put in 199 blinds in on the flop after getting a raise and a reraise on the flop. There was something like 4 blinds in the pot preflop

Player B had a pair and a flush draw and managed to bet 190 blinds into a pot with about 12 blinds in it.

Player C flopped a set and folded

Judged by this I think I should play more tournaments

.

fuzzbox

In general, dont give ppl in tourneys the benefit of the doubt.

.

Call.

MrPillowTalk

Im surprised so many people are willing to call quickly here with bottom set, obviously I would have called the first guy in an instant however I have shown strength by my raise, this guys all in and the initial raiser still wants to put his stack in, this screamed 77 to me.

What everyone is saying makes sense and it probably is a call however I dont think its all that clear cut as being made out, sure we can put player B on a "range of hands" however Im inclined to think by far the most likely in that range is 77.

Also 2nd level of the EPT in france I went out set over set, the Irish open was the first big buyin tourney I had played since that and didnt want to exit in a similar fashion, this may have influenced my fold.

Maybe Im a big "weak tighty" but its not often I fold a set, I just didnt think it was good. Incidentally the A10 guy was a scandie who apparently is up over a million quid online this year..............obviously not in tournaments

RoundTower

I want to ask the call people would they call with AA here, but I don't know how to change the action so that AA would be a conceivable hand. Actually I think AA does significantly worse against villain's range so maybe it isn't a great question. Although this hand would be great if you could show down KK vs AA after that preflop action.

ocallagh

RoundTower wrote:

I want to ask the call people would they call with AA here, but I don't know how to change the action so that AA would be a conceivable hand. Actually I think AA does significantly worse against villain's range so maybe it isn't a great question. Although this hand would be great if you could show down KK vs AA after that preflop action.

have u been drinking dave?

ocallagh

IMO, 60% of the time they have 77+.
40% of the time you will lose 30% of the time..

fold

fuzzbox

ocallagh wrote:

IMO, 60% of the time they have 77+.
40% of the time you will lose 30% of the time..

fold

Thats crazy talk.

Daithio

Whatever arguments there may be for calling, it certainly isn't a straightforward call as a lot of people are making it out to be. I've never seen anybody get all their chips in on the first hand of a big tournament with a draw, and I will never factor in that somebody might have a draw if they are all in on the first hand of the tournament. To factor it in as a possibility is extremely naive I think. Just as HJ says it's almost never correct to fold a set, I think it's even more correct never to put somebody on a draw who is all in on the first hand of a big buy in tournament. There is a small chance that they have a draw, but to factor it in as a possibility is a losing strategy in the long run. That takes quite alot of the possible hands in the range that you are beating out of the equation, and leans it more towards a fold IMO.