Where have our manners gone?

Freedomfighter

Im not sure if this is the right place for this if so my apologies...
I am 27, when i was growing up i was always told and corrected for my manners. Please and thank you. For everthing. Dont speak with your mouth full and close your mouth while your chewing. Dont slurp you drink or hit your fork off your teeth.
Now im sure everyone will agree that these are the basic rules if you will for life. But i was in work looking at people slurping their tea/coffee eating with their mouths open. I mean come on my tea does be hot but i dont have to slurp it. People actually slurping cold water.
Then people rarely say please or thank you anymore.
What has happened to the world?
Im far from posh or from Dublin 4 or the likes but i was raised to follow these steps. But im finding fewer and fewer people that were raised like me.
Am i wrong to be giving out here or is the world becoming rude.

Dirk Gently

On the up side it actually means something on the rare occasion people say please or thank you. I do be genuinely happy when someone is nice to me as it is so rare these days that it sounds genuinely warm when someone actually does it.

A classic example is the girl in the Chinese down the road. I actually go in because she is so warm and friendly and sounds so genuine. Its obvious she is a nice person and not someone who coldly says "nice one" with a big sour puss on them because they were told they have to say thanks.(ok she's hot too)

Enforcing manners on someone doesn't work. It means nothing if it doesn't come from the person and instead is something they feel they have to do. I'd rather get 10 cold looks and one genuine friendly exchange than have everyone being polite to me because they feel they have too.

It’s more honest to let people decide themselves how they interact with other people. It’s handy too when someone pisses you off and you can just tell them to eat sh!t and die instead of pretending to be mannerly to them.

Freedomfighter

But i was brought up to be well mannered. Now if someone serves me i need to say thank you. I feel weird saying nothing. I need to say please, its just the way i was brought up. And i mean it everytime i say it. But what about people who slurp their water or chew with their mouth open. I mean come on its just bad ****** manners.

Dirk Gently

Freedomfighter wrote:

But what about people who slurp their water or chew with their mouth open. I mean come on its just bad ****** manners.

If its at the point where it offends you so much then tell them. Shame them into changing their habits. I don't really get offended by simple things like that and don't understand why people are so sensitive about chewing and slurping, unless their purposely trying to put me off reading my paper or something.

The thing that really annoys me is when someone cuts across me mid sentence and basically has a conversation with themselves while not listening to my replies. I mean why ask questions if you cut off the person trying to reply and answer the question yourself. Some people love the sound of their own voice too much. Its the people who don’t realise they do this that annoy me most. Off to manners boot camp with them alright.

I once walked into the toilets in work to find one of the lads trimming his pubic hair in the mirror. He looked at me and didn't even flinch. Just continued to groom himself. I consider that to be bad manners more so than someone chewing with their mouth open. Manners are relative. If your in a group which accepts certain things like slurping or chewing then its not bad manners to do so in front of them. It's all about the environment your in and being aware of peoples sensitivities around you. I don’t think there is a universal set of rules for all circumstances you might find yourself in, except trimming your pubes in a public place, that’s just universally wrong.

bonkey

Freedomfighter wrote:

Now im sure everyone will agree that these are the basic rules if you will for life.

I don't agree at all.

I know that I was brought up this way, but I can also remember knowing lots of people my age who apparently weren't. Well - either apparently were'nt, or managed to stage a succesful childhood revolution against their parents on this issue.

There was also no shortage of adults around when I was a kid (not so long before you were one) who didn't live by these rules either.

What has happened to the world?

Here's where I start agreeing again, because even if things were far from uniformly great back in my childhood, what I see from kids today is bordering on intolerable.

As to what has happened? Parents spending less time / less energy with/on the kids, the internet, the playstation generation, 'gangsta' and 'playah' culture/style....take your pick from those and a myriad of other things.

jc

bonkey

clown bag wrote:

The thing that really annoys me is when someone cuts across me mid

Whats your problem with that?

jcoote

it could be a product of people having more than previous generations..

For example going for a meal:

Before going for a meal was only done on special occasions and it was a big deal to be waited on and have food and drink served to us.

Nowadays people go for meals all the time for birthdays and anniversaries and well something to do of an evening ,so its no so big a deal and manners are forgotten about because its not appreciated as much.

The same could be said for children with new playstaion games every week, the best of clothes and all the sweets they can eat.The kids will still get them even if they don't say please and thanks so why say it.

In saying that manners is a vital part of society and should never go out of fashion

DadaKopf

Freedomfighter wrote:

Im far from posh or from Dublin 4

Haha, why should Dublin 4 be the source of all manners?

Dinnertable manners and etiquette are interesting - these rules were largely invented by an upwardly mobile, and avaricious, middle-class who saw these rules as a route to aristocracy. They were also a way to exclude those below them.

Perhaps what you're talking about is people being aware of others.

clown bag wrote:

Manners are relative.

I agree, broadly speaking. Except that, as a culture, we have a set of loosely agreed norms of behaviour. What has changed is accelerated individualism and cultural diversity in Irish society. Individualism is the most significant change because it undermines society and makes cultural integration more difficult.

I certainly agree with bonkey - I know plenty of people back through many generations who don't have 'good table manners' etc. Manners are learned, primarily at home. So long as awareness and respect for others - forming familial relationships with others - are also taught, I'm happy to put up with 'bad table manners'.

But, I have trouble working out whether our changing social rules is evidence of a more open society (good) or a more individualist society (bad).

The cause is the culture-ideology of consumerism (sorry for this phrase, but it's the best one I know to explain it).

bonkey

jcoote wrote:

For example going for a meal:

I dunno about you, but I was made bnehave the same at the dinner table at home as when we went out.

Then again, there is a big difference straight away, I guess. We ate at the table, as a family. The thought of eating in front of the TV or wherever was just not done.

fly_agaric

Freedomfighter wrote:

Am i wrong to be giving out here.

Yes. Instilling manners into children is a form of oppression. Oppression I tell you. Evil, evil, evil, evil!

We must allow them to decide how they want to behave towards others and not guide them in any way.

They will automatically do the right thing because people are good. Yes, people are good fluffy-bunnies corrupted by the bad-bad world...by satanic concepts like civility and good manners.

Even if they don't somehow cop what the "appropriate";) behaviour is in a given situation, so what? Who cares!

As someone said earlier on this thread, it's all relative, isn't it!
So if they want to tell their teachers to go f-themselves when they get given out to, or pick their nose and fart in public, more power to 'em I say.
Sometimes I wished I could do that when I was a kid so why should children today have to suffer like I did and not be themselves.

If anyone ever told off my child for behaving "badly" in public I'd kill them and I'd be well within my rights to do so.

You hear that? MY RIGHTS!

Nevyn

It has to do with respect.
Behaving in a way that in mannerly shows that you repect the other person and your self and that you have standards.

Yes children need to be taught to have manners and how to behave,
best way to do that is to teach by example.
Manners and civility cost nothing and make interactions with people a lot more plesant.

I so correct children that I see behaving badly, I do admonish the 4 year old I hear telling someone to Fcuk off esp if their parent is not there.

Children that are not touhgt manners and hwat is not approprate behaviour do not under stand what it is to be respected and do not respect others.
This is being seen in schools nationwide, primary school teachers having to deal with children who have no idea how to behave and secondary school teachers being abused and harrashed.

When did having good manners become a weak thing ?

Dirk Gently

bonkey wrote:

Whats your problem with that?

Ahh very good Mr. bonkey , doesn't really work on an internet forum though, really just live conversations.

growler

DadaKopf wrote:

Dinnertable manners and etiquette are interesting - these rules were largely invented by an upwardly mobile, and avaricious, middle-class who saw these rules as a route to aristocracy. They were also a way to exclude those below them.

interesting point, etiquette was a good way of "testing" one's class, puzzling out the myriad of knives, forks and wineglasses was more complex the higher up the social ladder you went. I wonder if this still holds true today? I was fortunate enough to learn good table manners and dining etiquette as a youngster and in my professional life this has helped me, people who have poor manners look out of place at a business meal, posh golf club dinner, even a date in an upmarket restaraunt. Guess its pure snobbery in action really.

There is no doubt basic manners are rapidly dissappearing, I feel like an idiot these days holding a door for some "lady" who proceeds to stare blankly at by belated and sacastic "your welcome" as she breezes by. Watching parents join their children in a communal litter fest gets my blood boiling. Most basic courtesies have dissappeared and society is a lot worse for it. Cultural diversity certainly plays a part in it, in my own neighbourhood its obvious that, for example, the Turkish and African communities have no hang ups about litter, strangely enough, neither do many of their 1st generation offspring.

I suppose people get so used to the lack of common courtesy in the cities that they stop practicing themselves and so everyone gets dragged down to the bare minimum of grunted acknowledgements and inane, unfelt "have a nice day"-isms.

But when you do encounter someone genuine it almost makes up for all the ignorant w@ankers you have to deal with every day.

edit: related article : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5012300.stm

Freedomfighter

Apparently we live in a civilised society and with that manners i feel are a basic necessity. If we let our kids RAISE themselves it would not turn out nice. You hear about them in your kids class swearing back at the teacher even hitting them. In the end they end up on the preverbial scrap heap. As uneducated, unruley members of a community.
We need to teach our kids basic manners to at least give them a good grounding for future interaction with their fellow human beings.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Freedomfighter wrote:

But i was brought up to be well mannered. Now if someone serves me i need to say thank you. I feel weird saying nothing. I need to say please, its just the way i was brought up. And i mean it everytime i say it. But what about people who slurp their water or chew with their mouth open. I mean come on its just bad ****** manners.

I'm really polite & my brother can't contemplate why there's a need for the word thank you. Youngest brother also extremely mannerly. Parenting doesn't matter much.

It's funny you're blaming modern parents - I work as a guy who hassles people when their current account goes past its overdraft\doesn't have enough money to pay cheques/direct debits presenting - happens to people of all ages. People 18-30 are a hell of a lot more polite than those 30-60. I was told about a survey that backed this statistically but I can't find it on google, will find out off the person later.

nesf

I will definitely be teaching my child manners.

Bottle_of_Smoke

nesf wrote:

I will definitely be teaching my child manners.

Well I'll be teching them .. . . .Actually no I'll just make them feel insecure about not having good ones-

crazy days

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Well I'll be teching them .. . . .Actually no I'll just make them feel insecure about not having good ones-

ha ha Reading your public profile...how'd you teach that to a reptile i'd like to know?

nesf

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

Well I'll be teching them .. . . .Actually no I'll just make them feel insecure about not having good ones-

Beating it into them with a stick is the only option tbh.

colm_mcm

My take on it is this:

Parents aren't spending enough time with children. Teachers are afraid to critisise or correct kids on their behaviour.

Catsmokinpot

colm_mcm wrote:

My take on it is this:

Parents aren't spending enough time with children. Teachers are afraid to critisise or correct kids on their behaviour.

i voted no for the craic, because there had to be at least one , but i agree completely the above statement parents need to spend way more time with children, and kids need to spend less time infront of the television which isnt teaching them anything anymore.

crazy days

colm_mcm wrote:

My take on it is this:

Parents aren't spending enough time with children. Teachers are afraid to critisise or correct kids on their behaviour.

I wouldn't say its the teachers job anyway .......if a parent has bad manners so will the kids

crazy days

Anyone ever in some of the more rougher parts of Dublin lately and walked into a shop ...Did you ever hear the way some mothers swear really badly at their kids ...it really sickens me. "Anto ya little Bastard come here or i'll bleeden kill ya!" and I've heard worse.

Bottle_of_Smoke

crazy days wrote:

ha ha Reading your public profile...how'd you teach that to a reptile i'd like to know?

When she doesn't say thanks i feed her insects, doesn't seem to care

Freedomfighter

crazy days wrote:

Anyone ever in some of the more rougher parts of Dublin lately and walked into a shop ...Did you ever hear the way some mothers swear really badly at their kids ...it really sickens me. "Anto ya little Bastard come here or i'll bleeden kill ya!" and I've heard worse.

I was brought up in one of the worst areas in dublin, but my mother and father wanted me to have a better start in life. It gives your child a grounding in how to treat people with respect. Manners is a form of respect. Ive heard mothers and fathers talk to their children like they were adults. Swearing at them and what not. All it does is teach the child its ok to do it. Can anyone remember the child in their class that was always in trouble, always speaking back, cursing even or striking the teacher.
I can and they are working low paid jobs with nothing to show for their lives. And when i went to school it was still ok but not as much to strike a child. There was still the fear and intimidation a teacher held but not anymore.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Freedomfighter wrote:

I was brought up in one of the worst areas in dublin, but my mother and father wanted me to have a better start in life. It gives your child a grounding in how to treat people with respect. Manners is a form of respect. Ive heard mothers and fathers talk to their children like they were adults. Swearing at them and what not. All it does is teach the child its ok to do it. Can anyone remember the child in their class that was always in trouble, always speaking back, cursing even or striking the teacher.
I can and they are working low paid jobs with nothing to show for their lives. And when i went to school it was still ok but not as much to strike a child. There was still the fear and intimidation a teacher held but not anymore.

i find it usually comes down to the personality of the teacher - some teachers no one talked back to, others everyone talked down at. Maybe that's where the problem really lies.

I think i'll just try my best to make sure my child understands why it's wrong to talk back to adults - and make sure he\she knows when it's right to talk back - A reasonable child shouldnt be opressed by an unreasonable teacher.

Unfortunately they might not be intelligent enough to understand at that age. However in Japan a regular method used is rather than address bad behaviour directly by confronting children they show the child how much upset their behaviour causes through body language etc. and this teaches the child responsibility for their actions.

Grem

Oh im there with you OP.
Manners and the lack of them these days is incredible! I hate when people eat with their mouths open/slurp tea and bite the fork when putting it into their mouth. Nothing drives me more mental.
I actually leave the room when some of my friends eat because they are so noisy.
My parents thought me how to eat properly and i intend to teach my kids (whenever they may arrive) proper table manners.

Sleipnir

I was going into Arnott's one Sunday with my 3 year old and the middle-aged woman in front didn't hold the door as you would if someone is close behind you. She just let it go but I caught it and went through.
Wasn't good enough for my son;
"That lady is so WUDE! She didn't hold the door open for is" he said quite loudly.
She turned around and scowled at us but I just beamed a big smile at her. What was she going to do, defend her lack of manners with a three year old???!!

Thirdfox

Manners may be different for different cultures - for example reading the OP's post he made a mention of slurping of drinks. In Asian countries it is considered respectful to slurp your soup - demonstrating your enjoyment of the host's refreshments. The louder the better!

But there are some generally accepted principles of etiquette - please, thank you and sorry are (or should be) the social norm. My Mother was told by a shop assisstant in China that I was a remarkably courteous young man (all I did was say please and thank you while buying some items) - I was quite embarassed actually . Politeness is appreciated no matter the effort needed however small (perhaps especially if the effort needed is small...)

Sgt Sensible

growler wrote:

Cultural diversity certainly plays a part in it, in my own neighbourhood its obvious that, for example, the Turkish and African communities have no hang ups about litter, strangely enough, neither do many of their 1st generation offspring.

I live in an area with many Turkish people and it's spotless. How do you know for sure it's the dark skinned people littering and not the Irish? Dublin was absolutely filthy long before immigration levels rocketed after all.