Commercial Pilots License

Supercell

Do you have to get a private pilots license before the commercial on a plane ? ( http://www.nfc.ie/courses.htm is a little confusing in this regard).

Thanks

miju

wrong forum dude but if I'm not mistaken in order to get a CPL you have to have so many hours of flight as is likewise with your PPL so in otherwords on your way to a CPL you kinda pick up your PPL by default

qz

miju wrote:

in order to get a CPL you have to have so many hours of flight as is likewise with your PPL so in otherwords on your way to a CPL you kinda pick up your PPL by default

*head explodes*

Pataman

CPL is sort of gone. You must get your PPL first (min45 hours). If you want to fly commercial aeroplanes you get an ATPL(lots of money and airtime)

Supercell

I was speaking to a colleague in work today about this. Their country has enforced military service and as such this is where people learn to fly (you must commit to 10 years military service if you want to be a pilot).

But in a country like Ireland, how do Irish people become pilots ?

At ~180euro per hour i'd really like to know what is the most efficient way of getting a commercial license.

jackofalltrades

Do you have to get a private pilots license before the commercial on a plane ?

No you can skip the PPL altogether and go straight into the CPL.
Although until you get your CPL (not having a PPL) your still a student pilot and are therefore restricted to the terms of that licence. Doing the PPL will give you practice of doing a checkride and also build up your confidence for doing the CPL.

For more info check out www.pprune.org and go to the wannabe section.

Supercell

miju wrote:

wrong forum dude but if I'm not mistaken in order to get a CPL you have to have so many hours of flight as is likewise with your PPL so in otherwords on your way to a CPL you kinda pick up your PPL by default

Thanks , was hoping this was the case tbh.

Where is the cheapest place to log these hours ?!! (in Ireland) do you know.

Supercell

jackofalltrades wrote:

No you can skip the PPL altogether and go straight into the CPL.
Although until you get your CPL (not having a PPL) your still a student pilot and are therefore restricted to the terms of that licence. Doing the PPL will give you practice of doing a checkride and also build up your confidence for doing the CPL.

For more info check out www.pprune.org and go to the wannabe section.

So even if you have CPL you are considered to be PPL in some regards ?

Do the 45 + hours logged to get the PPL count towards the CPL ?(which needs 200+ hours afaik ? )

Pataman

Yes they do count towards it. Why do you want a CPL? Is it to train other pilots or fly commercially.
Incidentally I thought under JAR the CPL was done away with?

Supercell

Pataman wrote:

Yes they do count towards it. Why do you want a CPL? Is it to train other pilots or fly commercially.
Incidentally I thought under JAR the CPL was done away with?

CPL is something I could use to get a job as a pilot(I think!), presumably much more useful than the PPL ?, or is getting the PPL enough to convince prospective employers that you're interested ?

Pataman

No you need an ATPL. This is got by 500 hours(iirc) and lots of exams. You can get a frozen atpl(just do the exams) and hope some crowd will take you under their wing,:D , to complete the training. Get your ppl first, its great fun. I got mine at Airport Flying club, but to be honest the best wa y is to go to the states or south Africa and get it quicker.

Bluehair

Longfield wrote:

Or is getting the PPL enough to convince prospective employers that you're interested ?

Simply put no.

Reaching the qualifications required to earn a living as a pilot (presuming you mean for the airlines) is an expensive and hard slog. Think thirty grand and upwards and you're in the ballpark.

If you're genuinely keen then check out here and spend some long hours reading through the 'wanabes' section for some hard info on what it takes to become a pilot and lots of real-life stories of successes and failures on the way.

Squirrel

My cousin's a commercial pilot, flies for Air France, he's just 30 recently I think. It took a lot of time and money, I know that much.

An aside, he says he really likes the flying, but some mornings he flies to London and back 3 times, a "glorified bus driver", he calls himself. Also it affected his ear there a while ago, he couldn't fly for about 2 months with it. It was on the news a while back ,a CityJet pilot brought to hospital, that was him. The job has its ups and downs (and yes he did intend the pun), but unless you're positive you're going to pursue a career as a pilot he says it's not worth it.

Pataman

Have you done any flying, and I mean in the front seat?

TempestSabre

Pataman wrote:

Have you done any flying, and I mean in the front seat?

Which front seat?

How is getting paid oddles of money not worth it? Its just harder to get into now than it used to be, so you have to invest a lot of money to get into it. Of course you might not make it...

SouperComputer

TempestSabre wrote:

Which front seat?

How is getting paid oddles of money not worth it? Its just harder to get into now than it used to be, so you have to invest a lot of money to get into it. Of course you might not make it...

Id hardly call being a pilot oodles on money. In any case, with increasing fuel costs, consumer demand for cheaper flights the the prospect of technology being used to replace pilots, I would think hard about it in terms of a career.

Make your few bob elsewhere and then buy this

Pataman

TempestSabre wrote:

Which front seat?

The front seat with the controls rather than business class to heathrow.

TempestSabre

Take Ryanair for example...

Captains Up to £100,000 (UK) Up to €130,000 (Eurozone)

First Officers (1,500 hrs) £70,000 (UK) Up to €80,000 (Eurozone)

Beats working in a 9-5 office job IMO. You get lots of time off and cheap travel. Lots of time on reserve aswell. Ok you are busy if on a shorthaul route and in peak season, but then who isn't. I know a good few airline pilots and they are all doing well for themselves.

If you have a better paying job of 100k or more, and get more time off, say 30-40 days a year, then fair enough you are probably better off where you are.

TempestSabre

Pataman wrote:

The front seat with the controls rather than business class to heathrow.

The cost cutting must be bad when theres only one seat for the capt and copilot.

Owen

I'm training for my atpls at the moment, currently almost finished the PPL. I'd recommend going to the Mater Private and doing your Class 1 Aero Medical. If you don't pass this, then there's no point in going any further.

HelterSkelter

You will get answers in the Wannabe forums on www.pprune.com

Big Balls

As much as I love flying (I've done a small amount of PPL stuff) what is it doing in the motor forum???

CPL done away with?? What ya on about??!!

It'd cost a LOT more than 30k to go from zero to frozen ATPL.

HelterSkelter

Last time I priced it it was €100+ for ATPL in Oxford Aviation Training in the UK. And as far as I'm aware the CPL is not done away with.

Big Balls

HelterSkelter wrote:

Last time I priced it it was €100+ for ATPL in Oxford Aviation Training in the UK. And as far as I'm aware the CPL is not done away with.

It's not done away with.

The CPL is the next step after getting a PPL. A frozen ATPL is wayyyyyyy further down the line.

conor_mc

Just for a bit of clarity lads..... there are two ways of getting trained to sit at the pointy end of a flying bus. Namely Modular and Integrated training courses.

Integrated is usually done full-time and you can start at 0 hours and work through all the theory for about 3-4 months before they let you even sit in a plane. You flight training brings you through the rest of the syllabus and if you pass, you'll have a CPL/ME/IR + MCC possibly. (more to follow on them). The big commercial schools like Oxford, Cabair, FTE Jerez all offer these courses and they are bloody expensive, €100k+.

The other route is Modular. As the name suggests, this is a step-by-step path to becoming a pilot and can be done part-time, across different schools and/or countries even.

1) PPL - Private Pilots Licence. For flying Single Engine Piston (SEP)aircraft, Cessna's and the like. Minimum 45 hours, expect to take 55-65 usually. You can take passengers (subject to certain rules) but cannot receive any form of payment. Even going halves on a flight is dodgy here. You can fly during daylight hours, and always clear of cloud.

2) Hour-building. Before beginning a CPL training course, you must have logged 100 hours as Pilot-in-Command, i.e. no instructor. Head to the States/South Africa/Canada to do this and enjoy a 3 week holiday for the price of doing it here in Ireland. Night-rating (5 hours) can be added at this time.

3) ATPL theory exams. Study, study, study. Can be done before the hour-building.

3) CPL - Commercial Pilots Licence. 25 hours min flight training. Must have minimum of 175 hours for award of licence (or is that 200, not sure?). Obviously, 100 of those would have been as PIC in order to start the course. CPL allows you to earn money from flying, but you can't instruct (unless you get an Instructor Rating) and you can still only fly SEP at this stage. Basically, it won't get you much of a job.

4) Multi-Engine Rating - allows you to fly twin-piston aircraft up to a certain weight.

5) Instrument Rating - think it's 55 hours minimum, basically trains you to fly by instruments, so you can fly at night, over cloud, into cloud, etc.

6) Multi-Crew Co-operation (MCC) course - course to train pilots to fly with other pilots in a commercial environment. Usually done in a flight sim. Takes about 2 weeks full-time and no exam at the end.

Frozen Air Transport Pilots Licence (fATPL)= CPL + ME + IR + MCC. Expect to have shelled out €60-70k at this stage vis-a-vis €100k for Integrated. Well done, now you can apply to an airline for a job, assuming they'll provide a.....

7) Type Rating - for turbo-prop/jet engine aircraft requiring 2 crew, you'll need training specific to that Type e.g. Aer Arrans ATR's, Ryanair B737's, CityJets BAe-146's. Costs between €20-35k, but some airlines pay for these, others bond you for them (i.e. if you leave within a certain no. of years, you pay them back proportionately), other like Ryanair expect you to pay for yourself.

8) With total time of 1500 hours, 500 of which on a heavy type-rated aircraft, you can apply for your ATPL. Your ATPL licences you to command a commercial airliner basically.

That's it in a nutshell. I'm open to correction on any point as I'm going from memory....

CaptainSmith

The easiest way to put it if you are concerned about money, etc. is:

1. In Ireland it will cost minimum €55,000 APTL.

2. The Air Corps Accepts About 5 of 10,000 Applicants Per Year (Under 25)

3. Airline Scholarships Are Gone In Ireland, There Is No Easy Way To Get Around That Fact, But Sometimes Opertunities Come Up If You Are Willing To Fly In Less Cushy Jobs In Less Cushy Countries.

4. The US or South Africa will cost you near and arounds (excl living costs) €25,000 over 6-9 months if you're a fast learner.

All airlines prefere to hire ATPL pilots, but some minor cargo and charter companies (operating turbo prop aircraft) sometimes (not normally), hire CPL pilots on low hours, but it is not advisable to aim for this, because they are infrequent and the pay isnt always idea (not enough to pay back your €'s in a short period!).

Hope I helped,
Chrs