army combatives

Tim_Murphy

Apologies if this has been posted before
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1462151077277855734&q=geoff+thompson

Millionaire

Thats a brilliant clip (I scanned it, will watch full on weekend).

I like that, I like what I seen of how they train.

Glove up and get stuck in! Thats what I have been banging
on about for months here, in context of SD training, all these
fancy money rackets...ERRR I mean weekend KM courses, all
BS, unless your training for the long haul, and prepared to get
your hand dirty, spar, take some pain and learn who you react under
pressure.

Plus real training to me is great fun, and all the good old basic stuff
BJJ, Muay Thai...you cannot hide out in these arts, you 'll be found out
in seconds!

Great Stuff. Excellent!

Millionaire

Thats a brilliant clip (I scanned it, will watch full on weekend).

I like that, I like what I seen of how they train.

Glove up and get stuck in! Thats what I have been banging
on about for months here, in context of SD training, all these
fancy money rackets...ERRR I mean weekend KM courses, all
BS, unless your training for the long haul, and prepared to get
your hand dirty, spar, take some pain and learn who you react under
pressure.

Plus real training to me is great fun, and all the good old basic stuff
BJJ, Muay Thai...you cannot hide out in these arts, you 'll be found out
in seconds!

Great Stuff. Excellent!

I do not need to argue my point anymore, Job Done!

Millionaire

Jaysus I was so excited I posted twice!

Vegeta

that was class i watched all of it, no sound but i got the idea

Kinda makes me want to join the army

whupass

god that's long didn't get to see all of it though
If you're going to join the army though i've got some advice

1 DON'T JOIN IN AMERICA. the training might be better BUT you actually have to use it they go to war every few years it's like a tradition.
2 join in ireland we NEVER get into wars (unless it's against england) and all we do is peace keeping, not completely safe but better than war, and it means you can be a patriot.

Miles Long

I'm watching it but doing work is getting in the way :mad: I love the bit " We call this the George Forman guard" Is that geoff thompson "presenting" it or is it just his curriculum that's been integrated into the U.S. army?

loz

whupass wrote:

2 join in ireland we NEVER get into wars (unless it's against england)

A few days of spud chucking doen't make a war ...:D

Roper

Centuries of oppression and now we've got to put up with their smarts...

Millionaire

Down where I grew up, the SAS could not beat the "Spud Chuckers".

anyway thats all old hat now, thank God, and we're on to bright and peaceful days.

Anyway thisd thread is off topic...

I have really noticed about the film clip, no one has chimed in "thats a match fight, not a street fight" as in me and the SD boys, or no one has mention "if you want to prove yourself, come in to ring of truth" or healthy! LOL!!!

Why I wonder????

Cause its combatives (for the real thing), its real training, its MMA, its BJJ, Its Muay Thai....is the whole the all together....its the real thing!

This is what SD training should be like for the most part. Though I still retain my palm strike as my weapon # 1.

Manic Moran

I really like that line near the beginning: "The winner of hand-to-hand combat will be the person whose buddy shows up first with a gun"

Some definitely good points made. Not least that you're not playing to rules or for score.

I went through Basic in 2001, just before that video was made. I recognise a lot of it, but truth be told, we only did two days of hand-to-hand, and two days of bayonet combat. I don't think it's much of an issue, Americans go into battle festooned with so many weapons that I never worried about the fact that I didn't carry a bayonet or knife. (Though most of my soldiers carried one). I do remember my bayonet drills far better than my unarmed drills though, so I guess I'm not a good unarmed combat student.

I don't think the Army considers it much of a problem either: I can't recall the last time the US Army did a bayonet fight, much less an unarmed engagement. I believe it's kept in the curriculum primarily for psychological purposes. They don't spend enough time at it in general units to gain any form of technical proficiency, yet they still train it. I can't think of any other likely reason why.

In my case, I had a cannon, three machineguns at my command, and carried a rifle and pistol when on ops. If it came down to hand-to-hand, something had gone so seriously wrong that being able to defeat one opponent in CQB is probably moot anyway.

NTM

Millionaire

is n't that what the army guy on the vid said too..

That the H 2 H training was to build warrior mind set, and that was more important, than the slim fact that one was going to end up in a boxing match in the middle of a battle field.

I often wonder in WWI in the trenches, were there was horrible bayonet fights, fights with trench spades, and actual hand to hand fighting, what it was like or what went down.. in those days with soldiers would have had minimal preparation of this I think. I read a book full of accounts of trench life and combat from surviving WWI vets published by british war museum in late 60s (forgotten voices.. i think it was called)...and it had some horrible accounts.

Thank God we live in a better world.

loz

Manic Moran wrote:

I went through Basic in 2001, just before that video was made. I recognise a lot of it, but truth be told, we only did two days of hand-to-hand, and two days of bayonet combat.
NTM

Well done !

I think thats the first time iv'e seen an honest post from a forces or ex-forces person, They normally hype up the forces/military training mystic sooo much.

I have to concur - although i was British Forces, we also only did 2 days or so, of so-called hand-to-hand ( one step sparing i'd call it now, so you can tell how advnaced it was ! ) although my Basic was back in 90 so things may have changed now - although i doubt it, opposing forces are normally much more remote than they used to be, with todays modren weaponry.

When we migrated from the SLR to the SA80 ( SmallArms for the 80's if you dont know the meaning - and it didnt arrive till early part of 90's LOL ) bayonette training was dropped altogether mainly due to fact the new carbon fibre bayonetts would snap when impacting wet combats.

The only blade we would normally just carry ( for no practicle reason - although make good wire cutters, and are great for dicing chicken) Kukree's we'd barter off the Gurka Signals guys.

either that or the Gerber or leatherman tool ! bough cheep from the BX!!!


Loz

loz

Millionaire wrote:

Down where I grew up, the SAS could not beat the "Spud Chuckers".

anyway thats all old hat now, thank God, and we're on to bright and peaceful days.

It's called humour Gerry........:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Millionaire

It ain't something to be joked about, alot of people lives on both side were ruined by this, which thank god is near 10 years finished.

Michael O Leary

Hi all,

I noticed that in the video they had certain "drills". For example cycles of movements carried out with repetition escaping from the mount going through various movments so that you then end up in the mount and the cycle repeats itself.

My question is about these drills. Were they invented by the army using BJJ techniques or are these drills an integral part of the BJJ training method itself?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Baggio...

Loz,

Seems pretty obvious to me that Military personnel spend very little time on hand to hand combat. Not too sure why anyone would think otherwise. Why would they waste their time at becoming very proficient at it anyway? Obviously they use a “primary weapon”, Combatives should only be used when something has gone totally wrong, and the soldier can't get to a secondary weapon. Soldiers are generally tough opponents not because they are amazingly skilled at H2H but they have that killer mentality, which of course is embraced and cultivated when they go into the forces (and are bloody fit to boot). However some of the techniques that they employ are very effective – they have to be, as they will probably only get one chance to get it right. Don't get me wrong, there are some military units that still use some TMA crapola methods. Luckily most of them have wised up

B.

judomick

hi Michael, these drills are common in Bjj classes, drilling movements repetively against resisting opponents (40,60,80% resistence) is imo essential for bringing on someones game and helps them to learn specific movements (hip escapes,pendulums, regaining guard etc)


back to topic, so the army use bjj, thai and judo + wrestling for self-defence, real combat? who woulda thunk it?:p

woody

whupass wrote:

god that's long didn't get to see all of it though
If you're going to join the army though i've got some advice

1 DON'T JOIN IN AMERICA. the training might be better BUT you actually have to use it they go to war every few years it's like a tradition.
2 join in ireland we NEVER get into wars (unless it's against england) and all we do is peace keeping, not completely safe but better than war, and it means you can be a patriot.

Depends on what unit you join in the US Army, Ireland has an active combat role in several thearhtes (can't spell today) including Afghanistan so I would'nt be to sure about that...:rolleyes:

Most of the ARW now are doing KM and passing it onto certain infantry units Primarily in the 2 Eastern Brigade

Mick Coup

Loz,

I'd be very interested to hear more about these 'carbon fibre bayonets' that would snap against wet combat clothes - bayonet training was never dropped with the advent of the SA80 rifle, just modified. The bayonets were and still are made of metal - not the high carbon steel of the old SLR bayonet but certainly good enough to go straight through you with ease and slash you open without too much effort.

'Unarmed combat' training has never been on the basic military syllabus, although the Royal Marines still have some lessons during basic training - any instruction you received was more likely to have been an unofficial 'interest' period.

Mick

woody

loz wrote:

Well done !

I think thats the first time iv'e seen an honest post from a forces or ex-forces person, They normally hype up the forces/military training mystic sooo much.

I have to concur - although i was British Forces, we also only did 2 days or so, of so-called hand-to-hand ( one step sparing i'd call it now, so you can tell how advnaced it was ! ) although my Basic was back in 90 so things may have changed now - although i doubt it, opposing forces are normally much more remote than they used to be, with todays modren weaponry.

When we migrated from the SLR to the SA80 ( SmallArms for the 80's if you dont know the meaning - and it didnt arrive till early part of 90's LOL ) bayonette training was dropped altogether mainly due to fact the new carbon fibre bayonetts would snap when impacting wet combats.

The only blade we would normally just carry ( for no practicle reason - although make good wire cutters, and are great for dicing chicken) Kukree's we'd barter off the Gurka Signals guys.

either that or the Gerber or leatherman tool ! bough cheep from the BX!!!


Loz

We still had Bayonet Training in my Regiment across the water aswell in early 92, we had just migrated from the SLR to the SA80 the first being the better weapon for bayonet training...Although try it with a Steyr which I did when I came here it twas rather funny ;-)

Millionaire

I always though the likes of the SAS, and those undercover DETs units (who worked in the North & on the Border) would have had H2H training???

I guess when your armed, H2H is not a major issues then?

Manic Moran

Millionaire wrote:

I always though the likes of the SAS, and those undercover DETs units (who worked in the North & on the Border) would have had H2H training???

I guess when your armed, H2H is not a major issues then?

I presume it would depend really to a large extent on what your job is. For all the mystique, all the SAS's roles are armed roles. I wouldn't be surprised if they do a lot more H2H for confidence training if nothing else, but if you bear in mind that I, a humble ground-pounder whose primary weapon is a tank, not my rifle, walked around Iraq with some 300 rounds of 5.56mm and 45 rounds of 9mm strapped to me, it's probably fair to assume that SAS lads are at least as well festooned and highly unlikely to run out of arms and ammunition to the extent that they need to engage in unarmed combat. (If nothing else, they just pick up the Kalashnikovs and ammo that the guys they just killed using the other 300 rounds were carrying)

I would wager that your common or garden US policeman gets a lot more hand-to-hand training than your common or garden soldier. The general 'rule of thumb' for going from armed combat to close quarters is about 30 feet. i.e, if you're a cop with a sidearm in a holster, chances are that the chap you're facing off will cover the 30 feet before you have time to react, draw and fire. Military almost always go around a potentially dangerous situation with a weapon up and ready, the 'danger' zone thus is a lot closer: If you have a pistol ready, it's easy enough to maneuver in close situations, if your rifle is up, you already have a baton/club in your hands. Even if the rifle is knocked out, our pistol holsters are generally low-slung leg holsters, which are more naturally accessible than a police-style hip holster.

So again, I think this all reinforces that H2H in the Army is done more for the sake of tradition and psychology than any expected practical application.

Incidently, don't forget that the Princess of Wales' Own Regiment conducted a bayonet charge in Iraq a year or two ago. The British seem to have a tradition of having to have one in every war they participate in, but again, bayonet charges are almost always won or lost before the two sides ever make contact: It's all psychological.

NTM

TapouT

woody wrote:

Depends on what unit you join in the US Army, Ireland has an active combat role in several thearhtes (can't spell today) including Afghanistan so I would'nt be to sure about that...:rolleyes:

Most of the ARW now are doing KM and passing it onto certain infantry units Primarily in the 2 Eastern Brigade

Our role in Afghanistan is an Admin one, its non-com. so using Afghanistan is a poor example. We do however have an infantry battlion in Liberia.

The defence forces is currently revising the unarmed combat syllabus. I'm not sure what role the ARW has to play in it.

I know the defence forces looked at Judo as an option, since we already have an active judo club/team but DDFT decided on KM.

Manic Moran

While the US Army is willing to take tips/styles from a variety of different martial arts, the primary one their took from was actually streetfighting. As the least-structured of all the fighting arts, it's probably most going to correlate with what will be found on the battlefield. The 'ready' position, for example, I believe correlates with no particular formal art. (Hands in fists up by the face, elbows tucked in, torso bent forward, basically a modified boxing stance)

NTM