M3 and 'N'8

darkman2

It strikes me as frankly bizarre how the N3 gets an all out motorway and some seem to be implying the 'N'8 wont be motorway.

You will notice on the NRA website how the current Fermoy bypass (we know it will be motorway) is actually labelled 'N'8. TBH I think there is a bit of slyness going on here. And then they say their building a 'dual carriageway to motorway standard' just up the road. I think this is rubbish, and their only labelling it as such to ease concerns from local residents (i.e a dual carrigeway sounds alot less intrusive then a motorway). Im willing to bet my mortgage that the entire 'N'8 will be in fact M8 when its complete and that the sections labelled 'N'8 at the moment will be changed. The entire 'N'8 will be entirely motorway standard when its finished. The stuff coming from the NRA in relation to the route is evasive at best. I remain to be convinced that the entire 'N'8 will in fact not be motorway.

Why have the NRA come out so in favour of an M3 route whilst at the same time being so incoherent about the M8? (and I know ppl will say IFA, but personally I do not buy that) It just dose not make any sense. The ppl in the NRA are alot of things but their not stupid enough to leave us with an incomplete patchwork of motorways.

Fool 5000

Why have the NRA come out so in favour of an M3 route whilst at the same time being so incoherent about the M8?

I think it is because the M3 has a toll on it . The NRA wants the people to think its worth their money to travel on a MOTORWAY rather than a mere dual carriageway . Its the same on the M/N8 with a motorway section between Portlaoise/Cullahill

Victor

One could argue about the developers who have bought up the land along the M3.

One could argue that the M3 leads to Dublin and will be a commuter route.

One could argue that without hard shoulders, the N8 can't be a motorway.

nordydan

Victor wrote:

One could argue about the developers who have bought up the land along the M3.

One could argue that the M3 leads to Dublin and will be a commuter route.

One could argue that without hard shoulders, the N8 can't be a motorway.

which sections of the n8 are planned without motorway?

Victor

nordydan wrote:

which sections of the n8 are planned without motorway?

You mean without hard shoulders? All the high quality dual carriageways will have a 1m hard strip instead of a hard shoulder.

bazzer06

Victor wrote:

You mean without hard shoulders? All the high quality dual carriageways will have a 1m hard strip instead of a hard shoulder.

Really?? i was under the impression that high quality dual carriageways were built to motorway standard and that the only difference was that there were no motorway restrictions.

Lennoxschips

as far as I know the only difference is that the N motorways have a dotted yellow line instead of a solid one

also, the bends might be slightly sharper (100 km/hr design speed instead of 120 km/hr)

and there are less/no emergency phones

but yeah, i agree with you that if you are going to build a motorway you may as well call it one. it looks nicer on the road map.

Navan Junction

darkman2 wrote:

It strikes me as frankly bizarre how the N3 gets an all out motorway..... ....Why have the NRA come out so in favour of an M3 route whilst at the same time being so incoherent about the M8?

Two words: Double Tolls

Kells was supposed to be by-passed in the sixties, Dunshaughlin recently as well..

A road has to be a motorway to be tolled. All upgrade plans of the N3 and by-passes were shelved to double toll it.

Look at the daft Dunshaughlin QBC project that has been ongoing for the past 9 months - they should have just built a by-pass instead of spending that money to broaden the funnel into Dunshaughlin's main street.

4 tolls each day from Kells to Clonee is not a success indicator - that's 4 tolls without leaving Meath - think about it..:mad:

nordydan

Navan Junction wrote:

A road has to be a motorway to be tolled.

Really? Does that mean than the waterford bypass will be the M25 and the oranmore ballinasloe section of the N6 actually be M6?

murphaph

The "what's the difference between a HQDC and a m-way" as been done to death. I have posted pages from the NRA design manual (couldn't be bothered finding it) and it couldn't be clearer-a HQDC built today is built as if it were a motorway. The only physical differences being emergency phones (but I bet they install the cable ducting in case!), signage colour and dashed verge markings. The sight lines etc. are exactly the same as for a motorway (which may also have a lower design speed of say 100km/h as in the M50 SE motorway, due to terrain and weather conditions).

I have read somewhere that the N6 Ballinasloe-Galway will be motorway by the way, as it's a tolled road and would appear to follow the pattern. I think it's because no toll operator would take on board a road that could see people building their own illegal accesses and then applying for PP retention. The toll operators want to make sure they have the legal right to stop up any illegal accesses, no questions asked(which is allowed in the motorway legislation of 1974).

nordydan

murphaph wrote:

The "what's the difference between a HQDC and a m-way" as been done to death. I have posted pages from the NRA design manual (couldn't be bothered finding it) and it couldn't be clearer-a HQDC built today is built as if it were a motorway. The only physical differences being emergency phones (but I bet they install the cable ducting in case!), signage colour and dashed verge markings. The sight lines etc. are exactly the same as for a motorway (which may also have a lower design speed of say 100km/h as in the M50 SE motorway, due to terrain and weather conditions).

I have read somewhere that the N6 Ballinasloe-Galway will be motorway by the way, as it's a tolled road and would appear to follow the pattern. I think it's because no toll operator would take on board a road that could see people building their own illegal accesses and then applying for PP retention. The toll operators want to make sure they have the legal right to stop up any illegal accesses, no questions asked(which is allowed in the motorway legislation of 1974).

surely the local county councils or ABP would not be so stupid as to grant private accesses to the newly constructed HQDCs? Or then again...

nordydan

Victor wrote:

You mean without hard shoulders? All the high quality dual carriageways will have a 1m hard strip instead of a hard shoulder.

Does this not refer to a normal DC?

Lennoxschips

The Dublin Eastlink isn't a motorway and it's tolled.

(which may also have a lower design speed of say 100km/h as in the M50 SE motorway, due to terrain and weather conditions).

Yeah, there are plenty of motorway designated roads here in Holland with 100 km/hr limits. Some of them, like the A44 to The Hague are pushing it when it comes to calling them motorways.

darkman2

I agree with what has been said about toll roads mostly being motorways. I cant find anywhere on the internet that say the new sections of motorway on the N8 will be labelled either N8 or M8. It just dosnt make any sense to make the Fermoy bypass M8 and then build a motorway just up the road and label it N8. It will all be motorway standard. If you travel on roads in the UK for example they have lesser qaulity roads then the N8 will be that are labeled motorways when they really shouldnt be...the M50 motorway to nowhere for example. I think I will send an email about that to the NRA.

murphaph

Lennoxschips wrote:

The Dublin Eastlink isn't a motorway and it's tolled.

I knew someone would say that and I thought about it before I posted. Try building a private access onto the East Link though! Bridges are very different than long 40km sections of motorway when it comes to protecting them from illegal accesses being constructed. The N25 Waterford Bypass will be the real test for all this I reckon.

darkman2

murphaph wrote:

The "what's the difference between a HQDC and a m-way" as been done to death. I have posted pages from the NRA design manual (couldn't be bothered finding it) and it couldn't be clearer-a HQDC built today is built as if it were a motorway. The only physical differences being emergency phones (but I bet they install the cable ducting in case!), signage colour and dashed verge markings. The sight lines etc. are exactly the same as for a motorway (which may also have a lower design speed of say 100km/h as in the M50 SE motorway, due to terrain and weather conditions).

I have read somewhere that the N6 Ballinasloe-Galway will be motorway by the way, as it's a tolled road and would appear to follow the pattern. I think it's because no toll operator would take on board a road that could see people building their own illegal accesses and then applying for PP retention. The toll operators want to make sure they have the legal right to stop up any illegal accesses, no questions asked(which is allowed in the motorway legislation of 1974).

I think you may be right http://www.irishtrucker.com/news/2005/august/0808056.asp. Why dont the NRA just produce a map of the finished network with the relevant numbers.

This is off topic but just spotted it http://www.irishtrucker.com/news/2006/april/1404064.asp. Well done guys.

mysterious

It's also sly that the N7 get's no M classed road outside of the Existing M7/M8 spur, the new Nenagh to Limerick section was downgraded since 1999.. But it seems like it was never heard of, The NRA kept it quiet,

As I said before the Nenagh section has much higher traffic than either the N7 length or the majority of the N8 length,

It carries over 14,000 vehicles a day, 6,000 of this is Limerick - Nenagh generated. Surely it should have being classed to M7...

When the Nenagh bypass was included later in the scheme they changed the entire route to HQDC, that's sly..

Fool 5000

Like this

Despite indications the new road would be a motorway (M2), Ashbourne's new link to the capital will be a dual-carriageway, yet surprisingly it will be subject to a standard motorway speedlimit of 120km/h when the schemes draft special speed limit bye-laws formed under the Road Traffic Act 2004 are established into law.The bye-laws are currently subject to a period of public consultation.The new road will be known as the N2, with the old N2 from Coldwinters to Rath Cross being renamed the R135

darkman2

Fool 5000 wrote:

Like this

The question - why? If its a motorway its a motorway. I dont see the need for this confusion. In fact the new road is probrably better then most motorways in Ireland. Crazy stuff.

darkman2

mysterious wrote:

It's also sly that the N7 get's no M classed road outside of the Existing M7/M8 spur, the new Nenagh to Limerick section was downgraded since 1999.. But it seems like it was never heard of, The NRA kept it quiet,

As I said before the Nenagh section has much higher traffic than either the N7 length or the majority of the N8 length,

It carries over 14,000 vehicles a day, 6,000 of this is Limerick - Nenagh generated. Surely it should have being classed to M7...

When the Nenagh bypass was included later in the scheme they changed the entire route to HQDC, that's sly..

You mean after the planned M7/M8 beyond Portlaoise? I dont have any answers at all. I mean it just seems a bit silly that we may be left with an incoherent system of motorways.

mysterious

yep. The N20 at Limerick is motorway standard with a wide median and a high quality steel barrier most of it's length, quite impressive for a wait, DC.

It's like some phobia or "issue" with the NRA not to have road with a M blue line on our national route network. They should have it either way DC all the way or M all the way the Cork section is hilarious, you might as well call it the M8.

It sounds better too.

jd

darkman2 wrote:

You mean after the planned M7/M8 beyond Portlaoise? I dont have any answers at all. I mean it just seems a bit silly that we may be left with an incoherent system of motorways.

My guess is local lobbying. Farmer Joe will be able to drive his massey ferguson on the new road. Pedestrians/Cyclists should be banned.
jd

Chris_533976

Well think of it this way. They're building the Portlaoise to Cork section in a ton of different stages, all to be finishing at various times over three years. If each new bit was a motorway, thered have to be a whole new set of motorway start/stop signs everywhere. You'd be going from motorway to cart track every 30 miles or so.

What I think they must be doing is keeping it as unsignposted DC until the whole lot is done. Then, fingers crossed, they'll reclassify the lot as a motorway.

darkman2

Okay, can someone PLEASE clarify this as its very relevant.

I was looking at an old AA map that had the M4 past Liexlip under construction. It was shown on the map as a dual carriage way under contruction, not a motorway. So the question, was that originally to be a dual carriage way? I think if you travel the route it may well have been.

nordydan

Chris_533976 wrote:

Well think of it this way. They're building the Portlaoise to Cork section in a ton of different stages, all to be finishing at various times over three years. If each new bit was a motorway, thered have to be a whole new set of motorway start/stop signs everywhere. You'd be going from motorway to cart track every 30 miles or so.

What I think they must be doing is keeping it as unsignposted DC until the whole lot is done. Then, fingers crossed, they'll reclassify the lot as a motorway.

This actually makes some sense. As someone who is ignorant as to the materials of motorway signs tell me this.
Would it be possible just to put a permanent sticker over each sign (eg some strong adhesive) or would they have to replace them with a new blue coloured metal sign. Where this to be done i would imagine that the signs could be replaced very quickly, especially as the HQDC is built to motorway spec and that their position and supports are already correctly located.

i am saying this in relation to the patchwork they did during the imperial to metric speed limit conversion.

Chris_533976

In any case that wouldnt happen here. They'd build and demolish all the signs, wasting tonnes of money

nordydan

Chris_533976 wrote:

In any case that wouldnt happen here. They'd build and demolish all the signs, wasting tonnes of money

I hear you...

murphaph

nordydan wrote:

Would it be possible just to put a permanent sticker over each sign (eg some strong adhesive) or would they have to replace them with a new blue coloured metal sign

They can re-use the aluminium plates by removing the reflective overlay etc. and replacing it. Don't thin it can be done in situ though and would mean sending all the signs back to Rennicks etc. They re-used all the aluminium sign backings when the Dublin Orbital signs were redesigned completely. In the UK there are examples of roads opened with a future plan to change number (M74->M6) and they designed the future sign and just patched the temporary number over it, to remove it later on. Probably difficult to do this with an entire sign though!

nordydan

murphaph wrote:

They can re-use the aluminium plates by removing the reflective overlay etc. and replacing it. Don't thin it can be done in situ though and would mean sending all the signs back to Rennicks etc. They re-used all the aluminium sign backings when the Dublin Orbital signs were redesigned completely. In the UK there are examples of roads opened with a future plan to change number (M74->M6) and they designed the future sign and just patched the temporary number over it, to remove it later on. Probably difficult to do this with an entire sign though!

I thought that it would be fairly easy to do with signs on feeder roads directing the traffic to the motorway, ie where the road number is just a box on the sign. This was simply to look for an indication as to how quick they could upgrade the signs. Probably would be a back to the shop job, but I am sure that with the right materials (and a large enough sticker) it perhaps could be possible onsite. Would fancy being farmer mick out driving along the N8 just to realise that the signs were changed and theat he was now suddenly on the M8!

Capt'n Midnight

Victor wrote:

You mean without hard shoulders? All the high quality dual carriageways will have a 1m hard strip instead of a hard shoulder.

Anychance they could retrofit that to older roads ?

A good few sections of N road could get an extra lane each way if the hard shoulder was reduced to 1m. Knowing there is a safe place to pass coming up soon should mean people would take less chances on the dodgy bits.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

They re-used all the aluminium sign backings when the Dublin Orbital signs were redesigned completely.

They had only made samples, the entire system did not need reworking.

Hoof Hearted

Well the guys at the NRA and Fingal Co. Council must have reading this thread because they increased the speed limit on the the N2 dual-carriageway to 120km/hr. And it looks like this will be done on other HQDC sections around the country. It wouldn't surprise me if a few of the NRA guys read some of these posts during their "tea break". Maybe we even have a few insider posters on this board, "please own up lads"
I heard something about the N8 in Cork also have it speed limit increased to 120.

Murphaph is right about the investors thing. On a first impression basis some potential countries are eliminated from consideration. When the list is narrowed down only then is the detailed analysis done of the potential countries.
The Michelin road map usually does a good job of distinguishing road types however they have frequent inaccuracies e.g. the HQDCs in the Limerick area are shown as standard dual carriageways and not as "Dual carriageways with motorway characteristics" the term Michelin uses for HQDCs.

mysterious

Hoof Hearted wrote:

Well the guys at the NRA and Fingal Co. Council must have reading this thread because they increased the speed limit on the the N2 dual-carriageway to 120km/hr. And it looks like this will be done on other HQDC sections around the country. It wouldn't surprise me if a few of the NRA guys read some of these posts during their "tea break". Maybe we even have a few insider posters on this board, "please own up lads"
I heard something about the N8 in Cork also have it speed limit increased to 120.

Murphaph is right about the investors thing. On a first impression basis some potential countries are eliminated from consideration. When the list is narrowed down only then is the detailed analysis done of the potential countries.
The Michelin road map usually does a good job of distinguishing road types however they have frequent inaccuracies e.g. the HQDCs in the Limerick area are shown as standard dual carriageways and not as "Dual carriageways with motorway characteristics" the term Michelin uses for HQDCs.

Well if the NRA buddies are reading this, well it's amazing that the N Limerick nenagh section was to start in spring


























why is this road keep put under the shovel?????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

murphaph

Hoof Hearted wrote:

The Michelin road map usually does a good job of distinguishing road types however they have frequent inaccuracies e.g. the HQDCs in the Limerick area are shown as standard dual carriageways and not as "Dual carriageways with motorway characteristics" the term Michelin uses for HQDCs.

Yeah and it's very annoying because at some zoom levels (online version) it shows things correctly, while at others it screws it up. It makes the Cashel bypass look like single carriageway too, when in fact it's HQDC! I blame the OS for that cos they have it wrong in their printed maps too! very embarrasing when the AA maps have it as DC at least!

nordydan

Hoof Hearted wrote:

Well the guys at the NRA and Fingal Co. Council must have reading this thread because they increased the speed limit on the the N2 dual-carriageway to 120km/hr. And it looks like this will be done on other HQDC sections around the country. It wouldn't surprise me if a few of the NRA guys read some of these posts during their "tea break". Maybe we even have a few insider posters on this board, "please own up lads"
I heard something about the N8 in Cork also have it speed limit increased to 120.

Murphaph is right about the investors thing. On a first impression basis some potential countries are eliminated from consideration. When the list is narrowed down only then is the detailed analysis done of the potential countries.
The Michelin road map usually does a good job of distinguishing road types however they have frequent inaccuracies e.g. the HQDCs in the Limerick area are shown as standard dual carriageways and not as "Dual carriageways with motorway characteristics" the term Michelin uses for HQDCs.

The michelin maps are good alright, good choice of linetype for the DCWMC roads. You then get a quick summary on the cover of all these and motorway roads, which will show up well for ireland when the interurban routes are complete.

Lennoxschips

it carries over 14,000 vehicles a day, 6,000 of this is Limerick - Nenagh generated. Surely it should have being classed to M7...

14,000 a day, bejaysus, it should have been 4 lanes each way, at least! just kidding

while i don't agree that these motorways should be built, i agree with you that if we are going to build them that we may as well call them M roads.

mysterious

Lennoxschips wrote:

14,000 a day, bejaysus, it should have been 4 lanes each way, at least! just kidding

while i don't agree that these motorways should be built, i agree with you that if we are going to build them that we may as well call them M roads.

Yeh:rolleyes: Your only repeating what I said anyways...

icdg

To answer the original question, the Fermoy bypass will be a motorway, presumably designated M8: http://www.nra.ie/News/NewsAnnouncements/htmltext,2155,en.html

The rest of the schemes, apart from the Culahill spur from the M7, will be HQ dual (ie N8).

nordydan

icdg wrote:

To answer the original question, the Fermoy bypass will be a motorway, presumably designated M8: http://www.nra.ie/News/NewsAnnouncements/htmltext,2155,en.html

The rest of the schemes, apart from the Culahill spur from the M7, will be HQ dual (ie N8).

also cullahill to urlingford is motorway - for some reason