The game system project

TabulaRasa22

Hello there rpg-ers of boards. I have an old role playing game that I did a crapload of work on about three or four years back, and I'm thinking now about releasing it into the wild, after browsing some rpg sites and finding my appetite whetted once again for role playing mayhem.

What we are talking about here is a more or less fully developed system, 400 odd pages in all, with rules covering everything from ancient and medieval eras, to black powder and galleons, modern day and cyberpunk, to far future and high tech. You can literally play any era you like. Now before anyone gets worried about having to learn 50 pages of new rules on someones pet project, the vast bulk of that is era based equipment lists, spell lists, situation specific rules (flying galleons or WW2 fighters duelling, radiation effects, etc.) and monsters. To get a game going you would really only need to comprehend about 3 pages of simple and intuitive rules based around one single concept.

Its so simple to use in fact, that it lends itself to the adaptation of other game systems to itself. In fact, it was designed with that in mind, and a certain realism I have yet to find in any other system. It can be plugged into any existing world with almost no fuss, and the rules are balanced in a way that means they can be tweaked to suit certain situations easily.

Having looked back over them with the benefit of a corporate education and hindsight, I can see now that it needs a great deal of formatting and re-organisation to be properly usable, something I am in the process of doing right now.

So here's me thoughts; what I was going to do is release it from the web, free of charge for anyone that wants it, with one caveat. Anyone that downloads a copy has to contribute back to the game in some manner, whether it be a few new monsters, new rule ideas for situations I might not have come across, spells, an adaptation of another game system, maps, artwork, whatever. Its similar to the open source model of software development, except you would be required to contribute something back.

I would go over these additions and ideas, playtest them thoroughly (or possibly get others to playtest them if the flood of input became too great for one group to manage), and post them up on the site once a month with a changes and additions list attached to each one. Rejected ideas and additions would get their own section, with a reason given for each, so everyone (except people obviously pulling the piss) would be heard.

A printed version is not on the cards, for the reason that it might be out of date by the time the package arrived at your door, this would be a constantly evolving project free for all to take and use as they see fit. As to why I might do something like this, well the bottom line is that I love role playing, and I want to share that enjoyment with others.

What are your thoughts?

hairyheretic

Have a little wander over here

http://www.irishgaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=129

You may find it useful.

Raphael

That sounds like quite a nice idea, I've always wanted to work on a game, but I've never been committed enough to put together a system. Definately be interested in helping out.

TabulaRasa22

hairyheretic wrote:

Have a little wander over here

http://www.irishgaming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=129

You may find it useful.

Hmm, yes, thats a very good idea. They are trying to build a workshop for all role playing games, a collaborative wiki-style environment... I'm not sure I'd be thrilled about releasing it under creative commons licensing though, I'd rather keep it all under one roof, to be honest. Also cc licensing doesn't require that you give something back either. Contributors would be given credit of course.

The idea is to create a constantly evolving, growing game with a multitude of game worlds and scenarios freely available to all, in one single location, so you don't have to go burrowing through a morass of links to find the supplement or spell or monster you need.

TabulaRasa22

Raphael wrote:

That sounds like quite a nice idea, I've always wanted to work on a game, but I've never been committed enough to put together a system. Definately be interested in helping out.

Excellent, thanks very much! I've a lot of work commitments at the moment, but expect to hear something more within a couple of months, hopefully. One of the important issues I have noticed is that there are a lot of seriously good game worlds out there (Ars Magica, Fading suns, even the original D&D worlds), which are hobbled by poor systems, either lacking in realism or with "uber characters" that everyone eventually ends up playing. Has anyone any ideas about the copyright issues that might arise if someone was to transfer an entire game system across?

I think game mechanics are pretty much free for all, but equipment and skill lists and the like are a bit more of a grey area. Nothing to stop anyone doing it in the privacy of their own group of course, but what if we release it online? Or perhaps someone might want to do a supplement based on a book or a movie; firefly for example, or maybe Stephen Donaldson's Gap series...

Specky

If you're interested either in publishing your material or in finding people to help you get your project completed why not check out this new resource that's there specifically to help folk do precisely those things.

http://www.gamecraftersguild.com

Read the FAQ to see how it works.

humanji

TabulaRasa22 wrote:

Excellent, thanks very much! I've a lot of work commitments at the moment, but expect to hear something more within a couple of months, hopefully. One of the important issues I have noticed is that there are a lot of seriously good game worlds out there (Ars Magica, Fading suns, even the original D&D worlds), which are hobbled by poor systems, either lacking in realism or with "uber characters" that everyone eventually ends up playing. Has anyone any ideas about the copyright issues that might arise if someone was to transfer an entire game system across?

I think game mechanics are pretty much free for all, but equipment and skill lists and the like are a bit more of a grey area. Nothing to stop anyone doing it in the privacy of their own group of course, but what if we release it online? Or perhaps someone might want to do a supplement based on a book or a movie; firefly for example, or maybe Stephen Donaldson's Gap series...

I'm no expert on copyright, but I'd advise keeping away from any copyrighted material. It may not be a problem if you're system is free, but you could be getting yourself into a world of trouble. Just make allowances for anyone who might modify material to your system, but don't do it yourself.

Rev Hellfire

Specky, Your site operates under creative commons license which the OP has stated they are not interested in operating under. Also contacts and discuss both mislink.

Specky

Specky, Your site operates under creative commons license which the OP has stated they are not interested in operating under.

Yes, but CC doesn't really actually preclude you operating under the compulsory contribution scheme proposed.

To be honest, I'm not actually sure how you could make such a system work in reality. For a start, I don't see how you can retrospectively enforce such an idea. You have to allow people download the stuff first, before they can contribute. What you're really doing is *asking* people to contribute (like a sort of in-kind shareware sort of thing, where you're contributing material instead of money). This sort of scheme is most definitely not precluded by CC.

Like all systems, if people find your stuff compelling enough to play then they'll want to play it, and as a result they'll generate material.

I like the ethos, but I doubt the efficacy.

Also contacts and discuss both mislink.

Crumbs...that's what happens when you throw together a site in <4 hours Thanks. I think they're all fixed now.

TabulaRasa22

I'm no expert on copyright, but I'd advise keeping away from any copyrighted material. It may not be a problem if you're system is free, but you could be getting yourself into a world of trouble. Just make allowances for anyone who might modify material to your system, but don't do it yourself.

Sadly I fear you may be right. Not to detract from the hard work of the game designers, but I roleplay for the fun of it, and when the toughest battle is trying to create a character and then trying to reconcile rules diverging with reality, there is a problem.

The depth and breadth of some game worlds are staggering in their complexity and beauty, and well, I want to play in those sandboxes! I'll seek professional advice there I think; the only things that need to be converted are skill lists, beasties, spells and/or powers, and equipment. The maps and game worlds could then be used at will, so people would still have to buy the game they wanted to buy. Its more there to allow people to take what they have already, and use it more fully. Also, ever since the Lord of the Rings was written, game systems have borrowed very heavily on all sides, so there might be a few angles to pursue.

Yes, but CC doesn't really actually preclude you operating under the compulsory contribution scheme proposed.

True, but the problem I have is that it allows other people to take your material and publish it, albeit with due credit given (note that does not specify linking back to the site). The last thing I want is a mass of other sites, blogs, geocities accounts, and forum postings with their own supplements and monsters.

First, its not fair to the other players of the game, who should have the right to be able to access all the resources available easily and quickly, and second, the game system is balanced now, due to hundreds of hours of playtesting (thousands?), so the final editorial control over the project should be left with its creator, in order to maintain that balance.

To be honest, I'm not actually sure how you could make such a system work in reality. For a start, I don't see how you can retrospectively enforce such an idea. You have to allow people download the stuff first, before they can contribute. What you're really doing is *asking* people to contribute (like a sort of in-kind shareware sort of thing, where you're contributing material instead of money). This sort of scheme is most definitely not precluded by CC.

Well you can't literally enforce it. You can make it a requirement of the licence, but I have no intention of chasing after every downloader demanding my due. Its there to let people know they are obligated to contribute, and to stop any knockoffs or re-publications, which are allowed under the cc.

Like all systems, if people find your stuff compelling enough to play then they'll want to play it, and as a result they'll generate material.

Very true, but I am confident in this project's ability to draw interest.

I like the ethos, but I doubt the efficacy.

Well you aren't seeing the reasoning behind it, and the goals aspired to, which I think I outlined above there...

Specky

Well you aren't seeing the reasoning behind it, and the goals aspired to, which I think I outlined above there...

No, I do see your reasoning, but I still doubt it's very enforceable (with a small 'e').

You'd like something a little like the Linux project, I guess...but even with that project there really wasn't anything to stop people wandering off with chunks of what had been done and using it in their own way. All that prevented it was that the "core" of people working on the project who "bought-in" to the idea of a collaborative project, and saw the benefits of everyone working together on one project instead of everyone working on their own projects in isolation. That's very much the same idea as the one behind the Game Crafters' Guild. I know at least 5 different people who're all working in isolation on their own games "system" developments, all of whom are hugely frustrated by their general lack of individual progress (because life gets in the way).

Anyway...

Copyright is a slippery thing at the best of times, and particularly in the highly adaptive, highly customisable world of the RPG, where it's almost a requirement that the people playing the games contribute their own element of the material (copyright on play material produced by players and GMs belongs to them, not the person who designed the game, no matter how strong the game's original copyrights happened to be).

My suggestion would be to get the material out there, through whatever channel is the most straightforward. At least then it actually is "out there" and not languishing under the bed, like so many other great pieces of work people have been working on. Like you say, you've put a lot of work into it but you really just want to play and have fun (much the same with my own projects). Once it's released it will have a life of its own regardless of what you try to do with the copyrighting (how many adapted versions of every game system are there out there being played by groups in isolation? Gazzillions I'd say). It's not like software where you can make it stop working after 30 days if you don't pay the bill.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck. If there's anything I can do to help please let me know, and if there's anything you'd like help with please consider using the Game Crafters' Guild to find collaborators. It's a young site now, but it'll mature rapidly.

Geoff

TabulaRasa22

Specky wrote:

No, I do see your reasoning, but I still doubt it's very enforceable (with a small 'e').

Consider it as more of a "here be dragons" than a "trespassers shall be prosecuted". People can and will download without contributing back, but the licensing will make it very clear that that isn't allowed. I think most people won't mind sharing their ideas with the world in that respect.

Specky wrote:

You'd like something a little like the Linux project, I guess...but even with that project there really wasn't anything to stop people wandering off with chunks of what had been done and using it in their own way. All that prevented it was that the "core" of people working on the project who "bought-in" to the idea of a collaborative project, and saw the benefits of everyone working together on one project instead of everyone working on their own projects in isolation. That's very much the same idea as the one behind the Game Crafters' Guild.

Yes, thats the GPL, or GNU GPL if one was to be pedantic, the General Public Licence, which allows project forking and redistribution, something I would be opposed to myself. And even that has the stable kernel versions released by Linus, the "official" linux. That has been known to have destructive effects on projects also, sometimes forks can split vital team members into different groups, leaving both worse off. The idea I have here is just to keep it all together under one roof. I may even have a feedback section where rejected ideas can be discussed and possibly even entered into the main system if enough people agree it works. I expect there will be a few borderline submissions like that.

Specky wrote:

I know at least 5 different people who're all working in isolation on their own games "system" developments, all of whom are hugely frustrated by their general lack of individual progress (because life gets in the way).

Hence your excellent guild idea, which definetely has enormous potential. The game system I have can be defintively said to be all but complete at this stage however, and I'm satisfied with it. Its just letting people know about it really. If you build it they will come!

Specky wrote:

Copyright is a slippery thing at the best of times, and particularly in the highly adaptive, highly customisable world of the RPG, where it's almost a requirement that the people playing the games contribute their own element of the material (copyright on play material produced by players and GMs belongs to them, not the person who designed the game, no matter how strong the game's original copyrights happened to be).

Copyright from my experience is split into two areas in Ireland, unique works and unique databases. A unique work can be art or whatever, and a unique database would be something like the golden pages. The problems arise when works are based on other works, although there is an established body of law granting certain rights, including that if you alter a unique work, that alteration means the result is yours. As I mentioned, I will consult a professional on the matter...

Specky wrote:

My suggestion would be to get the material out there, through whatever channel is the most straightforward. At least then it actually is "out there" and not languishing under the bed, like so many other great pieces of work people have been working on. Like you say, you've put a lot of work into it but you really just want to play and have fun (much the same with my own projects).

I fortunately own a marketing company, so I was thinking I might give parts of the project to the trainees to see what they can come up with, in terms of getting it out there.

Specky wrote:

Once it's released it will have a life of its own regardless of what you try to do with the copyrighting (how many adapted versions of every game system are there out there being played by groups in isolation? Gazzillions I'd say). It's not like software where you can make it stop working after 30 days if you don't pay the bill.

Yes indeed, and for probably the first time, GMs everywhere will have a chance to have their work recognised by the game designers, large as life, and added to the main body of their game system. Theres no reason for them not to submit their ideas; in fact other people might help them out in their game worlds, adding new cities and maps, NPCs, plot threads, everything.

Actually now that I think of it, I'd have no right to arbitrarily decide what goes well in a submitter's game world, so I'd have to pass approval for additions and adjustments back to them. Interesting. Likewise a blog-style account for any GM that wants one, to chronicle their adventures in a given game world.

Specky wrote:

Whatever you decide to do, good luck. If there's anything I can do to help please let me know, and if there's anything you'd like help with please consider using the Game Crafters' Guild to find collaborators. It's a young site now, but it'll mature rapidly.

Thanks, I sincerely appreciate it. I'd say the main gist of the idea would be to get players and participants, but again, I don't think it would be appropriate to submit the project to the guild. If I can help out in other ways, however, I'll be glad to!

Specky

I'd be cross posting onto *edit*the forum on irishgaming *edit* if I were you. It probably attracts a bigger cross section of the hardcore Irish gaming fraternity than boards (although the boards people are lovely too ).

Yes indeed, and for probably the first time, GMs everywhere will have a chance to have their work recognised by the game designers, large as life, and added to the main body of their game system. Theres no reason for them not to submit their ideas; in fact other people might help them out in their game worlds, adding new cities and maps, NPCs, plot threads, everything.

Well, there have been (and continue to be) other collaborative game projects, all running to various degrees of success.

Actually now that I think of it, I'd have no right to arbitrarily decide what goes well in a submitter's game world, so I'd have to pass approval for additions and adjustments back to them. Interesting. Likewise a blog-style account for any GM that wants one, to chronicle their adventures in a given game world.

Or possibly a wiki style environment with some degree of moderator control from the project thread owner.

Geoff


edit: Rev. At this point in time I'm calling time on the blatant adverts for your site specky. You've given the link, once was enough. Any more and I'm going looking for a bigger stick.

Nevyn

Rev the Irishgaming forum is not one of Specky's many sites at all.
It is seperate and run by a completely different person and yes there are people
who work in the gaming industry both professionally and for the joy if it that read there rather then here.
http://www.irishgaming.com/forum/

Rev Hellfire

Indeed I'm aware of that. But a link to the forum has been posted already, not to mention speckys numerous attempts in my mind to push his own site. I'm all on for people linking to other forums and sites even there own (done purely in my mind to push there google ranks), but once is enough for a link..

Specky

FFS

Now I remember why I don't bother with Boards any more...

You will note that I said "cross post", I did not say "don't post on boards".

I consider that to be being helpful, spreading the word and enhancing the usefulness of the online community.

Boards is FULL of people self promoting for actual, real, worldy gain. My other site (that I will not mention again apart from in my sig, which I believe is my right), is non-commercial, not for profit, voluntary and serves no particular agenda other than the promotion of private individuals who are passionate about their hobby. If you consider that a bad thing...well...I refer the honorable gentleman to my initial comment in this post.

Good day

Rev Hellfire

As I've stated before I've no problem with people providing a link to a site, but I don't expect to see multiple links to the same site. As for personal sites I've no problem with people providing links to their current pet project, but repeatly pushing your site when the opening poster has said they're not interested in pushing it. You may need the google rankings but boards doesn't.

Nevyn

Specky wrote:

Boards is FULL of people self promoting for actual, real, worldy gain.

See that is called pimping and get people site banned for it
if you are seeing this do use the report post function.