If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough...

damo

be warned - its pretty violent...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jz-iGAJhZ6c&search=dog%20brother

TapouT

Dammit I enjoyed that.

dlofnep

I have one of their get together's on a dvd. It's pretty intense. They integrate MMA into their stick fighting. It's fun to watch.

Michael O Leary

I did pretty much the same in Germany a few weeks ago during an Escrima seminar. Helmet, gloves, a stick and go for it. Again it shows the difference in what you think you can do and what you can really do. The thing however is how do you decide on a winner? If it was fencing of old then first blood would win or if using sticks and no helmet then after 1 or 2 strikes to the head the winner will be evident. What we did was if someone gets 3 good strikes to their opponents head or if they disarm their opponent then it is technical KO.

However I am not sure what way the Dog Brothers approach it. All I can see is 2 people wacking each other in the head amongst other places and even though they are getting hit in the head they still keep fighting and then it turns into grappling when in reality the fight would have been over 5 minutes beforehand. However I am aware that I may not be seeing the full picture. Maybe Dave Joyce, Scuttery1 or Balisong can help. As far as I know some of them have met and trained with the Dog Brothers.

Regards all,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Dave Joyce

The format the Dog Brothers take at their Gatherings is you pick an opponent (who may/may not decide to fight you, its pretty easy going), agree whatever format and/or rules (mainly shagg all!) and you fight for either 3 or 5 minutes, no winners, no losers, just remain friends afterwards and leave your ego at home. Now as regards your point about all the head shots, these guys are wearing fencing helmets offer sweet fuvk all protection against impact and are for facial/eye protection. Mick not sure if you guys used WEKAF style helmets (and btw even if you did it takes BALLS to even get in and try this, sincerely well done Mick) but they offer a helluva lot of protection in this type of arena. Further to this, the Sayoc DVD on Stickgrappling was done for a number of different reasons and if you are even vaguely interested in this area it really is worth checking out as their findings (let alone seeing the fights and material on offer) after doing the fights is VERY interesting. They fought each other without any protection whatsoever, no helmets, eye or hand protection and one of the conclusions was that it is EXTREMELY hard to knock someone out let alone stop someone with even head strikes and NO head protection.

As regards grappling, (and the vast majority of the guys on the DVD had little/no experience of grappling), and found if you stay long range its gonna hurt like hell when you are exchanging shots, you're better closing real tight AND knowing how to grapple WITH a stick to stay fairly safe/unscathed and the worst place of all to be was Medio (medium/middle) range as this is where you get really fuvked up.

Finally yet again SOME MMAers continue to amaze me with even damo's title for this thread "if you're gonna be dumb, (wonder how you'ed feel if people said MMA fighters were dumb for getting in the cage) to

Ok, I watched this, and I wondering where is the skill and finesse?

, like where is the skill and finesse in real encounters, to

I can appreciate they train full contact and with minimal rules but it seems to lack certain things...

kinda like getting in the cage and gettin GnP to bits???? This kinda shee-ite reminds me of when the early UFC's were looking to expand the concept of cage fighting and looked at other formats and the Dog Brothers sent in a tape and it was politely declined as a BIT too extreme for the most "real" type of combat going. In fact the DB's enjoyed the letter so much they had it on their site for ages.

Scramble

The fights look a bit chaotic at times, but I'm inclined to agree that this is just because they are going at it with resistance and at full-speed.

In terms of technique, some of the clips are clearer than others, and obviously who is fighting also has a bearing. But you can see roof blocks, strikes to the hands and lead leg (defanging the snake?), all the various striking angles, crashing entries, punyos with the butt of the sticks and so on. That's the standup material, obviously the takedowns, ground etc. is easier to make out. A lot of the fights on the ground seem to end via 'fang choke' using the stick. I wonder how many of their fights go to ground, versus finish standing up, and what the most common finishers are?

Part of the Dog Brothers teaching methodology is that "if you see it taught, you see it fought", meaning that in theory their curiculum should only contain stuff that they have fond viable in their stickfights. If the end result is a system that is simple or commonsensical, then I reckon that's probably an indicator that they're on the right track.

Judging from their website, Krabi Krabong (spelling?) has ended up becoming a major element in what they're doing, which is interesting...

Michael O Leary

Hi Dave,

Yes, they were WEKAF type helmets and of course who was I fighting but Aidan who retained a lot of the stuff from his Rapid Arnis days and battered me. We are only now really getting into the sparring and I want it to be as productive as I can.

Believe it or not I was actually a little bit inspired by something that Matt Thornton has to say on the subject. He said something like if someone is causing you problems when sparring and if you could beat them by using superior strength/technique then it would be disadvantagous for you to do so and you are better off looking at yourself and finding out why you are being caught out with the basic stuff. And believe it or not I also found something which I felt to very true on the website for SBG Ireland namely that what you get out of your training will depend on how reflective you are about your training. (See boys, I agree with you sometimes. )

So when I am sparring I feel that I am only as good as I weakest technique/worst habit. (And I remember a seminar you gave in 1996 where you talked honastly about your bad Escrima habits)

Thanks for the info on how the Dog Brothers approach sparring. I did not know the fencing masks were really for eye protection only. Regarding the percieved skill level by onlookers, if you put two Escrimadors together it can be hard to see the skill but put a skilled Escrimador against a novice with a stick and the skill becomes a lot more tangible. John Kavanagh said the same about BJJ. Look at two equally matched BJJ players locked on the ground for half and hour and it looks boring with no skill involved however this changes when you put an expert against a beginner.

Regards all,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

JayRoc

I think a simple response to this is that any style, even at a high level (with the possible exception of boxing, I'll leave ye to argue why, ye're good enough at that) will probably look at best sloppy, at worst, unintelligible, to the proverbial "untrained eye". Is it combat sports, or wha'?
Who cares how it looks to the uninitiated?

damo

Finally yet again SOME MMAers continue to amaze me with even damo's title for this thread "if you're gonna be dumb, (wonder how you'ed feel if people said MMA fighters were dumb for getting in the cage)

I also said you better be tough - thats a compliment! I apologize if it caused offence though, i dont think the people in the video are dumb, they are crazy though. Fair play to them, theyre doing something i would never have the balls to do so they have my respect.

Vegeta

Michael O Leary wrote:

Thanks for the info on how the Dog Brothers approach sparring. I did not know the fencing masks were really for eye protection only. Regarding the percieved skill level by onlookers, if you put two Escrimadors together it can be hard to see the skill but put a skilled Escrimador against a novice with a stick and the skill becomes a lot more tangible. John Kavanagh said the same about BJJ. Look at two equally matched BJJ players locked on the ground for half and hour and it looks boring with no skill involved however this changes when you put an expert against a beginner.

Spot on there, i think as with most combat sports two equal opponents can luck very messy

Those guys are hard as nails to be fair to em, i particularly love when they get caught with kicks and the guys knee cap being split is just vicious.

Why would they do sports like that where medical insurance costs a fortune in america

Dragan

Dave Joyce wrote:

Finally yet again SOME MMAers continue to amaze me with even damo's title for this thread "if you're gonna be dumb, (wonder how you'ed feel if people said MMA fighters were dumb for getting in the cage) to

I think he was just making a play on an old county and western song dude!!

Vegeta

Elytron wrote:

do the people in jackass have your respect?

c'mon he means in respect to martial arts/combat sports

damo

do the people in jackass have your respect?

Let me see now...a group of guys who have a cult following, who made tons of money having a good time, some of them have become multi millionaire celebrities, they get all the hot chicks.....yes the people in jackass have my respect.

Dave Joyce

Some interesting comments/replies guys. Btw, just for the record, I haven't trained with Marc Denny or any of the DB's but Scuttery1 and Shane have. I do take an interest in their stuff though and hope to fight in one of the European Gatherings at some stage:D

John Kavanagh said the same about BJJ. Look at two equally matched BJJ players locked on the ground for half and hour and it looks boring with no skill involved however this changes when you put an expert against a beginner.

I would agree, but although I haven't watched the clip (thats the problem with living in the sticks, no friggin broadband), but think I've seen it before. Is this the one where a guy gets his patella broken in two? In fairness, I don't think this is one of the better clips of the DB's and I've seen a lot better ones.

Judging from their website, Krabi Krabong (spelling?) has ended up becoming a major element in what they're doing, which is interesting...

Apparently, most of the DB's were fairly good grapplers except for Salty Dog (Arlan Sanford), who decided to go to Buddai Swan Institute and study KK in order to avoid been taken down. He's now the Chuck Liddell of stickfighting:D

I apologize if it caused offence though, i dont think the people in the video are dumb, they are crazy though.

Although I have some issues with the DB's, I also have the ultimate of respect for them (as I do for a lot of MMA fighters, especially the guys from the early UFC's) because they are innovators and started something that no else was doing/had the balls to do.

Why would they do sports like that where medical insurance costs a fortune in america

Most of these guys are professionals (attorneys, physicans etc) and agree that theres no litigation involved. Have to say I like their motto, "Higher consciousness through harder contact"

ianmc38

I think we're unevolving into neanderthalism. Why don' we play bang our heads off the wall? See who can take the most whacks.

Dragan

ianmc38 wrote:

Why don' we play bang our heads off the wall? See who can take the most whacks.

Because as humans were more likely to bang someone elses head off a wall and see what happens.:eek:

ianmc38

Dragan wrote:

Because as humans were more likely to bang someone elses head off a wall and see what happens.:eek:

And we all know how much fun that can be.... :rolleyes: