Why did Mary say this when she appeared at Fatima

Asiaprod

Mary at Fatima instructed people to pray to her as opposed to God through Christ.

This statement has alway puzzled me. Can anyone explain why this was said. It would seem to go against the common belief of praying to God or Jesus Christ.

Dirk Gently

Maybe gods e-mail is getting backed up and Mary is taking some of the heat off him.

It could be the start of a women’s liberation movement in heaven, sisters doing it for themselves.

Why do you need it explained anyway, the beauty of religion is that it can't be rationalised and people don't ask questions. Just blindly believe.

Down with asking questions!

Asiaprod

clown bag wrote:

Why do you need it explained anyway, the beauty of religion is that it can't be rationalised and people don't ask questions. Just blindly believe.

Because its a serious question and I for one would like to hear an answer.

smidgy

Are you sure your your statement is 100% correct.

This is an issue that confuses me also when looking at private revelations. In my belief, in authentic private revelation Mary always asks us to pray through her as she is a mediator between the world and God. Even with respect to the Rosary the emphasis is always on the joyful, glorious and sorrowful mysteries of Christs life. The first part of the Ave Maria (Hail Mary) is only a repetition of the angels words as uttered in the bible. In the second part we ask Mary to pray for us as she (within the catholic church ) is recognised as having won special favour with the father. I have read that prayers to Mary become greater because she embellishes them with her grace before presenting them to Jesus and the Father. Mary never wants us to pray to her as a God. As you know, prayer is the communication between us and God but who says it can get a little help along the way.

Asiaprod

smidgy wrote:

Are you sure your your statement is 100% correct.

No I am not, that is why I asked the question. My understanding was the same as what you have said so I was quite surprised to see so many references on the internet quoting what I had posted. Thanks for your reply.

BrianCalgary

One of the ways to test a prophet is by comparing their statements to God's word. If their statements agree and if the prophecy comes true then they are a prophet of God.

If the statements do not match God's or the prophecy does not come true then the prophet or vision can not be of God.

My understanding of Fatima is that the vision that was reported to be Mary desired that prayer should go through her to her son. This does not fit criteria one which is fitting into God's word. ie, 'I am the way the truth and the life, the ONLY way to the Father is through me'. Now a visoin comes along claims something different, and a whole load of people start praying to Mary and taking the focus off Jesus. Mary is not omnipresent, she can not hear any of anyone's prayers.

The visions at Fatima would boil down to one of Satan's greatest deceptions of all time.

Asiaprod

BrianCalgary wrote:

Mary is not omnipresent, she can not hear any of anyone's prayers.

Thanks for the clarification BC

hairyheretic

I may be a bit fuzzy on this one, but weren't there supposed to have been 3 prophecies given to the 3 kids that saw her, and 2 of them have (alledgely) come true?

Or am I getting my relgious visions mixed up?

BrianCalgary

I have to admit hairy, that I don't know. Over 20 years ago I read up on Fatima as I was joining the RC church and was trying to get a grasp of Marian Theology.

Maybe I should revisit the issue.

BrianCalgary

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world”.

got this from: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

A few statements not matching God's word:

To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.


To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart,


The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world”.

Three statements telling people to devot themselves to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, for the rescue of Russia, which was a hot point at the time. These do not match God's word. It will take me a while to respond to what Satan's role would be in all this. But simply it is to take the focus of Christ.

smidgy

I ask...
what freedom does God give to Satan? Is it a greater freedom than that which he gives to Mary? If so then why?

Also Fatima does not stand alone. Many of the saints in the history of the Catholic church have communicated with Mary and many of these same people have performed miracles in the name of Jesus (eg Padre Pio). Do these acts not substantiate their claims that Mary is true to what she says. Why would people find favour with God by worshipping through a false vision?

We must look at the fruits of fatima and Mary to determine whether she is for or against god because we should' know them by their fruits'. Fatima like many revelations of Mary has brought countless peoples to Jesus and the Father. No half brained Catholic would ever think that Mary is god.

BrianCalgary

smidgy wrote:

I ask...
what freedom does God give to Satan? Is it a greater freedom than that which he gives to Mary? If so then why?.

Mary is human, Satan is a demon, former angel and former resident of Heaven. Revelation has Satan being cast out of Heaven and coming to Earth. He does everything he can to draw humans away from relationship with Christ.

smidgy wrote:

Also Fatima does not stand alone. Many of the saints in the history of the Catholic church have communicated with Mary and many of these same people have performed miracles in the name of Jesus (eg Padre Pio). Do these acts not substantiate their claims that Mary is true to what she says. Why would people find favour with God by worshipping through a false vision?

They don't find favour with God, that is not the goal of Christianity, doing works to find God's favour,. Christianity is about developing a realtionship with God through Christ and carrying out His will. In every denomination there are those who will find themselves very surprised on judgement day. Does that mean if I am an atheist yet still find it a part of my responsibility as a human being to go our and work with the homeless get to heaven because of my fruit? Not at all, it is wonderful what the person does, but without the acknowlegement of Christ as saviour, the bible says they are done.

smidgy wrote:

We must look at the fruits of fatima and Mary to determine whether she is for or against god because we should' know them by their fruits'. Fatima like many revelations of Mary has brought countless peoples to Jesus and the Father. No half brained Catholic would ever think that Mary is god.

As stated above, it is not the fruits that are important. Many people who are non-believers do great things, but it is not of God. You can go out and do many things in the name of Mary and produce fruit, but unless you have that relationship with Christ you are lost.

If God has used Fatima to bring people to Christ, I'm not surprised as God does use Satan's deceptions to lead people to Himself. I see how many people are searching as a result of the Davinci Code controversy or ho wmany people started to look for God after 9/11.

On your last sentence their are those within th eCatholic Church that would have Mary as co-redemptrix with Christ.

See here: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

bmoferrall

BrianCalgary wrote:

“You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart. If what I say to you is done, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. The war is going to end: but if people do not cease offending God, a worse one will break out during the Pontificate of Pius XI. When you see a night illumined by an unknown light, know that this is the great sign given you by God that he is about to punish the world for its crimes, by means of war, famine, and persecutions of the Church and of the Holy Father. To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart, and the Communion of reparation on the First Saturdays. If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted, and there will be peace; if not, she will spread her errors throughout the world, causing wars and persecutions of the Church. The good will be martyred; the Holy Father will have much to suffer; various nations will be annihilated. In the end, my Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world”.

got this from: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

A few statements not matching God's word:

To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my Immaculate Heart.


To prevent this, I shall come to ask for the consecration of Russia to my Immaculate Heart,


The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to me, and she shall be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world”.

Three statements telling people to devot themselves to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, for the rescue of Russia, which was a hot point at the time. These do not match God's word. It will take me a while to respond to what Satan's role would be in all this. But simply it is to take the focus of Christ.

Coincidentally, it seems God, via Mary, is exclusively interested in the Catholic church these days; or maybe responsbility for souls in the Catholic church has been delegated to his mum? Whose looking after the rest of us?
It would be a kindness to call this offensive and patronising nonsense.

Matthew24 wrote:

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

Asiaprod

hairyheretic wrote:

I may be a bit fuzzy on this one, but weren't there supposed to have been 3 prophecies given to the 3 kids that saw her, and 2 of them have (alledgely) come true?

Or am I getting my relgious visions mixed up?

Actually, the 3 rd one is on the vatican web site and it forsaw the attempt on the popes life.

<found it>

Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: ‘Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: ‘something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White ‘we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.

MeditationMom

Isn't this basically a discussion about "many gods" and their relevant importance, status and meaning?

Mary, Satan, Mary of Fatima, other Marys of Other Places, Jesus, Baby Jesus, Christ, Angles, fallen and otherwise, and an endless crowd of Saints, too, to pray to.

Aren't we all brothers and sisters and can't we all commune with God directly, if you will, without fears of needing introductions and someone to speak for us. God knows all about us at all times and will not be swayed by a "favorable" introduction by whichever Mary may be available at the time.

Without denying the importance of guides, teachers, inspired lives of many before us, and even by trying to live by their example and staying humble, don't we need to remind ourselves to hold this notion of "One God", and our direct relatioinship with God, in our hearts?

Do we need to go through Jesus, and through Jesus only, or with, and like Jesus? He has shown us the way, but so has Buddha and many others.

I saw a documentary about Our Lady of Fatima a while back and remember that the late Pope was particularly fond of her, prayed to her, had several symbols relating to her on his clothig etc. They also mentioned the third message that did foretell the shooting. One of the children who had the vision was a very humble nun and never told of the last prediction before her death- am I remembering this right? The whole documentary left me with a feeling of mystery and wonder which was nice. If she said what you mention above, Asiaprod, that indeed is confusing, but calling it Satan's work, Brian, is even more confusing. One God, One God, One God!!!

MeditationMom

Isn't this basically a discussion about "many gods" and their relevant importance, status and meaning? Mary, Satan, Mary of Fatima, other Marys of Other Places, Jesus, Baby Jesus, Christ, Angles, fallen and otherwise, and an endless crowd of Saints, too, to pray to. Aren't we all brothers and sisters and can't we all commune with God directly, if you will, without fears of needing introductions and someone to speak for us. God knows all about us at all times and will not be swayed by a "favorable" introduction by whichever Mary may be available at the time.
Without denying the importance of guides, teachers, inspired lives of many before us, and even by trying to live by their example and staying humble, don't we need to remind ourselves to hold this notion of "One God", and our direct relatioinship with God, in our hearts?
Do we need to go through Jesus, and through Jesus only, or with, and like Jesus? He has shown us the way, as has Buddha and many others.

BrianCalgary

MeditationMom wrote:

Do we need to go through Jesus, and through Jesus only, or with, and like Jesus? He has shown us the way, but so has Buddha and many others.!!!

Yes, we need to go through only Jesus. He says it in John 14:6
'Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'

MeditationMom wrote:

If she said what you mention above, Asiaprod, that indeed is confusing, but calling it Satan's work, Brian, is even more confusing. One God, One God, One God!!!

There is indeed one God. He is three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Satan hates God and will do whatever he can to draw people away from a relationship with God. Sort of reminds me of High School where the best friend of the girl I liked did not like me and did whatever she could to come between a potential relationship between myself and the girl of my affections.

If Satan can produce a vision that will draw people away from God, he will do it. By seeing the quote above, the vision is definitely taking people's focus away from Christ and putting it on Mary.

smidgy

Sorry for the delay in writing this response, I know this board has been up for a while..

I must disagree with BrianCalgary specifically for the following two reasons,

Firstly I find it highly unlikely that Jesus/God would disrespect his own mother so much as to let her image become a mask for Satan. Does this not stand against everything he stands for, virtue respect, honour, love?

Secondly the testimony of the saints is valid. If you look at what they stand for then their testimony is valid for they are people to whom God has revealed both himself and his ways in a truly special way.

If God wants to send Mary as his advocate then he may do so for he is not restricted in any way. Also Mary can do everything that God enables her to do.

They don't find favour with God, that is not the goal of Christianity, doing works to find God's favour

Because of the people they are God reveals himself to them in different ways, it does not matter whether it is the goal of Christianity or not.

In every denomination there are those who will find themselves very surprised on judgement day.

Wont we all be surprised on judgement day or do you know exactly whats going to happen?

I do not see the problem with having Mary as co redemptrix with Christ. As far as I know, Co Redemptrix just means 'With the Redeemer', what is wrong with that. Why can she not stand with Christ?

Dades

Isn't this one of the core differences between Roman Catholic and (e.g.) Protestant branches of Christianity? The role of Mary (& Saints) in the Church?

For this reason might I suggest the answer, like all answers, depends on what branch of Christianity you belong to. Perhaps where RCs have taken Fatima to heart, others have not for reasons based in doctrine.

So basically you'll get a different answer depending who you ask.

Interesting titbit:

Under the new papal authority in the seventh century, many more new beliefs were added to the church, such as the unbiblical doctrine of purgatory (593), the required use of Latin in prayer and worship (600), and prayers said to Mary, dead saints and angels (600).

BrianCalgary

smidgy wrote:

I must disagree with BrianCalgary specifically for the following two reasons,

Firstly I find it highly unlikely that Jesus/God would disrespect his own mother so much as to let her image become a mask for Satan. Does this not stand against everything he stands for, virtue respect, honour, love??

There is no disrespect for His mother. Satan has dissed her by appearing as her and deceiving millions of people in the process.

smidgy wrote:

Secondly the testimony of the saints is valid. If you look at what they stand for then their testimony is valid for they are people to whom God has revealed both himself and his ways in a truly special way.?

Absolutely the testimony of the saints is valid. Their accomplishments and work has been astounding.
They continue today through the work af all believers.

smidgy wrote:

If God wants to send Mary as his advocate then he may do so for he is not restricted in any way. Also Mary can do everything that God enables her to do. ?

No problem with this either. God could very well send Mary as an advocate. The question is did He? God has told us to test all spirits against His word. The problem with Fatima is that the vision instructs people to pray to Mary. This is contrary to Jesus saying 'I am the way the truth and the life. the only way to the Father is through me.' hence the message of this vision is contarry to God's word.

smidgy wrote:

Because of the people they are God reveals himself to them in different ways, it does not matter whether it is the goal of Christianity or not.?

smidgy wrote:

Wont we all be surprised on judgement day or do you know exactly whats going to happen??

What I mean by this statement is that there are those who are going to expect entrance into Heaven but will get the response 'I knew you not" from Jesus.

smidgy wrote:

I do not see the problem with having Mary as co redemptrix with Christ. As far as I know, Co Redemptrix just means 'With the Redeemer', what is wrong with that. Why can she not stand with Christ?

With this stand what you are saying is that Christ need not have come if we can be redeemed through someone else. If God had intended mary to be a redeemer He would have seaid so. The Bible clearly states that Jesus is the redeemer (Mt 20:28). By the definition that you give I am a coredeemer as I stand with Christ myself? Sorry but i am going to point you to Jesus.

Fatima does the opposite and points away from Jesus. When it comes to praying to the saints the problem is that only God is omnipresent and can hear all prayers. Mary is not omnipresent she can not hear prayers.

Shellie13

BrianCalgary wrote:

Now a visoin comes along claims something different, and a whole load of people start praying to Mary and taking the focus off Jesus. Mary is not omnipresent, she can not hear any of anyone's prayers.

The visions at Fatima would boil down to one of Satan's greatest deceptions of all time.

hell ye (pardon the pun!)
for as we all know in the history of christianity no change in the way we view god/ spiritual beings has EVER been known...
No doubt when jesus came along 1st he was reguearded with the same type of suspision!

Male catholics mainly (and other christians) i feel are uncomfortable with the notion that prayer to a female being could obtain anything...god forbid that would indicate women were almost equal in the church...shudder!

Rev Hellfire

From my understanding of praying 'to' mary the idea is that son will be more favourable to requests provided by the mother. Jesus must be something of a mammys boy, very Irish.
This is somewhat different then the idolatry spin that Brian wishes to place on the catholic churches followers. You don’t worship Mary (and saints) you ask for their intervention which is different.

smidgy

Brian are you saying that Mary can be prayed through using Gods own words (the acid test comparison as you state) in the Hail Mary but that it is just the content of Marys message in Fatima that you are against because she says to pray to (rather that through) her?

There is no disrespect for His mother. Satan has dissed her by appearing as her and deceiving millions of people in the process.

Satan cannot do anything without God allowing him, so are you saying that God is in on this too? Why would God facilitate satan in carrying out such a devious plan. Surely at this point in history God can see need help from him, not hindrance.

If the testimony of the saints is valid then you cannot pick and choose what you agree with - or do you?

When it comes to praying to the saints the problem is that only God is omnipresent and can hear all prayers.

The criteria for sainthood within the Catholic Church requires a stringent investigation of miracles and witnesses to these miracles as I understand. By your rationale miracles by the saints are not possible since they are limited by the flesh that limits us all. Yet as you accept the testimony of the saints then these people can perform miracles. The explanation must be then that God enabled them to perform these deeds - In the same manner that God can enable anyone to do anything. So it is entirely possible that he can let Mary and the saints listen to prayer.

Lunoma

I don't know much about Christianity but from what I recall, isn't Fatima in Spain where the two women were praying and claimed to have seen the spirit of Jesus' mother, Mary? (or was that Lourdes in France?)

I think the whole praying to Mary in Catholicism is really nice as it shows the power of women too (even if it isn't always portrayed by the Catholic Church). I remember I was staying in a small French village once and there was a small little grotto carved into the side of the mountain. Every evening some women would go there and pray to Mary. It was so nice and calming.

Unfortunately in some parts of the world, women are still looked down upon by men which is unjust. I don't believe G-d is only male, as G-d could also be female or perhaps gender neutral.

Is it true though that there is a spiritual healing power in Lourdes and Fatima, according to some Catholic pilgrims?

Pocari Sweat

I think it is rude that god was meant to have rodgered mary and there was a donkey involved.

I reckon joseph would not have been too happy that his virgin wife got a big belly and tried to convince him that she had not taken other local men up her.

What was he meant to think?

God had it up her, before he did, and that was OK?

BrianCalgary

smidgy wrote:

Brian are you saying that Mary can be prayed through using Gods own words (the acid test comparison as you state) in the Hail Mary but that it is just the content of Marys message in Fatima that you are against because she says to pray to (rather that through) her?.

There is no point in praying to Mary as she can not hear them. Fatima can not be of God because the instruction given takes the focus off Christ. Two issues being spoken of, one is Fatima and the message there, the second is praying to Mary.

smidgy wrote:

Satan cannot do anything without God allowing him, so are you saying that God is in on this too? Why would God facilitate satan in carrying out such a devious plan. Surely at this point in history God can see need help from him, not hindrance. .

One of life's mysteries. That is why the book of Job is in the Bible, to show us how Satan works and how we are to respond.

smidgy wrote:

If the testimony of the saints is valid then you cannot pick and choose what you agree with - or do you?.

If it agrees with God's word then it is valid. If it runs contrary to God's word then I can not accept it.

smidgy wrote:

The criteria for sainthood within the Catholic Church requires a stringent investigation of miracles and witnesses to these miracles as I understand. By your rationale miracles by the saints are not possible since they are limited by the flesh that limits us all. Yet as you accept the testimony of the saints then these people can perform miracles. The explanation must be then that God enabled them to perform these deeds - In the same manner that God can enable anyone to do anything. So it is entirely possible that he can let Mary and the saints listen to prayer.

Miracles are valid. They are done by God through His people. The Biblical definition of a saint is one who believes on Jesus as the Christ and saviour. That makes me a saint and you asaint and excelsior asaint, etc.

Lunoma

Sorry Brian, I can't put it in any nicer way so bear with me......

What is your problem with people praying to Mary? It seems to me that more religions should show that women also play a role in spirituality just as much as men do. Mary was Jesus' mother, if it wasn't for her, he wouldn't have existed in the first place, then there would be no Christianity and many would be pagans or Jews. Also how the hell do you know if Mary can't hear people's prayers? It seems to me that you hold some rotten Protestant attitudes towards Catholic practise. So quit being a fundamentalist!

BrianCalgary

Lets answer them one by one.

Lunoma wrote:

Sorry Brian, I can't put it in any nicer way so bear with me......

What is your problem with people praying to Mary? !

As I have stated before, Jesus says 'Iam the way the truth and the life, the ONLY way to the Father is through me.

Praying to anyone else is worship of someone other than God.

Lunoma wrote:

It seems to me that more religions should show that women also play a role in spirituality just as much as men do. !

Read and study the New Tesatament and you will see the role that women played in the ministry of Jesus. Quite outside the norm for the culture of th etime. The NT teaches that all have gifts to be used in God's kingdom, women included.

Lunoma wrote:

Mary was Jesus' mother, if it wasn't for her, he wouldn't have existed in the first place, then there would be no Christianity and many would be pagans or Jews. !

She was the mother to Jesus' humanity NOT the mother of His total being, since He pre-existed All of us.

Lunoma wrote:

Also how the hell do you know if Mary can't hear people's prayers?!

She is not omni-present.

Lunoma wrote:

It seems to me that you hold some rotten Protestant attitudes towards Catholic practise. !

I do have attitude against any teaching or practice that takes away from the risen Christ. Although your accusation does me good. This past winter in my church I was accused of being a Catholic in disguise wishing to indoctrinate our children into Catholicism. Because I stated that there are actually Christians in the RC church who have found salvation through Him.

Maybe before making such profound accusations get to know people a little better.

Lunoma wrote:

So quit being a fundamentalist!

Let me know what your definition of 'fundamentalist' is and I will let you know whether or not I qualify.

Dades

Lunoma wrote:

Also how the hell do you know if Mary can't hear people's prayers?!

BrianCalgary wrote:

She is not omni-present.

This reminds me of a game of dungeons & dragons.
"Everyone knows the Wizard has more omni-points than the Sorceress..."

To be fair Brian, as mod of the Christianity forum should you be dismissing Roman Catholic doctrine with such vigour? Especially given the location of the board which you mod. There are as many images of Mary on the walls of Irish houses there are Jesus (and nearly as many of Elvis).

You believe your branch of Christianity is right, but so does every member of every other branch. Even if you aren't impartial - shouldn't you at least pretend to be?

Lunoma

Hi Brian,

I'm sorry if I seemed a bit rude. Please accept my humble apologies. If you choose to believe in Jesus and don't regard Mary as being very high, that is your belief but that lies in the depths of faith itself, not fact. Just because you think that Mary in un-omnipresent, that isn't to say that she isn't. Catholicism has been around a lot longer than Protestantism, you know, but religion isn't always right. I suppose that is the wonders of faith, believing in something outside of our realms of existance. I'm also sorry for calling you fundamentalist, that wasn't nice, I'm sorry. You're just an observant Christian and take religion seriously which I respect.

The nicest thing would be if everyone can accept differences in believe without cutting each others heads off for it. If we could all understand each others beliefs and faith, then there would be more tolerance and less problems.

BrianCalgary

Lunoma wrote:

Hi Brian,

I'm sorry if I seemed a bit rude. Please accept my humble apologies. If you choose to believe in Jesus and don't regard Mary as being very high, that is your belief but that lies in the depths of faith itself, not fact. Just because you think that Mary in un-omnipresent, that isn't to say that she isn't. Catholicism has been around a lot longer than Protestantism, you know, but religion isn't always right. I suppose that is the wonders of faith, believing in something outside of our realms of existance. I'm also sorry for calling you fundamentalist, that wasn't nice, I'm sorry. You're just an observant Christian and take religion seriously which I respect.

The nicest thing would be if everyone can accept differences in believe without cutting each others heads off for it. If we could all understand each others beliefs and faith, then there would be more tolerance and less problems.

Apologies fully accepted. My apologies returned.

My dream would be that the entire Christian world would come together and understand that there are what I see as three different categories of belief. the first is conviction: this category would include; drinking, dancing, gambling type things. The second is doctrine; including things like baptism, transubstantiation, etc. The third is dogma: Jesus is Lord, the only way to salvation and is God.

The first two are open for respectful discussion and debate. The third is not.

In my church, which is an evangelical type, I teach High School students. This past winter we looked at church history. We though it a good idea to take the kids to a mass. The Rc service also included baptism's that day. It was a great service, our local parish priest is one of the best. Well, did I ever get it from the fundamentalists in our church. Our pastor was with us completely.

My point is that going to the point of insisting that conviction become dogma is where the trouble lies within Christendom.

Thanks for your input and discussion.

BTW. My wife is irish Catholic. We consider ourselves Christian as our identity doesn't lie with the Rc church nor does it lie with protesting the authority of the Rc church. It lies instead with Christ.

robindch

> My point is that going to the point of insisting that conviction become
> dogma is where the trouble lies within Christendom.

Yes, I completely agree, though I'd go a bit further and say that the notion that conviction can become dogma (or belief turns into fact, as I'd put it) is a problem with all religions, and not just christianity.

> [conviction, doctrine, dogma] The first two are open for respectful discussion and debate. The third is not.

...but this is where I don't understand you. A conviction is a belief that you hold; a doctrine is a belief that somebody else wants you to hold; so where does that leave dogma? I can't see any distinction between how you use the words "doctrine" and "dogma", other than the simple one that you're prepared to discuss one, and perhaps change your view, but you're not prepared to discuss the other because you don't want to change your view.

Can you explain more about this?

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

Yes, I completely agree, though I'd go a bit further and say that the notion that conviction can become dogma (or belief turns into fact, as I'd put it) is a problem with all religions, and not just christianity.?

is this progress?:D

> [conviction, doctrine, dogma] The first two are open for respectful discussion and debate. The third is not.

robindch wrote:

...but this is where I don't understand you. A conviction is a belief that you hold; a doctrine is a belief that somebody else wants you to hold; so where does that leave dogma? I can't see any distinction between how you use the words "doctrine" and "dogma", other than the simple one that you're prepared to discuss one, and perhaps change your view, but you're not prepared to discuss the other because you don't want to change your view.

Can you explain more about this?

Your distinction with conviction and doctrine is correct. The two are inconclusive within the Bible. Conviction no sense in splitting over. Doctrine you can respectively split on as these can sometimes come down to worship style and interpretation of biblical passages. We can hold to differences and still be Christian.

Digma are the points where you have to have agreement on. Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Jesus is a created being. Jesus however is quite clear on the fact that He is God. To take Christ as being anybody but God knocks you ot of the Christianity club. Dogma are the points where there is no discussion.

BTW Age of earth I would classify as a conviction.:)

Dades

Surely though one man's dogma, is another man's doctrine? This whole point assumes one thing: that your view of what is fact in this area is correct. I'm not stating it isn't, only that in reality what is correct is in the eye of the individual believer.

What you have is an interpretion, which you believe to be correct. Others have the same thing.

Lunoma

Very well put The Atheist,

It's like Atheism vs Theism. I could say to you "Our beliefs are equal! Just as you can't prove their isn't a G-d, I can't prove their is one. Therefore, our beliefs lie not in fact but faith". Both beliefs should be equally respected and tolerated.

If somebody chooses to believe that G-d doesn't exist or prays to the Hail Mary or like myself, believes that Jesus was only a man and not G-d, we should learn to accept differences and follow the Golden Rule which exists throughout all religions and humanities: "Treat others as you, yourself, would like to be treated". Following this, you really can't go wrong.

For Christians, remember Jesus says that this is the second most important commandment. The most important one is to believe in G-d. "The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:40)

BrianCalgary

Actually Lunoma the greatest commandment is to LOVE God not believe in Him. Satan knows God exists.
The second says nothing about treating others as you would have them treat you, but to love your neighbour as yourself.
Matthew 22:36-40

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Believing that Jesus is not God is tantamount to believing that 2+2 does not equal 4.:o

mountainyman

When Catholics 'pray to Mary' they ask her to pray for us:

The Litany of the Virgin (edited)
Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
...
Christ, graciously hear us.
God, the Father of Heaven, have mercy on us.
God the Son, Redeemer of the world, have mercy on us.
God the Holy Spirit, have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, One God, have mercy on us.
...

Holy Mary, pray for us.


We entreat God for mercy but ask Mary to pray for us.

In fact there is an internal contradiction in the prayer as we do not need to entreat God's mercy. Salvation is granted to all who desire it. The Catholic church in common with all Christian denominations holds that salvation is a gift freely given by God to all who desire it.

MM

babyvaio

MeditationMom wrote:

Isn't this basically a discussion about "many gods" and their relevant importance, status and meaning?

Mary, Satan, Mary of Fatima, other Marys of Other Places, Jesus, Baby Jesus, Christ, Angles, fallen and otherwise, and an endless crowd of Saints, too, to pray to.

Aren't we all brothers and sisters and can't we all commune with God directly, if you will, without fears of needing introductions and someone to speak for us. God knows all about us at all times and will not be swayed by a "favorable" introduction by whichever Mary may be available at the time.

Without denying the importance of guides, teachers, inspired lives of many before us, and even by trying to live by their example and staying humble, don't we need to remind ourselves to hold this notion of "One God", and our direct relatioinship with God, in our hearts?

Do we need to go through Jesus, and through Jesus only, or with, and like Jesus? He has shown us the way, but so has Buddha and many others.

I saw a documentary about Our Lady of Fatima a while back and remember that the late Pope was particularly fond of her, prayed to her, had several symbols relating to her on his clothig etc. They also mentioned the third message that did foretell the shooting. One of the children who had the vision was a very humble nun and never told of the last prediction before her death- am I remembering this right? The whole documentary left me with a feeling of mystery and wonder which was nice. If she said what you mention above, Asiaprod, that indeed is confusing, but calling it Satan's work, Brian, is even more confusing. One God, One God, One God!!!

I think MediationMom is right on a few points. Why do you keep praying to people? Thru people I mean? That doesn't make sense. Thsoe who are dead are dead dead anyway. They cannot intercede anyway, where does it say that they can?

BTW, somebody quoted Jesus saying he is the only way to the Father, now this doesn't make sense then, 'cos it contradicts to what he (supposedly) said when he taught people the so-called father's prayer. Now I don't see any interceders in that prayer, do you? So where is Jesus in that prayer? He's not there. So either Jesus' words were falsely written down and we have a contradiction in there, or he never said those words (that he is the only way to God).

I think Jesus meant this: if you follow him, do what he does, etc. you obey God the way He is happy, 'cos you are following His Prophet/Messenger, but in no means God is deaf, He hears everything, you don't need any human, saints (they might be saints in human eyes, however their status with God might be completely the opposite, wouldn't you agree?) to pray to God. With praying to somebody else people are doing exactly what satan wants them to do - to pray to the creatures not to the One Who created them, not to their Lord. How heretic is that? Doesn't that deserver God's Anger and Punishment? I guess it does, but some might not agree with me. That's a personal thought BTW.

Now maybe I'm wrong, but wouldn't it mean that is somebody prays to Jesus to pray to God that God basically cannot respond until Jesus says so? That just doesn't make sense.

I think this is one the biggest deceptions of satan, people don't pray to God directly, but to Jesus, son of man.

This is very similar to forgiveness issue - people pray to people (priests) and do not ask God for forgiveness themselves. How further astray can one go?

God Almighty created us, so why don't we pray directly to Him?
Why don't we ask Him directly for the things we need?
Why don't we talk to Him directly when we are in trouble?
Why don't we ask Him directly for help?

Tomorrow a new kid on the block might show up saying that he saw something and this might be interpreted as yes, that's the new way to pray, etc.. God's Law is a comprehensive Law, and there is no change needed in it, do you think that He forgot about something when He revealed His Books? And that He remembered later, so He had to sent somebody 2000 years later for instance to correct His Own Law? I don't think so, because thinking so would most certainly lead to denying His Message and to disbelief.

The question is, how many of God's Law is still untouched, how many things priests and Bible writers changed in their favour? That's yet to be discovered.

PS Satan can change his form and shape, so watch out - not everything we see is what we think we see...

babyvaio

BrianCalgary wrote:

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Believing that Jesus is not God is tantamount to believing that 2+2 does not equal 4.:o

I thought the 1st Commandment was that there is Ony and Only One True God, so obey Him.

And, believing that 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 = 1 is tantamount to a pure mystery, which has never been resolved by anyone nor will ever be resolved by anyone

And it is in a direct contradiction with the 1st Commandment (the one I posted).

aidan24326

Asiaprod wrote:

Mary at Fatima instructed people to pray to her as opposed to God through Christ.

This statement has alway puzzled me. Can anyone explain why this was said. It would seem to go against the common belief of praying to God or Jesus Christ.

Herself and God must have been having a bit of a tiff. I'm sure they sorted it out over a nice bottle of wine down at 'The Wings and Harp'.

BrianCalgary

babyvaio wrote:

I thought the 1st Commandment was that there is Ony and Only One True God, so obey Him.

And, believing that 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 = 1 is tantamount to a pure mystery, which has never been resolved by anyone nor will ever be resolved by anyone

And it is in a direct contradiction with the 1st Commandment (the one I posted).

It isn't in contradiction at all. There is only one God, revealed in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You are right, it is a mystery that we as humans have trouble getting our heads around.

Jesus says that He is God. In Genesis, God does say 'let us...' indicating plurality.

babyvaio

BrianCalgary wrote:

It isn't in contradiction at all. There is only one God, revealed in three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You are right, it is a mystery that we as humans have trouble getting our heads around.

Jesus says that He is God. In Genesis, God does say 'let us...' indicating plurality.

Three personas? OK, read this. It's the Bible BTW.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054968921

It mentiones God and who else? Another "person in God"? No, but it clearly mentiones God and His SERVANT JESUS CHRIST, which means God and His servant Jesus the anointed. That is not three in one, nor one in three. That is:

- one God, the Creator
- one servant, Jesus Christ

Don't get angry with babyvaio, the Bible said it, not me.

Nothing you or anybody else say can justify that biblical statement (to prove his divinity) nothing.

Quote me the verse BTW where Jesus himself "said" in his own words: "I am God, therefore worship me." (exactly as I wrote, OK, I can overlook the comma and the dot).

Oooh, BTW, the Qur'an uses loads of times "We this, We that, etc." meaning God speaking in the 1st person, but that doesn't mean plural, but you know what.

BrianCalgary

babyvaio wrote:

Three personas? OK, read this. It's the Bible BTW.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054968921

It mentiones God and who else? Another "person in God"? No, but it clearly mentiones God and His SERVANT JESUS CHRIST, which means God and His servant Jesus the anointed. That is not three in one, nor one in three. That is:

- one God, the Creator
- one servant, Jesus Christ

Don't get angry with babyvaio, the Bible said it, not me.

Nothing you or anybody else say can justify that biblical statement (to prove his divinity) nothing.

Quote me the verse BTW where Jesus himself "said" in his own words: "I am God, therefore worship me." (exactly as I wrote, OK, I can overlook the comma and the dot).

Oooh, BTW, the Qur'an uses loads of times "We this, We that, etc." meaning God speaking in the 1st person, but that doesn't mean plural, but you know what.

Jesus is called a servant because that is what He did. He served the trinitarian God and mankind by giving shedding His blood for your sin.

Jesus in John 8:58 called Himself I AM, the response of the religious folk was to stone Him for calling Himself God.

John 19:7 The Pharisees again want Him dead for blasphemy because He claimed to be God.

Matthew chapter 26 tells us of the exchange at Jesus trial where He is asked if He is the Christ, the Son of the living God?, Jesus responds by agreeing with them and calling Himself the Son of Man, a direct reference to Isaiah 7:13 and 14.

Jesus communicated to the people of the time in a language that they could understand, who He is. They all understood that Jesus was making a claim that He was God. With authority over Angels, authority to forgive sin, authority to change the Sabbath rules, etc. You don't ask the question, what do I think this means?, you have to ask, what did the writer want to convey. It is obvious that Jesus wanted to convey the message that He was God, He did it so well that He was crucified for it by the academics of that field of academia at the tiem.

The word trinity did not exist until ??? years after Christ, it is never mentioned in the Bible, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You can't even find the word gravity until Newton came up with it, does that mean that gravity is man made and it was made by Newton?

As for the Qu'ran saying 'We'; if anyone says to me 'We did it' my immediate response would be 'who was with you?', we is a plural word.