Which discipline for me

booshman

need some advice,am interested in taking up a martial art and with there being a variety of them i dont really know which to go for. I am in my early 40 reasonably fit, have read a couple of the threads on different styles but still not sure, i would really appreciate any input anyone has i live in the dunlaoghaire area so somewhere in the vicinity would be good. My main goal is to be able to defend myself and get fit
cheers

pma-ire

booshman wrote:

My main goal is to be able to defend myself and get fit
cheers

Try them all!!

Use your reasons for training as a rule and judge any MA class you see or have a go at by this!!

Have fun

yomchi

booshman wrote:

need some advice,am interested in taking up a martial art and with there being a variety of them i dont really know which to go for. I am in my early 40 reasonably fit, have read a couple of the threads on different styles but still not sure, i would really appreciate any input anyone has i live in the dunlaoghaire area so somewhere in the vicinity would be good. My main goal is to be able to defend myself and get fit
cheers

Im biased here! But try Taekwon-Do. Great art for keep ing you fit, plenty of activity including sparring, patterns, stretching and pad work. Good grading syllabus too if you are interested in belts.
Just make sure the instructor offers good realistic self defence work, unfortunately TKD is not top of the list for real self defence or realistic SD. But some instructors like to make sure they're up to scratch...ahem..

Try Mick Whelan in East Coast TKD mickitf@eircom.net

ninjaburr

I know just how you feel.
I am 31 and just starting back to MA.I had a bit of experience with Kantanni Karate but that was about ten years ago.
I suggest you simply get your lacal paper or do a google search for all the ma in your area.You might be surprised at just whats out there!!
I went through 2 tae kwon clubs, 1 kung fu and kick boxing before i found something to suit me!I thinks its important to keep looking cause there is a lot of variety out there. It is important to find an envoirnment you are comfortable with and instructors that you can respect.
Good luck.

Ger Healy

booshman just questions when you say defend myself.
What are you really asking?
(1) Are you asking for the tools to be able to hurt someone else?
(2) Are you asking for the feeling of confidence?

I suspect that what you are really asking is that you can feel happy in yourself.
And I suppose all of us can ask this question of ourselves.
What (REALLY)are our goals when training in ma?
I think when you boil it down we will all come back to the same conclusion "Happiness" how we get there will be differed but the end result will be the same feeling happy about ourselves.
This came from watching a Matt Thourton Seminar in Iceland where his talks about why we train, very cool, I liked it a lot.
And what then?

Michael O Leary

Ger Healy wrote:

booshman just questions when you say defend myself.
What are you really asking?
(1) Are you asking for the tools to be able to hurt someone else?
(2) Are you asking for the feeling of confidence?

I suspect that what you are really asking is that you can feel happy in yourself.
And I suppose all of us can ask this question of ourselves.
What (REALLY)are our goals when training in ma?
I think when you boil it down we will all come back to the same conclusion "Happiness" how we get there will be differed but the end result will be the same feeling happy about ourselves.
This came from watching a Matt Thourton Seminar in Iceland where his talks about why we train, very cool, I liked it a lot.
And what then?

Hi Booshman,

You have actually stumbled onto the major faultline on this forum, namely the debate between sport and self-defence based martial arts. Each side can at times compare the best in what they do with the worst in the other side. I found an example of this at one of Matt Thornton's seminars where one of his arguments put forward (I am paraphrasing now) was that " due to the low risk of being attacked compared to the high risk of getting heart disease, that if you do martial arts for self-defence then you have some type of mental/emotional problem and need to see a shrink". I think this is where Ger is leading.

In my opinion statistically you may have a low chance of being attacked but who wants to be a statistic and the knowledge you have a greater chance of defending yourself after some type of training can improve the quality of your life. Self-defence is a healthy life skill and don't let anyone tell you different.

If on the other hand you are looking to feel happy in yourself then eat HB Icecream. It is scientifically proven to make you happy.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

yomchi

" due to the low risk of being attacked compared to the high risk of getting heart disease, that if you do martial arts for self-defence then you have some type of mental/emotional problem and need to see a shrink

of course its nothing to do with it being marketed as SD for decades has it :rolleyes:

Thats not aimed at you Michael!

dlofnep

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi Booshman,

You have actually stumbled onto the major faultline on this forum, namely the debate between sport and self-defence based martial arts. Each side can at times compare the best in what they do with the worst in the other side. I found an example of this at one of Matt Thornton's seminars where one of his arguments put forward (I am paraphrasing now) was that " due to the low risk of being attacked compared to the high risk of getting heart disease, that if you do martial arts for self-defence then you have some type of mental/emotional problem and need to see a shrink". I think this is where Ger is leading.

In my opinion statistically you may have a low chance of being attacked but who wants to be a statistic and the knowledge you have a greater chance of defending yourself after some type of training can improve the quality of your life. Self-defence is a healthy life skill and don't let anyone tell you different.

If on the other hand you are looking to feel happy in yourself then eat HB Icecream. It is scientifically proven to make you happy.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

I don't think Ger is heading that way at all. It wasn't an argument, more of an addition to the thread. Why do you feel threatened everytime someone posts something related to MMA training? I don't see anyone questioning the TKD post, but when it's MMA - it's jumped on immediately.

As for the first poster - I'd personally go with mixed martial arts. It covers all the ranges needed in self defense, where most martial arts do not. Imagine yourself doing a martial art that focused purely on kicking from a long range.. What would you do if you were closed in on and grabbed.. Would you know what to do? Would you feel confident? What if you fell on the ground - Could you defend yourself? Most martial arts do not cover these areas. MMA does. It's tested in a resistance enviroment, so you'll constantly be able to assess yourself by sparring with all your friends. You'll know your own limits, so you'll be ready if the time ever comes.

Mixed martial arts consists of clinch/striking/ground game. The arts used for these vary from gym to gym, but it's mostly wrestling/muay thai & boxing/brazilian jiu-jitsu or judo. basically what that means is - Striking is anything you learn to be able to strike, IE boxing.. Clinch work is when you're in close and you have the ability to grab the person and take them down or throw them.. Ground work is an intricate art, you'll be amazed by how much you don't know when you take a class.

I'd personally recommend for you to go to a few gyms, any martial art you like. Then go to an MMA gym and see the difference in training methods. It's up to you to decide on which you prefer.

Ger Healy

Mike I think may have got the wrong end of the stick here.
Maybe I didn't get my point across very well.
What I heard from Matt's Q&A at that seminar has nothing to do with sport V self-defence. In actual fact it may have nothing to do with ma but more about what we as individuals want from our life at a much-simplified level
Happiness

As for booshman I'm 38 years old and have done ma for 20 years, mostly traditional and I would recommend the following not in any order
Boxing, BJJ, MT & judo. As the other poster have said take alook around don't stick with the first club you walk into try them all and then decide
Best of luck with your training whatever you do

Pro. F

Booshman
Most sport based MAs will be good for your fitness. Sport MAs are also great fun and you don't necessarily have to compete. They also have the benefit, as dlofnep said, of training with a resisting partner. this doesn't mean that you will be in a violent aggressive situation when you are training. any good club will only put you in sparring, in a particular range, when you are ready. if sparring is overly competitive and aggressive then it's a club to be avoided.
some sport MAs that do well in MMA competitions (ie full contact and rules that aren't based around one style of fighting) are: Judo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Free Style Wrestling, Greco Roman Wrestling, International Boxing and Muay Thai.
For self defence it's important that you cover all the ranges of fighting: weapons; striking; clinch and ground. and also you must study/train in the psychology of fighting, how attacks happen etc. all good SD training places an emphasis on learning how to avoid dangerous situations in the first place and understanding how fights develop. Also familiarity with the effects of confrontation - such as an adrenaline dump - through various training drills is important. lots of good modern SD is a mixture of sports based training methods, situational awareness and a few basic effective techniques.

I hope this helps when you are trying to evaluate clubs.

PS. There are lots of disagreements on this board (what is effective in a real fight, is it healthy to want to be effective in a real fight etc.) so you may get some people telling you that you only need to do sport MA. as Michael said 'Self-defence is a healthy life skill and don't let anyone tell you different.'

Roper

No need to be so touchy Michael, people from all backgrounds had replied regardless of background. Ger was merely making a suggestion to the OP. I also think its a good idea for someone to think about what they want to gain out of training before beginning to train.

I also think you got the wrong end of the stick at the Matt Thornton Seminar. It wasn't "if you train for self defence you need to see a shrink", it was If you are SINCERE about training to defend yourself to survive, then you should deal with some of the things that are statistically more likely to cause your demise. Like say heart disease or not wearing your seatbelt. Surviving a street encounter is down the list unless you live in Basra or similar.

To the original poster:
If you want to try variety under one roof I'd check out Paul Moran in Blackrock who has boxing, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and a few different types of Kung Fu at his centre. www.ymaa.ie
Best of luck in your search, it might take a while but I hope you find something you enjoy.

Cheers,
Barry

Tim_Murphy

To original poster:
Like others have said, try out whatever is available in your area and see what you like. Don't blindly accept what each instructor says, apply a little bit of critical thinking. If two MAs claim to be teach the range of fighting (standup, clinch, or ground) yet the two arts look very different, try to figure out why that is.

Oh, and don't be fooled by the labels sport MA, or self defence MA. Many 'sport' MAs (like boxing, muay thai or judo) would be much more useful to you to defend yourself than some (lots maybe) of the self defence stuff out there. Not that I'm recommending doing one of them for that reason, go find what you enjoy most and do that.

crokester

"I also think you got the wrong end of the stick at the Matt Thornton Seminar. It wasn't "if you train for self defence you need to see a shrink", it was If you are SINCERE about training to defend yourself to survive, then you should deal with some of the things that are statistically more likely to cause your demise. Like say heart disease or not wearing your seatbelt. Surviving a street encounter is down the list unless you live in Basra or similar"

Summed up perfectly! Its like my point Ive made on these forums before. If your really interested in SD you would sprint train before you learn how to use a bar stool seven different ways to knock out your attacker! And you would wear your seat belt, eat healthily, and look left and right before crossing the road long before you even sprint train! Its all about priorities!

Pro. F

crokester wrote:

...Its like my point Ive made on these forums before. If your really interested in SD you would sprint train before you learn how to use a bar stool seven different ways to knock out your attacker! And you would wear your seat belt, eat healthily, and look left and right before crossing the road long before you even sprint train! Its all about priorities!

And like other people have said here before. whats the use in being able to run fast if your freinds/familly are with you?
And who says just because you want to learn effective combat techniques (sometimes referred to as SD) that you aren't also going to live a healthy lifestyle and look both ways before you cross the road etc. etc.?

As for what Matt Thornton said. i wasn't at the seminar that you guys are talking about but i have read an article by him where he said (as far as i can remember) that the SD mindset is unsound. i'm looking for the article now.

EDIT: *some time later* i've just realised that i've been confusing things. ye theres an article where he's ragging on the SDers mental health http://www.straightblastgym.com/awareness_vs.htm (i think theres more articles about) and somewhere else i read him say that, statistically, you're better off looking after yourself than learning how to fight to defend yourself. but i haven't read him saying the two together ie your statistically better off looking after yourself so if you do SD you must be nuts.

Millionaire

As some 34, and despite many years in MA, I feel the body slowing up a bit!

Get in somewhere where you enjoy with a good instructor, regardless of style.

At 40 ish....unless you really want hard training, you may not want to join...say a kickboxing club , where there is full on heavy sparring, and your going to work with a black eye then next day. (I spent yeas in clubs like that when younger)

Or if the old legs are on the short side and your not too flexible, some Tae Kwon Do clubs may not be the answer, as a high percentage of your time willbe doing kicks, and high ones at that. (did TKD for a few years too)

I myself often think, when I get into my 40s, I would like to learn Kung Fu!

Matt Thornton from what I read seems to be excellent martial arts teacher, and his branch in Ireland is probably The top MMA and BJJ school in Ireland.

However I would not even bother reading this articles(I 've read most of them on his web site a few times, especially about self defence), and I find them to be complete off the wall, onesided, abstract, and lacking any specific point.

Millionaire

Pro. F wrote:

And like other people have said here before. whats the use in being able to run fast if your freinds/familly are with you?
And who says just because you want to learn effective combat techniques (sometimes referred to as SD) that you aren't also going to live a healthy lifestyle and look both ways before you cross the road etc. etc.?

As for what Matt Thornton said. i wasn't at the seminar that you guys are talking about but i have read an article by him where he said (as far as i can remember) that the SD mindset is unsound. i'm looking for the article now.

EDIT: *some time later* i've just realised that i've been confusing things. ye theres an article where he's ragging on the SDers mental health http://www.straightblastgym.com/awareness_vs.htm (i think theres more articles about) and somewhere else i read him say that, statistically, you're better off looking after yourself than learning how to fight to defend yourself. but i haven't read him saying the two together ie your statistically better off looking after yourself so if you do SD you must be nuts.

This is what I mean too, when I criticize his articles.

I do RBSD...and I am in perfect mental health. Anyway he has not met me, so how can he so I am of unhealth mindset because I like SD.

I also read in another of his articles, where he tells some story (antedocial evidence to use on of his own expressions) , that two guys (i think a father and son) got into a fight, one hit the other in the throat with a golf club, it did not take a flinch out of him getting hit, and he destroyed the other guy. something like that. Thornton was trying to say that in SD there is no point in trying to learn a throat strike! :rolleyes: Thats like saying smoking cigs is not bad for your health because " my great granny up in donegal smoked 100 Woodbines a day and she lived in great health to be 98!). Ok Matt get down on your knees and let me strike you full whack in the throat with a golf club and lets see how ya get on!!

like come one... he says self defence people are unhealthy, for teaching eyes, throat , balls stuff...the very stuff that will work for a smaller female against say a big rapist. yet he advocates a "sport" where...for example one clip I seen on here recently some BJJ guy in denmark snaps some kid with 4 months training arm so bad, the kid is out of work for months. Or another thread last week, where Frank Shamrock broke somes knee on purpose with a heel hook. These sort of break may never heal correct. Now is that a healthy fun pass time???

Anyway soom Food for thought!

crokester

Pro F you ask what if your friends and family are with you when you get attacked? Well what if you get stuck in a donkey stampede in the morning!? Wouldnt you find it a bit funny if I trained for donkey stampedes? What if? What if? What if? No ones denying that it happens, but SD practitioners often give it hours of training every week when the liklyhood of it happening is practicly zero if your careful.

The point about biting, eye gouges and groin shots are interesting. Ill give the usual MMA response; UFC 1-6! A groin shot wont finish an attacker like a triangle choke will. And, like Matt Thornten repeats time and time again, if royce gracie wanted too he could lie in side control and chew the nipples oiff an attacker till his next birthday but hed prob be more concerned with snaping an arm! My point is that theres a delivery system used to administer an effective bite or eye gouge, the act of biting itself needs no training, we practice it three times a day at meals, but being able to hold an oppoment where you want and bite takes positional control and that involves the practice of wrestling, bjj etc. And again, if you have the positional control, biting wont be high on your list. And I agree that MMA can also attract some real thugs!

Roper

I also read in another of his articles, where he tells some story (antedocial evidence to use on of his own expressions) , that two guys (i think a father and son) got into a fight, one hit the other in the throat with a golf club, it did not take a flinch out of him getting hit, and he destroyed the other guy. something like that. Thornton was trying to say that in SD there is no point in trying to learn a throat strike!

I think you missed the point of that article, or else you read it with some brown tinted spectacles on. It wasn't "there's no point in learning a throat strike". The point was that the human body can take an awful lot of punishment, so don't believe everything you hear about "lethal" strikes etc. And also that the best way (in his opinion) of ending a fight (particularly in law enforcement) isn't necessarily by striking, but by restraining. That people on substances/adrenaline don't always react to trauma the way you think they should.

I've only responded twice today because I felt that people had some misconceptions. What you're doing is a) Off topic, and b) unlikely to make anyone who's new to the martial arts want to train. I know the irony inherint in my own contribution here so don't bother pointing it out. This is why I post here a lot less these days.

goo

I've never been interested in self defence but I'd agree that mma is a good idea because, I think it was dlofnep that said it first, you get experience with being in kicking distance, being up really close and being on the floor.

Krav Maga was made by the Israelis to deal with armed opponents, wasn't it? A lot of places do that as like a fixed course instead of an ongoing discipline or whatever so that might be a good idea too.

Like someone said I'm sure you're just looking for something with a practical end, and you'll get that from everything that's been posted.

Sorry the thread got so out of shape.

pma-ire

I like Roper have lost a bit of respect for the board due to the way posts have went over the last few months or so!

But as being someone that trains and teaches with SD in mind first. I'll just say this.

Be it myself or the people that come to train with me, our first goal is to build up some simple responces to Habitual Acts Of Violence (HAOV). These would be the most used attacks on the person like...

1. Punch/Slap to the head.

2. Kick to the groin.

3. Head-butt.

etc..etc..

and the many ways they are introduced as attacks.

While building up individual responces to these we have to build up basic skills in all ranges encountered. We have to stretch and build up muscle condition to support faster and stronger reactions.

So on the way to learning to defend ourselves a health benefit may be gained!

While we can also take part in the sporting aspect of the MA's as a way to push ourselves and learnt skills in as safe an environment as possible.

I am part of a group that works mainly on SD and one of the clubs in the UK just had 4 of it's students take part in a MMA comps and take 3 first places.

Well rounded MA'ists need to experience training with as many people and points of view as possible. Closed doors and closed minds stunt the learning curve. It's on all sides of the MA world and is why we have these terms MMA, TMA, RBSD and whatever else is out there.

Still no reason why individuals can't transend this mind set which can be proprogated by heads or leaders of groups for there own self promotion reasons.

Michael O Leary

Hi Guys,

Sorry for the late responce. I was invited to a family dinner with gratin potatoes, honey roasted carrots and some kind of chicken with some kind of cheese mixed with basil in between. Lovely but wasted on a barbarian like me.

Anyway back to topic. Booshman has probley had a look at all of our posts (including mine) and said, "what a bunch of nutters" and has gone to take up basketball instead. :eek:

However just to clarify some of my points which are constantly in a state of evolution/regression. The reason why I did not pick holes in the suggestion that Booshman take up Tae-qwon-do is that Booshman asked about fitness and self-defence and Jon who advocated Tae-qwon-do referred to how TQD could help Booshman with fitness and self-defence. Fair enough.

I personally agree that MMA can offer many benefits with regard to self-defence and agree believe it or not with most of what delofnep said with regard to these self defence benefits. The only reason why I took issue with Ger's post is that he did not address Ger's question regarding self-defence and fitness and instead focused on why someone wants to learn how to defend themselves in the first place. This is like a muslim stopping you on the street and asking you where is the nearest mosque and saying to him/her instead, "Why are you looking for a mosque, you want to be a christian". Maybe thats what happened to the guys in St. Patrick's Cathedral.

Booshman. Here is my suggestion! Everyone who has contributed to this thread cares passionatly about martial arts and I am sure is a good teacher. Find the one living closest to you and give them a go but if they show you something which you feel is incompatable with defending yourself on the street and when you query them about it if they start talking about happyiness and question why you want to learn how to defend yourself then drop them.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Ice cream makes you happy. End of story!

Millionaire

There no point in trying to over complicate SD...

for people with limited time to dedecate to training, or perhaps they have not the interest or fitness level to go the combat athlete route...

The fastest and easiest "gross motor" skills to remember , learn and execute is slaps to groin head, plam shot, needs, elbows etc...similar to what PMA says above...

As more me in my quest for Martital Arts enlightenment after 21 years in MA...
mixed with bad knees that have seen better days, and probably have only a few more years kicking left in them...

I am like the Trad Karate Japanese Black belt, in that my black belt is old and frayed and torn so much, it has become a white belt again... (Trad Karate people will know what I mean)

These days my time is master my right cross, my left hook, and some thai knees and elbows, and with that I in my own experiences and beliefs, I am 95% there as far as SD goes.

That will do me rightly! and it will work!

I think my MA rebirth as a future student of some form of Tai Chi, and traditional Kung Fu, may be nearer that I would like to think!

Got Thai training in about an hour, and my knee joint is aching at the thought!

booshman

thanks for all the suggestions, probably could have explained myself a little clearer,when i said defend myself and fitness it wasnt necessarily in that order,i have always wanted to take up a martial art but was occupied with other sports/hobbies.
i gather from the posts and some of the threads i have read that some of you are instructors,you are all obviously passionette about your sport which is good to hear cause it means you care about what you are doing which to me is important
anyway i have something to go on now and again thanks to everyone
booshman

pma-ire

booshman wrote:

thanks for all the suggestions, probably could have explained myself a little clearer,when i said defend myself and fitness it wasnt necessarily in that order,i have always wanted to take up a martial art but was occupied with other sports/hobbies.
i gather from the posts and some of the threads i have read that some of you are instructors,you are all obviously passionette about your sport which is good to hear cause it means you care about what you are doing which to me is important
anyway i have something to go on now and again thanks to everyone
booshman

let us know how you get on man!

and good luck!!

Ger Healy

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi Guys,
The only reason why I took issue with Ger's post is that he did not address Ger's question regarding self-defence and fitness and instead focused on why someone wants to learn how to defend themselves in the first place. This is like a muslim stopping you on the street and asking you where is the nearest mosque and saying to him/her instead, "Why are you looking for a mosque, you want to be a christian". Maybe thats what happened to the guys in St. Patrick's Cathedral.

Booshman. Here is my suggestion! Everyone who has contributed to this thread cares passionatly about martial arts and I am sure is a good teacher. Find the one living closest to you and give them a go but if they show you something which you feel is incompatable with defending yourself on the street and when you query them about it if they start talking about happyiness and question why you want to learn how to defend yourself then drop them.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Ice cream makes you happy. End of story!

Mike am I hearing you right, "Ice cream makes you happy."
Ice cream would make you happy in the short term but the side effect is that you will become fat and unhealthy which may lead to a heart attack and death there for making you and your family sad.
Mike don't be so short sighted think of others before you make such ridiculous claim's

As for some of the rest of your post I take it in the same vain as "Ice cream makes you happy." :eek:

Total rubbish

IMHO a lot of SD people are vultures feeding of the fears of people need to feel safe.

Look be honest how many people here who have trained in MA and who are not involved in security i.e. Door work Garda, Military. Have needed to defend them selves?
I would say very few.
I'm not saying that there isn't a need for such training but when you see some ma and this is all that they push then for me this is not a healthy way of thinking or living

Millionaire

Ger Healy wrote:

IMHO a lot of SD people are vultures feeding of the fears of people need to feel safe.

Look be honest how many people here who have trained in MA and who are not involved in security i.e. Door work Garda, Military. Have needed to defend them selves?
I would say very few.

Your probably right...very few.

However, I would be more concerned for those in the "very few" , who
despite MA training (maybe years of it), were unable to successful defend
themselves, or their training did not work, and they got beaten badly.

So for SD people, I would say the majority of people who are really into SD, train because that is the aspect that interest them the most...take for example the typical poster on a Geoff Thompson forum as an example. Most would be MA people , with experience in various styles, who are interested in self protection.

So for the "Vultures"...yes... thats the fast food SD, lets run
a weekend course, get a load of corporate types on it, charge
big money, show them a few tricks, and make a fortune of cash.

Michael O Leary

Ger Healy wrote:

Mike am I hearing you right, "Ice cream makes you happy."
Ice cream would make you happy in the short term but the side effect is that you will become fat and unhealthy which may lead to a heart attack and death there for making you and your family sad.
Mike don't be so short sighted think of others before you make such ridiculous claim's

As for some of the rest of your post I take it in the same vain as "Ice cream makes you happy." :eek:

Total rubbish

IMHO a lot of SD people are vultures feeding of the fears of people need to feel safe.

Look be honest how many people here who have trained in MA and who are not involved in security i.e. Door work Garda, Military. Have needed to defend them selves?
I would say very few.
I'm not saying that there isn't a need for such training but when you see some ma and this is all that they push then for me this is not a healthy way of thinking or living

Hi Ger,

The whole Ice cream thing is meant to be taken with a large pinch of salt. Namely if someone asks about self-defence and someone else starts talking about happiness then to get us back on track I referred to the current advertisement campaign by HB.

I had a look at your website and what you are offering sounds great. You have only opened this month? Congratulations! I hope it is a big success for you.

Like I said, Booshman asked about self-defence and Jon referred to how TQD could help with SD. Dlofnep did the same with MMA. I feel that you could have done the same with MMA but instead you started quoting Matt Thornton on subjective concepts as "Happiness".

I was at the seminar and I know what he said. While he initially said that you are better off looking after your health before thinking about SD he then moved on from that and directly said that if you want to do SD then you have some type of problem and need to see someone. He said the same thing that you do, namely that a lot of SD instructors are vultures and prey on people's fears. Maybe, but a lot of SD instructors don't do this. And it could be argued that a lot of MMA instructors are guilty of certain unhealthy vices. There are bad sides in both camps but comparing the best in what you do with the worst in what someone else does only serves propaganda and does not answer Booshman's question.

A few months ago a new poster like Booshman asked a similar question about SD and the MMA guys having read his post through the Matt Thornton perception lense decided that he was nuts, insecure and unbalanced. He left the boards in disgust.

Anyway that is where I am coming from.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Millionaire

From what I read, I am beginning to wonder does
Matt Thornton wear Jesus sandals, and have flowers in his hair???? :-)

Yo Bro Peace, love you toooooo duuuddddeeeee, gimme a toke bro!

(woodstock plays in the baclground) LOL!!! ; -)

Damo W

Millionaire wrote:

I am like the Trad Karate Japanese Black belt, in that my black belt is old and frayed and torn so much, it has become a white belt again... (Trad Karate people will know what I mean)

pma-ire

During the year due to the fact that people keep throwing out the "your more likley to suffer heart related malfunction than encounter a personal physical attack". I went and logged on to the CSO webite and the Garda site and picked a year that I could take reports from both that could be matched up.

I think it was 2002?? (As I seem to have lost the document?? :mad: )

Looking at the amount of registered heart related deaths to registered attacks on the person. Heart problems did win out by about about 10,000 reported cases in 2002.

But how many attacks on the person went unreported? As to unreported heart attacks?? I think quite a few as when something medical happens to you, you will go to seek medical help. This does not happen with all physical attacks!!

I also noticed that the Garda report showed a rise in reported physical viloence over the next year!!

So instead of saying "you are MORE likely to have a heart attack that be attacked on the street!" We should say that "you are AS likely to have a heart attack than be attacked on the street!"

So training hard and building up your fitness levels while training with self-defence in mind is covering two of the most common threats to your well-being!!

Tim_Murphy

So instead of saying "you are MORE likely to have a heart attack that be attacked on the street!" We should say that "you are AS likely to have a heart attack than be attacked on the street!"

Paul,
The evidence that you are referencing yourself does not suggest your statement. You are contradicting yourself.

pma-ire

Elytron wrote:

no. i don't agree pma-ire.

thats ok!

but i have done the research on the stats! (ok i lost them! but i could do it again when i have the time I guess??)

When people make general statements about things from their own perspective it gonna be slanted by that persons experiences!!

This is why when government makes rule or law. They consult stats from the CSO to see what actually has been recorded about the subject. Not popular thinking at the time!! (Well thats how it's meant to happen!! )

pma-ire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Paul,
The evidence that you are referencing yourself does not suggest your statement. You are contradicting yourself.

hows that then??

pma-ire

i must add that i did leave out attacks and abuse in the home by family!

when i say that there would be a few more attacks not reported to even up the 10,000 difference! it would not be a major stretch to make!!

i guess i'll have to re-run this and come back to you all!!

Tim_Murphy

when i say that there would be a few more attacks not reported to even up the 10,000 difference! it would not be a major stretch to make!!

Yes, but that is just your own theory, you don't have any stats to back it up. The stats you have do not support what you are saying.

pma-ire

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Yes, but that is just your own theory, you don't have any stats to back it up. The stats you have do not support what you are saying.

i use the stats to show the reported figures!!

my point is that there will be more people reporting themselves to medical facilites because they have heart worries than a person who has been in a scrap with a langer on the way home from town on a saturday night!!

this means that their will never be exact stats on attacks on the person. but everyone must admit that there is a serious amout of difference between the two reporting standards and situations. that must leave us to consider the unreported cases to be substantial.

pma-ire

just to have a look at 2004!!

i'll run a report using these stats...

From the CSO...

http://www.cso.ie/statistics/principalcausesofdeath.htm

and the Gardai...

http://www.garda.ie/angarda/statistics/report2004.html (Crime Stats Section)

it may take me a while to do due to time though!! but if anyone else wants to do it feel free!!

Roper

Unreported attacks? So minor incidents in which nobody was seriously injured?

Family violence?
Right I'm going to rant here so you're all well warned.
I am sick to f*cking death of hearing people actually trying to prove that the world is more dangerous than it actually is. Why go to this trouble? Having a bad heart the single biggest killer in Ireland, fact.
What makes you think you have anything to offer a victim of domestic violence? What's next the "How to survive a beating from your husband" course? What is the point in quoting domestic violence as an argument for your cause?

I'll hark you back to something that came up a while ago. There was a debate on here about SD and the topic of rape defence came up. Now Fianna (whom I have never met and don't know MMA conspiracy theorists) quoted an ACTUAL REAL LIFE conversation with a person from the Rape Crisis Centre. I'm paraphrasing but the point was that NO SELF DEFENCE TRAINING WOULD HAVE HELPED. I believe he also thought it was offensive for people to think so. Yet afterward we still had people banging on about "well I think possibly if you maybe gave them a few moves" in spite of this.

PMA,
Don't bother running the report, its flawed in oh so many ways. But mostly that one is "major cause of death" and the other is violent attacks, not "fatal attacks".

crokester

pma-ire, as somebody that has had his heart broken through trying to understand statistics as part of their degree I would humbly suggest you give up on presenting those figures as evidence. WAY TO SIMPLIFIED.

I suppose ill ask you this question also because i think its good at rooting out peoples motives.

Q) Do you agree that sprinting is often the best form of self defence?

If yes

Q) Do you therefore train your sprint with Self defence in mind?

Please dont come back to me with "yes but what if someone pulls a jackhammer on your ass, or worse on your wimen or homeboys!? what ya gonna do then fool!?, thats how it goes down in the hood!".

Pro. F

Sorry about the BIG delay in response. the real world got in the way:(

crokester wrote:

Pro F you ask what if your friends and family are with you when you get attacked? Well what if you get stuck in a donkey stampede in the morning!? Wouldnt you find it a bit funny if I trained for donkey stampedes? What if? What if? What if? No ones denying that it happens, but SD practitioners often give it hours of training every week when the liklyhood of it happening is practicly zero if your careful.

My thinking is this: i train, and i'm going to continue training, MA because i want effective and useful fighting skills. what do i mean by the difference between effective and useful? i might be able to fight well in a one on one situation but if that situation is not the danger, because i can run away (and i do train this), then how is it useful to me? however training for fights that have no rules and taking into account all the likelihoods of what will be in a fight that i can't run away from (that there will be more than one attacker, that they will be armed (in this country with a blade or a syringe most likely)) is a way of training fighting skills that are useful, for me.
you say 'what if? what if? what if?' as if i'm saying that one should cover all the possibilities under the sun. that's not the case. i'm saying that i like to train the methods/areas that i will most likely need if i do actually need to fight. for me it's absurd to do MA training and not want to be able to fight.
you also say that the likelihood of it happening is zero if your careful. You're right that being careful is important. you can't do what you don't train. so if you advocate being carefull then you must also advocate studying/training being careful - thats what lots of SD people do.
finally (for this quote:eek: ) you mention SDers giving to much time to some aspects of training. The SDers that i pay attention to spend most of there time doing sport based training (but they use SD principles to shape their training in BJJ, Muay Thai etc.) and then add in some pure SD technique training. Of course there are misdirected people out there training SD techniques with compliant partners all the time and not doing anything else but that doesn't mean that everybody who wants useful fighting skills is doing that.

crokester wrote:

The point about biting, eye gouges and groin shots are interesting. Ill give the usual MMA response; UFC 1-6! A groin shot wont finish an attacker like a triangle choke will. And, like Matt Thornten repeats time and time again, if royce gracie wanted too he could lie in side control and chew the nipples oiff an attacker till his next birthday but hed prob be more concerned with snaping an arm! My point is that theres a delivery system used to administer an effective bite or eye gouge, the act of biting itself needs no training, we practice it three times a day at meals, but being able to hold an oppoment where you want and bite takes positional control and that involves the practice of wrestling, bjj etc. And again, if you have the positional control, biting wont be high on your list. And I agree that MMA can also attract some real thugs!

I agree a groin shot won't finish an attacker. i presume most SD people on these boards would agree with that.
Royce lying in side control chewing someones nipple. why would anybody do that? if i was in a fight and i was in side control i would try and stand up (unless i was fighting in some strange and controlled environment where i was certain that i only had one guy to deal with and i was certain that he was unarmed). talking about holding someone in position on the ground as if that's a good idea for a fight outside the ring shows a lack of thought about the situation.
Yes your right biting, eye gouging, requires a delivery system and bjj is one of the best ground delivery systems. but if you train bjj without an emphasis on returning to your feet asap then, imo, you're not making it as useful as it can be. it would, of course, be useful for a sports fight.

pma-ire

SD'ers can be very active in the sporting side of MA's. Who said they don't have to be??

As I said, all the aspects of MA's should be included to make a more complete MA'ist.

SD is as valid a reason to train as is fitness or past-time! Or even all 3!!

Millionaire

I do not train sprinting as I am not a sprinter!

though cause I train MA like Thai , i am fairly fit, and to give a good foundation to SD stuff.

If I cannot walk away, or talk my way out of it, I will hit the attacker, First! Fast! and Furious! until he is dazed enough , so I can hop skip and a jump away to safety!

yomchi

Millionaire wrote:

I do not train sprinting as I am not a sprinter!

though cause I train MA like Thai , i am fairly fit, and to give a good foundation to SD stuff.

If I cannot walk away, or talk my way out of it, I will hit the attacker, First! Fast! and Furious! until he is dazed enough , so I can hop skip and a jump away to safety!

Change dazed to twitching and your on a winner!

ninjaburr

Interesting thread.
Only I thought this was soppoused to be about trying out MA for the first time instead of a bitch slapping excerise on different interpritations of the true meaning of the origional question.
We as a community of so called MA STUDENTS have probibly just convinced the origional poster to take up chess or something instead of welcoming him into the rich world of MA.
It is of absolutly no consequence if we follow a path of MMA,BJJ,Trad Karate,Cross training or thai we are all just students.Students exist to learn.If you stop being open and close yourself off you are a follower not a student.

pma-ire

Elytron wrote:

Just one of the things that occured to me. If i was a woman and a victim of violent abuse in the family like pma-ire said, I don't think taking up Martial Arts wouild be the best solution........

I can see where abuse in the home is as much mental torment as it can be physical. The only way out of that mind set is rebuilding self worth.

But being strong enough to take that step away from the cycle is the hardest part.

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

Yo Bro Peace, love you toooooo duuuddddeeeee, gimme a toke bro!

(woodstock plays in the baclground) LOL!!! ; -)

ah wouldn't that be a beautiful thing. everybody chilled, relaxed, enjoying themselves and no talk of violence:D

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

ah wouldn't that be a beautiful thing. everybody chilled, relaxed, enjoying themselves and no talk of violence:D

This is why I miss my Hatha Yoga class (irishschoolofyoga ...see Roy...best yoga man in Ireland)!

The experience of Hatha Yoga, the moves, and breathing and the meditation(yoga nidra), brought me to a level of inner calmness, peace, and tranquility that i have never experience before this!

I try to go to the beautiful buddhist temples here, they are so awesome looking, but the monks feed stray dogs, so I keep getting chased out by howling dogs!!! No Fair!

The thing is this...when viewed by outsiders (non MA people) as in 98% of the population, i don't care if its SD. MMA, Thai, Karate...alot of people view MA as a violent sport. For years (as a teen) my father tried to get me to stop "karate" even threated to send me to board at Blackrock College, so get me away from it! imagine me if I had went to school there....LOL!!!