The Afghans - could it all go a bit Pete Tong

Captain Trips

The other thread is on a different topic, so I started this one:

specifically, what if these guys are not just talking about suicide here. That tends to have not happened in the past - the suicides are a part of a broader picture of violence including that to the public.

Basically, these guys don't get their way now with this, and it all ends badly and either they have some other guys set to blow some **** up in Dublin (like London, NYC), or else a bunch of other similar guys in a similar situation decide that Ireland is now a target.

How ****ed would that be? Does it sound so far fetched? The London bombers were all disgruntled Brits. What if the sons of these guys grows up and takes revenge?

We could be looking at some bad **** here.

OPtion 1: Give in, appeasement. Next step: loads more decide to threaten suicide or else.

OPtion 2: Don't give in. Next step: the anger is turned instead outward to Irish society - bombings, etc., .

Al Quada isn't the all encompassing organisation we might think. So while these guys are holding the country to ransom ("or else"..), there is an equally disenfranchised group of guys ready to say do it with terrorist attacks next time. The umbrella of media catchphrases like AQ doesn't convey this fact I think.

My own opinion: people threatening violence to get their way should not be tolerated. This includes violence to themselves (or their impressionable children) or to others. Would people who are ready to kill themselves think much of blowing up a Luas tram? The form of negotiation on their terms involves violence as it stands now.

magick

OPtion 2: Don't give in. Next step: the anger is turned instead outward to Irish society - bombings, etc., .

somehow i doubt their kids would bomb us , unless they were disgruntled muslim extremeists , they types their parents were trying to get away from in afganistan

scop

Not far fetched at all, as the UK has started to change its human rights laws its become increasinlgy obvious Europe has strangled itself, both demograhically and socially. The Islamification of Europe has started to reach its embryonic stage of pushing for a louder voice, as they realise we are powerful to do anything for PC reasons, just think of the average response to the London bombings or riots in France of social exclusion and so on, to anybody looking in thats plain weakness.

We have people blackmailing us for citizenship in town, and people supporting them, can you imagine what that tells about a society to anybody seeking to exploit it?

homah_7ft

Captain Trips wrote:

The other thread is on a different topic, so I started this one:

specifically, what if these guys are not just talking about suicide here. That tends to have not happened in the past - the suicides are a part of a broader picture of violence including that to the public.

Basically, these guys don't get their way now with this, and it all ends badly and either they have some other guys set to blow some **** up in Dublin (like London, NYC), or else a bunch of other similar guys in a similar situation decide that Ireland is now a target.

How ****ed would that be? Does it sound so far fetched? The London bombers were all disgruntled Brits. What if the sons of these guys grows up and takes revenge?

We could be looking at some bad **** here.

OPtion 1: Give in, appeasement. Next step: loads more decide to threaten suicide or else.

OPtion 2: Don't give in. Next step: the anger is turned instead outward to Irish society - bombings, etc., .

Al Quada isn't the all encompassing organisation we might think. So while these guys are holding the country to ransom ("or else"..), there is an equally disenfranchised group of guys ready to say do it with terrorist attacks next time. The umbrella of media catchphrases like AQ doesn't convey this fact I think.

My own opinion: people threatening violence to get their way should not be tolerated. This includes violence to themselves (or their impressionable children) or to others. Would people who are ready to kill themselves think much of blowing up a Luas tram? The form of negotiation on their terms involves violence as it stands now.

Meh. I'm feeling safe.

darkman2

scop wrote:

Not far fetched at all, as the UK has started to change its human rights laws its become increasinlgy obvious Europe has strangled itself, both demograhically and socially. The Islamification of Europe has started to reach its embryonic stage of pushing for a louder voice, as they realise we are powerful to do anything for PC reasons, just think of the average response to the London bombings or riots in France of social exclusion and so on, to anybody looking in thats plain weakness.

We have people blackmailing us for citizenship in town, and people supporting them, can you imagine what that tells about a society to anybody seeking to exploit it?

I said this a couple of days ago that we risk making martyrs of these guys. I dont think its far fetched.

P.S Sky news now have it on their website.

mike65

Hmmmmm feels like an extrapolation too far. Not sure what scop means by the reaction to London bombings, the people reacted exactly as they should have - with phlegmatism er phlegmaticly rather than an anti-Muslim riot.

Mike.

scop

mike65 wrote:

Hmmmmm feels like an extrapolation too far. Not sure what scop means by the reaction to London bombings, the people reacted exactly as they should have - with phlegmatism rather than an anti-Muslim riot.

Mike.

Oh Im implying that at all, I meant the refusal to lay blame at the door of Muslims as much as the indigenous population, that is a tendency to exonerate minorities rather than face the issues.

Beer is Life

scop wrote:

Not far fetched at all, as the UK has started to change its human rights laws its become increasinlgy obvious Europe has strangled itself, both demograhically and socially. The Islamification of Europe has started to reach its embryonic stage of pushing for a louder voice, as they realise we are powerful to do anything for PC reasons, just think of the average response to the London bombings or riots in France of social exclusion and so on, to anybody looking in thats plain weakness.

We have people blackmailing us for citizenship in town, and people supporting them, can you imagine what that tells about a society to anybody seeking to exploit it?

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1039

Captain Trips

I don't think we are quite at that stage yet (thankfully) but I heard of similar situations on George Hook earlier this evening regarding the UK. Sweden seems to have really got some problems such as the gang rapes in Malmo and such, but they have been going for ultra integration for years/decades and a different issue IMHO.

What I am most concerned about is this risk of bombings/attacks in Ireland. People may bitch about the Gardai but they are *our* Gardai for *our* society and laws. These people (wherever they are from or whatever religion) are threatening violence unless the state gives them superior treatment and recognition than native citizens, immigrants and asylum seekers. That is not on at all.

WhiteWashMan

away to humanities with you

simu

Captain Trips wrote:

Next step: the anger is turned instead outward to Irish society - bombings, etc., .

Woah. Quantum leap, more like.

Nevyn

Isn't Ireland growing up, shoot outs, crack cocaine, phyco bus rampage on the motor way and now a sensative hostage situation in a church.

They got to sleep some time and then it it should be in with the gas cansiters to knock them out and detaine them and process thier claims.

hiberno

Thaedydal, remember the Nord Ost, the Russian's tried the gas bit and it didn't work out so well, plus there ar Gardai and other officials in there waiting with them.

I don't believe this will cause bombers to grow up in Dublin, as these jokers have no support within the Islamic community, if anything they're an embarassment.

What is making this worse is the amount of media exposure. Turn off the cameras, take away the journo's and forcibly remove them from the cathedral, a couple of days in the rain and they'd be heading back to their free accommodation and working on an appeal. It's a joke and we shouldn't be allowing anybody to dictate terms, it gives genuine asylum seekers a bad name!

mike65

I certainly think a media black out would be a good idea. Cue indymedia types
having babies about 'state/media collusion as the oppressed huddle is made victim of neo-facist Justice Minister' etc :rolleyes:

Mike.

hiberno

And it'll last long enough for the FF/PD's to organise another "event" involving SF to turn the country's head.

And anyway, if Munster win today, and Ireland have a good run in the Eurovision, a bunch of Asian criminals will be no longer news fodder!

Bottle_of_Smoke

Captain Trips wrote:

OPtion 1: Give in, appeasement. Next step: loads more decide to threaten suicide or else.

OPtion 2: Don't give in. Next step: the anger is turned instead outward to Irish society - bombings, etc., .

Option 2, Even if the bombings started we have much bigger things to worry about than 56 people being murdered in a city of 7million(July 7th london)

I mean I read in someone's sig(ok probably shouldn't rely on as fact but I'll google it later) that more people have been killed by Irish road accidents between 1997-2005 than the total amount of people killed by Northern Ireland troubles.

So personally I say fukk suicide bombers, lets put more time & effort into keeping nukes out of their hands

I don't want this thread to come across as disrespectful to those affected by terrorris as I have no personal experience, I'm just trying to be logical about it.

DadaKopf

mike65 wrote:

I certainly think a media black out would be a good idea. Cue indymedia types having babies about 'state/media collusion as the oppressed huddle is made victim of neo-facist Justice Minister' etc

I think there's been a near-total media blackout since the peaceful resolution of the hunger strike at exactly the time when Irish people need to discuss this issue.

The only way I can begin to approach this discussion is to ask the following questions:

• Who made the decision to leak confidential information about rape allegations relating to one of the hunger strikers?
  
• Why did the Department of Justice reject the proposal of the Church of Ireland, which would have brought a quicker end to the hunger strike?
  
• Why did the national newspapers suggest that the hunger strike was ended by Garda intervention when, in fact, the hunger strikers chose to end it themselves?
  
• Why did the Irish UNHCR representative give the Irish asylum process two thumbs up when his head office and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties have regularly criticised the Irish asylum system and the Department of Justice's handling of it?
  
• Why did the Evening Herald misrepresent the position of Integrating Ireland – one of the NGOs that convinced the hunger strikers to end their protest – implying that they supported the hunger strike when they said nothing of the sort?
  
• Who made the decision to print the faces of the children hunger strikers in the Evening Herald, even though this contravenes their human rights, which is law in this country?
  
• Why did the adult hunger strikers receive no medical attention or food when they were taken to Bridewell garda station?
  
• Why are asylum seekers (i.e. asylum seekers who have entered the system) segregated from society and living in decrepit conditions for anything up to five years?

Hobbes

Captain Trips wrote:

We could be looking at some bad **** here.

You need to lay off that bad ****!

there is an equally disenfranchised group of guys ready to say do it with terrorist attacks next time.

There is? Where did you hear that then?

My own opinion: people threatening violence to get their way should not be tolerated. This includes violence to themselves

Absolutly! Clearly these people in the Church are trying to set a example for others to follow! If they were Irish nationals they would never resort to Hunger Striking or terrorism to get thier point across.... hmmm hang on a sec. :rolleyes:

Bottle_of_Smoke

Hobbes wrote:

Absolutly! Clearly these people in the Church are trying to set a example for others to follow! If they were Irish nationals they would never resort to Hunger Striking or terrorism to get thier point across.... hmmm hang on a sec. :rolleyes:

HE NEVER SAID IT WAS OK FOR IRISH PEOPLE TO HUNGER STRIKE - NOR DID HE EVER SAY IT WAS ACCEPTABLE FOR IRISH PEOPLE TO BE TERRORISTS - It's incredibly offensive to assume someone will have a certain opinion because they're Irish. He clearly said PEOPLE not AFGHANS

Hobbes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

HE NEVER SAID IT WAS OK FOR IRISH PEOPLE TO HUNGER STRIKE - NOR DID HE EVER SAY IT WAS ACCEPTABLE FOR IRISH PEOPLE TO BE TERRORISTS

I never said that.

It's incredibly offensive to assume someone will have a certain opinion because they're Irish. He clearly said PEOPLE not AFGHANS

Actually he said "people in the church" so he was referring to the Afgans. Of course if the OP was referring to "all people" then please feel free to correct me.. His rant (for want of a better word) is based on nothing but paranonia.

Completly baseless and going on about Asylum seekers using Hunger Striking to get thier way as being something wrong is comical in light of Irish history on the subject.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Hobbes wrote:

I never said that.



Actually he said "people in the church" so he was referring to the Afgans. Of course if the OP was referring to "all people" then please feel free to correct me..

Completly baseless and going on about Asylum seekers using Hunger Striking to get thier way as being something wrong is comical in light of Irish history on the subject.

From the original post:
My own opinion: people threatening violence to get their way should not be tolerated. This includes violence to themselves (or their impressionable children) or to others.

People - I think he may have even being making a point of distinguishing that from the rest of the thread - as not to be biased.

You didn't say it directly, but you did say this -

Absolutly! Clearly these people in the Church are trying to set a example for others to follow! If they were Irish nationals they would never resort to Hunger Striking or terrorism to get thier point across.... hmmm hang on a sec.

To me that sounded like you were hinting "how can you criticise foreign terrorists when Irish people have done the exact same thing up until recently"

His rant (for want of a better word) is based on nothing but paranonia.

I've got nothing on you here

simu

DadaKopf wrote:

I think there's been a near-total media blackout since the peaceful resolution of the hunger strike at exactly the time when Irish people need to discuss this issue.

Yup. Now we're being told that it's the fairest and most transparent system in the world! Whatever that means...

Hobbes

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

People - I think he may have even being making a point of distinguishing that from the rest of the thread - as not to be biased.

He was referring to the people in the Church who were Afgans, and even ties them to AQ (when only two have been reported to have been connected).

To me that sounded like you were hinting "how can you criticise foreign terrorists when Irish people have done the exact same thing up until recently"

Its not so much that, its a lot of the scaremongering going on people tend to be totally blind to the fact that Irish people also went on hunger strike and terrorism to get people to give into thier cause. Its like all this never happened to some people.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Hobbes wrote:

He was referring to the people in the Church who were Afgans, and even ties them to AQ (when only two have been reported to have been connected).



Its not so much that, its a lot of the scaremongering going on people tend to be totally blind to the fact that Irish people also went on hunger strike and terrorism to get people to give into thier cause. Its like all this never happened to some people.

I dont think he was - in the closing bit he said "My opinion: People who..."

DadaKopf

This is hardly relevant to the topic, is it?

Captain Trips

Hobbes wrote:

He was referring to the people in the Church who were Afgans, and even ties them to AQ (when only two have been reported to have been connected).



Its not so much that, its a lot of the scaremongering going on people tend to be totally blind to the fact that Irish people also went on hunger strike and terrorism to get people to give into thier cause. Its like all this never happened to some people.

No, actually I was referring to people in general. It is manipulative and dehumanising to play on emotions in an artificially and purpsefully generated situation as this was. Likewise, the seige holders in Beslan with the school kids - give us our way or else, the Israelis - give us our way or we will kill you (and whoever happens to be near you), the Palestinians (nowadays) - give us our way or your bus to work/coffee shop will be blown up. And on, and on......the US saying you are "with us or against us" - it all is a very much fals dichotomy, that their is no middle ground and the media in all matters reinforces it.

You are being held hostage to your emotions - that you do not wish to see someone dead for your own principles/laws/culture/anything. At it's most basic level, it's something that only a certain proportion of a population will resort to, as some will resort to other aggression such as terrorist attacks.

I think it's the form of negotation, and in this situation the hunger strike in the church was a "pre emptive strike" on our developing immigration and asylum processes.