Ireland Squad for tour of New Zealand and Australia and Chruchill Cup Squad

Downtime

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]The 2006 Ireland Squad to tour New Zealand and Australia is as follows:[/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Backs (14)[/FONT][FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT]
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Isaac Boss (Ballymena/Ulster ) 0
Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 8
Gordon D’Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster) 20
Girvan Dempsey (Terenure College/Leinster) 63
Gavin Duffy (Harlequins) 4
Denis Hickie (St. Mary’s College/Leinster) 51
Shane Horgan (Lansdowne/Leinster) 45
John Kelly (Cork Constitution/Munster) 17
Geordan Murphy (Leicester) 39
Brian O’Driscoll (Capt.) (Blackrock College/Leinster) 64
Ronan O’Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster) 60
Jeremy Staunton (Wasps) 3
Peter Stringer (Shannon/Munster) 66
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 6

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[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Forwards (16)[/FONT]
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Neil Best (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 2
Rory Best (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 3
Simon Best (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 12
Leo Cullen (Leicester) 18
Jerry Flannery (Shannon/Munster) 6
Anthony Foley (Shannon/Munster) 62
Keith Gleeson (St.Mary’s College/Leinster) 23
John Hayes (Bruff/Munster) 62
Marcus Horan (Shannon/Munster) 37
Denis Leamy (Cork Constitution/Munster) 11
Donncha O’Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster) 24
Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster) 33
Mick O’Driscoll (Cork Constitution/Munster) 4
David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster) 27
Bryan Young (Ballymena/Ulster) 0

A.N. Other[/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Not Considered due to injury:
Simon Easterby
Johnny O’Connor
Malcolm O’Kelly
Eoin Reddan

Ireland A Squad for Churchill Cup

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Backs (13)[/FONT]

[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Player / Senior Caps / A Caps
Bryn Cunningham (Dungannon/Ulster) 0 (3)
Ian Dowling (Shannon/Munster) 0 (1)
John Hearty (Galwegians/Connacht) 0 (1)
Eoghan Hickey (UCD/Leinster) 0 (0)
Chris Keane (Buccaneers/Connacht) 0 (2)
Robert Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 0 (1)
Simon Keogh (Harlequins) 0 (0)
Mossie Lawlor (Shannon/Munster) 0 (2)
Kieran Lewis (St.Mary’s College/Leinster) 1 (3)
Andrew Maxwell (Ballymena/Ulster) 0 (0)
Tomas O’Leary (Dolphin/Munster) 0 (2)
David Quinlan (Northampton) 2 (1)
Paddy Wallace (Ballymena/Ulster) 0 (8)
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[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]Forwards (15)[/FONT]
[FONT=tahoma,arial,helvetica,sans-serif]
Brian Blaney (Terenure College/Leinster) 0 (1)
Damien Browne (Northampton) 0 (0)
Tom Court (Ballymena/Ulster) 0 (0)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 0 (0)
John Fogarty (Buccaneers/Connacht) 0 (2)
David Gannon (Buccaneers/Connacht) 0 (0)
Jamie Heaslip (Clontarf/Leinster) 0 (2)
Ray Hogan (Galwegians/Connacht) 0 (2)
Trevor Hogan (Shannon/Munster) 0 (2)
Shane Jennings (Capt.) (Leicester) 0 (3)
John Muldoon (Galwegians/Connacht) 0 (0)
Ronan McCormack (UCD/Leinster) 0 (4)
Matt McCullough (Ballymena/Ulster) 4 (3)
Neil McMillan (Ballymena/Ulster) 0 (0)
Roger Wilson (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster) 1 (3)[/FONT]
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I am a bit disappointed I feel some of the 'A' guys should be off Down Under and some guys should be thinking about hanging their boots up. I would have liked to see Heaslip and Jennings go Down Under and perhaps Kearney

Peter B

What about Alan Quinlan?

MG

Peter B wrote:

What about Alan Quinlan?

He is AN Other. Just waiting til after the last round of the CL to see if he is fit enough.

Snickers Man

John Kelly?

FFS

No to Corkmen playing in the three quarters.

Down with this sort of thing.

Crash

I would've liked to see a few of the younger lads, Jennings Kearney and Heaslip brought along to NZ personally.

Sundy

Snickers Man wrote:

John Kelly?

FFS

No to Corkmen playing in the three quarters.

Down with this sort of thing.

Your joking yeah?

istep

Snickers Man wrote:

John Kelly?

FFS

No to Corkmen playing in the three quarters.

Down with this sort of thing.

Nice one centurion .. like it.

Great to see Gleeson back in the fold ... think him and Wally are going to be in uber competition for the openside spot ... also would like to see Boss given a chance but knowing EOS he'll only get it if PS gets injured or we're getting hammered with 10 to go !!

spanner

Snickers Man wrote:

John Kelly?

FFS

No to Corkmen playing in the three quarters.

Down with this sort of thing.

Quite right!!!
they just do not have that panash, X factor if you will.

They lack that swarve that you only get with going to a private school in the dublin area

Snickers Man

spanner wrote:

Quite right!!!
they just do not have that panash, X factor if you will.

They lack that swarve that you only get with going to a private school in the dublin area

Or Belfast. Or Ballymena. Or Wexford indeed. Any bloody where apart from Munster.

The 'Great' Munster three quarters were people with hands like shovels who couldn't pass water but could tackle an elephant.

Go on. Name me one talented running back from Munster.

In history.

Ever.







Thought so.

thebaz

is the number of Ulstermen picked, out of political correctness - there hasn't been any good Ulster players since Davey Humphries. Whats the story with the 3 Bests ? its like the skit !! I've nothing against Ulstermen, if there good eneogh , pick them , but please don't pick them out of political correctness !

Crash

Take the Munster three quarter line discussion to a new thread, or shut up about it here.

Teg Veece

Snickers Man wrote:

Or Belfast. Or Ballymena. Or Wexford indeed. Any bloody where apart from Munster.

The 'Great' Munster three quarters were people with hands like shovels who couldn't pass water but could tackle an elephant.

Go on. Name me one talented running back from Munster.

In history.

Ever.







Thought so.

Your Munster bashing is growing tiresome, Snickers Man.
Ye lost. Get over it.

MG

Considering there are over 60 players named there, it's a bit of a set back for those ommitted. Bob Casety has been mentioned a lot but there are other players also left out. Names that spring to mind are Mark McHugh, Stephan Keogh, Bracken, McPhillips, Jackman (injured?), O'Riordan, McCullen, Brennen. Who else? To not even be included in the A team must mean that Eddie doesn't rate them much.

Snickers Man

Teg Veece wrote:

Your Munster bashing is growing tiresome, Snickers Man.
Ye lost. Get over it.

I'm well over 'it'. There's always next season to look forward to.

I'm merely looking to the future, and given the number of promising running backs emerging (mainly in Leinster it has to be said) I can't for the life of me see how the Irish team is strengthened by John Kelly's presence in it.

I'm not complaining about the other Munster players in the squad. They're there on merit. Even Staunton, who is there because we have NOBODY else as outhalf backup. And that's deeply worrying. But with the likes of Kearney and Lewis emerging, we really need to blood some new talent in the backline. To go with the good players we already have. What better way to bring a young guy along than to send him on tour with O'Driscoll, Horgan, D'Arcy, Hickie etc etc?

TarfHead

Snickers Man wrote:

Go on. Name me one talented running back from Munster.

Michael Kiernan
Moss Finn

TarfHead

Snickers Man wrote:

What better way to bring a young guy along than to send him on tour with O'Driscoll, Horgan, D'Arcy, Hickie etc etc?

Heaslip, Kearney and the like are far better off at the Churchill Cup, than holding tackling bags in the SH. There's no way EOS is handing out first caps in NZ/OZ unless there are injuries.

Crash

While i'd agree with you to an extent Snickers man (I think i'm being generally unbiased here but some of the munster lads can feel free to correct me) in that I would have preferred to have seen Kearney heading off in place of Kelly really, the worry would be that it could end up being his Tate vs. Henson moment. I personally think Kearney could handle it, but there would be that worry there that against a team of the speed and physicality of the kiwi's that it could all go terribly wrong.

I do feel that sooner or later Kearney and Heaslip and a few others are going to have to be brought in though, or we face losing them at the point where they can only keep getting better and better

spanner

spanner wrote:

Quite right!!!
they just do not have that panash, X factor if you will.

They lack that swarve that you only get with going to a private school in the dublin area

by the way only messing here

I think yesterday proved that munster can use their backline to good effect

thebaz

should the munster pack be picked on block for the tests down under ?
With squad available, i think so.
The only consideration would be Heaslip or Easterby for the aging Foley .

carlowboy

Gavin Duffy who gets dropped because Quins getting relegated is immediately promoted to the squad without play in a GP game? I assume that EOS has him there as FB cover but all he's been playing for at Quins is the centre. Lewis should be there in my opinion or failing that, Andy Maxwell.

Baz, no of course not. Just because they are good at club level, doesn't mean they'll come close to the New Zealand pack. We need Gleeson in there who embarassed McAwe the last time they played each other in 2002. Also, Easterby is injured.

Snickers Man

spanner wrote:

by the way only messing here

I think yesterday proved that munster can use their backline to good effect

They used their backline the way they always use their backline: in support of a pack that suffocates the life out of the opposition. Their purpose is mainly defensive and supportive. They are not meant to be inventive or threatening in attack. Their rolling maul does all that.

If that was the game Ireland played then there would be a case for including more tough hard tackling but otherwise limited Munster backs. Unfortunately, whereas the Munster pack is usually dominant at provincial and HC level, it is not good enough to dominate top class international opposition.

So the likes of Anthony Horgan, who does not look at all out of place on a Munster team playing a pressing and tidying up game, looks like a total embarassment when playing behind an outgunned pack for Ireland. Being given a 5m headstart and still being overhauled by an All Black second row as he was last autumn is indicative of how off the pace he is at international level.

Because the Irish/Munster pack cannot dominate top class opposition at international level, you need to have backs who can pull something special out of the bag. People who can threaten from half chances like O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Trimble, Geordan Murphy, Hickie, Shane Horgan. You can't indulge waddling little gut buckets like Anthony Horgan.

Oh, and who was it who missed the straightforward tackle that caused the break that led to Biarritz's try yesterday? Hint: he's going to Australia.

I think too that this is a reason why O'Gara often looks out of place playing for Ireland as compared with playing for Munster. He has little experience of getting fast talented backs playing into space. His role is to marshall a tough dominant pack of forwards. When he is asked to exploit the skills of talented running backs, he struggles. So while he can look like Field Marshall Rommel playing for Munster, he looks like Colonel Blimp playing for Ireland.

What Ireland badly needs to find on this tour are, in order of priority:

1) Some meaningful backup to Stringer and O'Gara. Right now, if one of them gets injured we're screwed.

2) A pair of props. Preferably a quartet of props.

3) A game plan that can marry the fighting qualities of a largely Munster pack with the inventiveness of a Leinster/Ulster/Exile backline.

If we can do all that, we'll be laughing. We have strength in some depth in all other positions.

carlowboy

We do have back up to Stringer at least. Isaac Boss is in magnificent form for Ulster in the Celtic Leauge. Whether Eddie notices or not is another matter.

We do have at least four props. Horanm, Hayes, Young and Best (unfortunately injured). Young and Best are dominating opposition in the Celtic Leaugue, until Best got injured. Young has got bags of potential, and should be loosehead for the World Cup. As for Hayes and Horan, they may not be great scrummages, but Hayes is a fantastic line-out operator and Horan gets around the park.
As for the future, we have Cian Healey, one of the most promising players ever to come from schools rugby.

Snickers Man

carlowboy wrote:

We do have back up to Stringer at least. Isaac Boss is in magnificent form for Ulster in the Celtic Leauge. Whether Eddie notices or not is another matter.

Well I hope he steps up while on tour down under. We need cover in that position.

carlowboy wrote:

We do have at least four props. Horanm, Hayes, Young and Best (unfortunately injured). Young and Best are dominating opposition in the Celtic Leaugue, until Best got injured. Young has got bags of potential, and should be loosehead for the World Cup.

I notice that Young is going on tour and I really hope he makes the grade too. You can't have too many props. Horan and Hayes in particular have got so many miles on the clock because there has been so little backup for either. Nobody admires Reggie Corrigan more than me but his best days are probably behind him now.

carlowboy wrote:

As for Hayes and Horan, they may not be great scrummages, but Hayes is a fantastic line-out operator and Horan gets around the park.

Oh I'd agree. My point was and is that they are getting little rest time and we are very thin on the ground should either get injured.

carlowboy wrote:

As for the future, we have Cian Healey, one of the most promising players ever to come from schools rugby.

Good. Push him through the system as quick as possible.

Teg Veece

What Ireland need is a first centre. At the moment we have at least 3 second centres and we're just pushing one of them to play at number 12 as if the two positions are interchangable. Darcy ilacks all the qualities which distinguishes a number 12 from a number 13. He was absolutely annihilated by Halstead. Ideally you want your first centre to punch a hole and your second centre to run through it.

And just on Snickers Man's comments on Horgan. Is that the same "waddling little gut bucket" who was targetted to no avail by the "best backline in Europe". They sure showed him.

Snickers Man

He's a reasonable tidy-up defensive player. He can catch the ball, make his tackles as long as he's not caught in space facing a fast player and for Munster that's fine, because they are not looking for him to be a strike attacking player.

Ireland's pack (essentially Munster in green) is not good enough at top level to dominate the opposition the way they can do at provincial/European level. So he gets exposed.

You're not seriously suggesting he be put back in the Irish squad?

carlowboy

Teg Veece wrote:

What Ireland need is a first centre. At the moment we have at least 3 second centres and we're just pushing one of them to play at number 12 as if the two positions are interchangable. Darcy ilacks all the qualities which distinguishes a number 12 from a number 13. He was absolutely annihilated by Halstead. Ideally you want your first centre to punch a hole and your second centre to run through it.

And just on Snickers Man's comments on Horgan. Is that the same "waddling little gut bucket" who was targetted to no avail by the "best backline in Europe". They sure showed him.

I agree we need a 12 but disagree on your views of a 12. If we wanted a 12 to punch a hole, then why not play Horgan there..........no wait, that failed. We need the second type of 12, the 2nd five eigth as they are known in New Zealand. A distributor who has a decent pass a la Mauger or McAlllister or Catt.

Amazotheamazing

I'm not being funny here, but how about trying Staunton at 12? Can kick off either foot and is able to break, certainly matches the Australian discription of 2nd 5/8ths. It's worth a risk in one of the November tests. Failing that, I think Trimble might yet develop the pyysicality need to play 12, apparently Bod won't be played at 12 due to his shoulder.

Peter B

carlowboy wrote:

Baz, no of course not. Just because they are good at club level, doesn't mean they'll come close to the New Zealand pack. We need Gleeson in there who embarassed McAwe the last time they played each other in 2002. Also, Easterby is injured.

I think it is fair to say Wallace definately deserves the No. 7 shirt. He has been performing excellently all season and outplayed Gleeson in all aspects of play in Munster-Leinster. Gleeson maybe super-sub. I fear Johnny O'Concrete will have to do something really special to get back the 7 shirt. (Very, very special)

carlowboy

Peter B wrote:

I He has been performing excellently all season and outplayed Gleeson in all aspects of play in Munster-Leinster.

Hilarious. Gleeson and Heaslip were Leinster's best players that day. Wallace did well defensively but didn't do those breaks he's picked for. He's not half the tackler Gleese is and Gleese can actually ruck. :eek:

I'm not being funny here, but how about trying Staunton at 12? Can kick off either foot and is able to break, certainly matches the Australian discription of 2nd 5/8ths. It's worth a risk in one of the November tests. Failing that, I think Trimble might yet develop the pyysicality need to play 12, apparently Bod won't be played at 12 due to his shoulder.

The idea of a second 5/8th is someone who is consistant and can back up the out-half. Staunton, however is the definition of flakiness and can't tackle either. As regards Trimble, he's a lot better built than Staunton.

Amazotheamazing

Gleeson might have been Leinster best player, but that doesn't mean he played particulary well, or even well enough to out play Wallace, if gleeson was so good, why was it it that Contepomi fell apart and not O'Gara? Gleeson neither protected his outhalf, or harassed the the oppositions outhalf.

I agree Staunton is a hot and cold player but like I said it's an option, not necessaryly a foolproof plan, but perhaps worth trying. It's interesting that prolonged gametime at 10 has made him more consistant, if he can continue to get first team football there's no reason he can't continue to improve.

carlowboy

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Gleeson might have been Leinster best player, but that doesn't mean he played particulary well, or even well enough to out play Wallace, if gleeson was so good, why was it it that Contepomi fell apart and not O'Gara? Gleeson neither protected his outhalf, or harassed the the oppositions outhalf.

Contepomi didn't play particularly well, because he didn't play particularly well, nothing more. How could Gleeson protect him? By blocking Wallace? Contepomi never got turned over either so your point is pretty bad.

I agree Staunton is a hot and cold player but like I said it's an option, not necessaryly a foolproof plan, but perhaps worth trying. It's interesting that prolonged gametime at 10 has made him more consistant, if he can continue to get first team football there's no reason he can't continue to improve.

Its suicide to put a flakey player who can't tackle at 12! Simple as that.

Amazotheamazing

carlowboy wrote:

Contepomi didn't play particularly well, because he didn't play particularly well, nothing more. How could Gleeson protect him? By blocking Wallace? Contepomi never got turned over either so your point is pretty bad.


Its suicide to put a flakey player who can't tackle at 12! Simple as that.

Carlow, sorry to rain on your parade but you're wrong on Contepomi not being turned over in the semi.

10. Felipe Contepomi - Points Scored: 6; Penalty Goals: 2; Carries: 8; Defenders Beaten: 2; Turnovers Conceded: 5; Kicks From Hand: 11; Tackles: 7; Missed Tackles: 0; Tackle Success: 100%; Penalties Conceded: 1, stats from Irishrugby.ie.

Those 5 turnovers are due, in part, to one Mr. D Wallace.

7. Keith Gleeson - Carries: 3; Defenders Beaten: 0; Tackles; 10; Missed Tackles: 1; Tackle Success: 90%; Penalties Conceded: 1

7. David Wallace - Carries: 6; Defenders Beaten: 1; Turnovers Conceded: 1; Tackles: 15; Missed Tackles: 1; Tackle Success: 93%

So Wallace carried more than Gleeson, and tackled more than Gleeson, and helped Contepomi be turned over 5 times, the real question here is, what would it take for Wallace to impress you?

Now considering Staunton was a standout defender in the Ireland A game against England A and in Toulouse he was the lynchpin of Wasps defence I'm wonder where you're basing your "can't tackle" thing on? Sure he's no flanker but he's a good defender.

Chucky the tree

Snickers Man wrote:

What Ireland badly needs.

...is to sack EOS.



Stanton cant handle the pressure of the big game*. Hes nearly as bad as barry everitt. :mad:

But at 12 where he wouldnt have to kick its an opitions. He cant do any worse the D'arcy.

carlowboy

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Carlow, sorry to rain on your parade but you're wrong on Contepomi not being turned over in the semi.

10. Felipe Contepomi - Points Scored: 6; Penalty Goals: 2; Carries: 8; Defenders Beaten: 2; Turnovers Conceded: 5; Kicks From Hand: 11; Tackles: 7; Missed Tackles: 0; Tackle Success: 100%; Penalties Conceded: 1, stats from Irishrugby.ie.

Those 5 turnovers are due, in part, to one Mr. D Wallace.

7. Keith Gleeson - Carries: 3; Defenders Beaten: 0; Tackles; 10; Missed Tackles: 1; Tackle Success: 90%; Penalties Conceded: 1

7. David Wallace - Carries: 6; Defenders Beaten: 1; Turnovers Conceded: 1; Tackles: 15; Missed Tackles: 1; Tackle Success: 93%

So Wallace carried more than Gleeson, and tackled more than Gleeson, and helped Contepomi be turned over 5 times, the real question here is, what would it take for Wallace to impress you?

Now considering Staunton was a standout defender in the Ireland A game against England A and in Toulouse he was the lynchpin of Wasps defence I'm wonder where you're basing your "can't tackle" thing on? Sure he's no flanker but he's a good defender.

Fair enough, you got me. Re Staunton still, have you seen the Powergen Final?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Amazotheamazing

Missed it, was watching the u-19's v France (I think), heard he hadn't the best game alright (but then again, very few players play well in finals). Still think it's an experiment worth trying, it would give us another option, last thing we need is a repeat of 2005 when we had 3 centres injured and needed to call back Maggs.

What will be interesting re Staunton is who Wasps buy this summer, Geech is one of the best coaches in the world (imo) and he won't persist with Staunton if he thinks he isn't up to it.

thebaz

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Trimble has potential, but would not strike me as the complete article yet -- apart from Humphries and , maybe Trimble -- Ulster has not produced any true international quality players recently -- wish they did -- as if there Irish I don't care where they are from -- so less of the rubbish mate.

carlowboy

I do think Wasps may be getting there hands on Danny Cipriani, the star out-half of the England team in the U-19 world cup. He has buckets of talent basically. If he does go, Staunton will have to look for new employment.

Snickers Man

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Now considering Staunton was a standout defender in the Ireland A game against England A and in Toulouse he was the lynchpin of Wasps defence I'm wonder where you're basing your "can't tackle" thing on? Sure he's no flanker but he's a good defender.

Maybe he was watching the PowerGen Cup final between Wasps and Llanelli in which, for all that he ended on the winning side ,Staunton was badly at fault for Llanelli's first try.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see Staunton emerge as a credible out half alternative (for God's sake we need somebody) but he hasn't impressed in the few big matches I've seen him play. Not least his international appearance against Samoa a few years back.

Amazotheamazing

carlowboy wrote:

I do think Wasps may be getting there hands on Danny Cipriani, the star out-half of the England team in the U-19 world cup. He has buckets of talent basically. If he does go, Staunton will have to look for new employment.

Cipraini is a Wasps player already afaik, he has played some A games for them. He is also still in school, and anyone who think a schoolboy is physically ready for the GP is crazy, esp at outhalf. I guess he'll make his senior start somewhere near the end of next season (a la Ryan Lamb this season) but don't think he'll be Wasps first choice for at least 2 (next and the one after) seasons.

Snickersman, I'm not suggesting starting him in a big match, I'm suggesting trying him in one of the AI, against the PI perhaps. The fact remains that if O'Gara gets injured we are in trouble, and now is the time to find a solution.

thebaz

Good to see Peter Bracken , the Wasps prop , going down under as a replacement for one of the Bests. The guy is meant to have potential, and God knows Ireland need good props . Reports about him are good - hopefully he is a good scrummager !