Teaching "British" Values in School

growler

Recent proposals that "core british values" should be taught in schools in the UK has stirred up a lot of debate about what are these values and whether its truly necessary to formally teach them. "Traditional" Irish values are probably quite similar to those of England, with the possible exception of respect for the "titled".

While Ireland is not (yet) as multicultural as the UK , nor does it have entire suburbs / towns where the dominant culture is not English, it poses an interesting question. With increasing immigration, I suspect that a far more harmonious society would result from the majority sharing a common set of moral / societal values. Naturally immigrants from other parts of the world have differing attitudes to a whole host of things, both large and small: from attitudes towards women to littering. Is it reasonable to assume that the 1st generation of Irish children produced by immigants will absorb traditional (largely christian / anglo / western) values from their environment ? Is it right to attempt to formally influence them towards values that may not be shared by their parents, society, religion ? Plus one has the problem of trying to teach any teenager such a ethereal concept as "values", I recall my civics classes being largely skipped in favour of playing snooker!!

Inevitably much of this comes down to the gulf that exists between the islamic tradition and the mix of secular/ bmw driven/ christian / liberal traditions of Europe/West. Oftentimes, these values clash head on, however the alternative... allowing multiple "traditional sets of values" (am sure there is a word for this), to co-exist seems to lead to alienation, resentment and gives rise to even more social problems.

Does anyone think that we could actually define Irish Values in coherent manner that could be taught ? And would it be of any benefit ?

azezil

I would think that the laws which govern a country are enough to ensure sufficient "unity" among its populous, while immigrants may have different views on how to treat women, for example, they are compelled by the laws which govern the land to adapt.

This idea of teaching "values" in school reeks of control to me, telling people what to think and feel? Freedom of speech and expression are among the very foundation of a Democracy!

The Corinthian

azezil wrote:

This idea of teaching "values" in school reeks of control to me, telling people what to think and feel? Freedom of speech and expression are among the very foundation of a Democracy!

Freedom of speech and expression are not infinite, even in a democracy. There are no absolute rights to such freedoms, as they will inevitably impinge upon the rights and freedoms of others.

growler

azezil wrote:

I would think that the laws which govern a country are enough to ensure sufficient "unity" among its populous, while immigrants may have different views on how to treat women, for example, they are compelled by the laws which govern the land to adapt.

This idea of teaching "values" in school reeks of control to me, telling people what to think and feel? Freedom of speech and expression are among the very foundation of a Democracy!

This is all well and good in theory, but take littering for example, there are laws against it but the reality is that the police have more important matters to deal with, so if it is generally accepted by all and sundry that littering is socially unacceptable then its more likely that people would refrain from litter. Anecdotally I see plenty of parents who don't seem to care if their kids litter, and don't lead by example, if parents are unable to set a proper example then does the state / society not have an obligation to?

Despite laws and western social conventions regarding love / marriage etc. there are still many ethnic groups who practice arranged mariages, not to mention the honour killings etc. I don't think that an Irish society should enourage or endorse such things and that we have a moral obligation to point out that such practices fly in the face of western values.

Laws only punish those who get caught, education could influence people at a more profound level, which is preferble to "compelling" them to adapt imho.

Sand

Inevitably much of this comes down to the gulf that exists between the islamic tradition and the mix of secular/ bmw driven/ christian / liberal traditions of Europe/West. Oftentimes, these values clash head on, however the alternative... allowing multiple "traditional sets of values" (am sure there is a word for this), to co-exist seems to lead to alienation, resentment and gives rise to even more social problems.

Does anyone think that we could actually define Irish Values in coherent manner that could be taught ? And would it be of any benefit ?

We can and should put forward and defend our values, our views on how the individual relates with the state and with others. Theyre nothing to be ashamed of, or embarrassed about and the dangers of hoping competing value systems can exist harmoniously are being highlighted in recent events.

Obviously it would have to be done in very broad terms, British and Irish values arent all that different and neither are that different from what you would find on the continent. British, Irish or whatever is too narrow a definition for something that draws its roots from events and movements across the continents history.

Its difficult to imagine this getting off the ground because people tend to find it difficult/embarrassing to defend western values/culture for fear of being seen not equally value some other value system or culture. If the British do bring it in the PC brigade will savage it until its watered down to the point where kids are getting lessons from the Ayatollahs on how society should be organised. I cant see it getting a much better fate here.

I would think that the laws which govern a country are enough to ensure sufficient "unity" among its populous, while immigrants may have different views on how to treat women, for example, they are compelled by the laws which govern the land to adapt.

Assuming the woman has access to the law, or feels she does. Shafilea Ahmed apparently did not feel she had access to the law and drank bleach in a bid to disrupt her arranged wedding to a suitor from "the old country". She was later murdered and her body found in a river, and the police are still investigating what they believe to be an honour killing. The point is, the law can often be too late. Honour killings arent uncommon in Germany - the attitudes and prejudices behind them need to be confronted and combatted; before any harm comes to the girl, not after.

This idea of teaching "values" in school reeks of control to me, telling people what to think and feel? Freedom of speech and expression are among the very foundation of a Democracy!

Unfortunately that point does need to be explained and advocated, as the Mohammed cartoons controversy demonstrated. Like I said above, the values/morals would have to be defined on a broad level - terms that frame the debate. Like its commonly understood that if you say God does not exist, this does not allow fanatical Christians to murder you.

Zombrex

I think the problem with this is the phrasing of the idea sounds very BNPish, in a kind of "Bringing culture to the savages" way

I don't think it is actually that, though I would avoid using the term "Bristish values".

I think social science and philiosophy based classes that teach thinks like the history and logic behind things like democracy, human rights, civil liberties, freedom of speech, religious tolerance (which Britian has been a large part of) is a very good idea.