Should we fear or trust the Gardaí

Hagar

This was on page 104 of Aertel as at 8:00pm Irish 16/05/06

RTÉ News has learnt that An Garda
Siochána is to conduct an internal
investigation in the circumstances of
the arrest of a man who had taken legal
action against the gardaí.

Pat Rossiter is the father of Brian
Rossiter, who died while in Garda
custody in Clonmel, Co Tippeary.

Mr Rossiter was arrested on a public
order charge last year after he had
indicated his intention to sue An Garda
Siochána for the wrongful death of his
son.

Last week that charge was dismissed in
Clonmel District Court.

The charge has been dismissed so I think it's OK to quote.

There have been numerous threads, many related to motoring, where people have voiced views that the Gardaí are corrupt and abuse their powers. It is not claimed that all Gardaí are corrupt but there is a feeling that those who are not corrupt turn the blind eye to those who are because they fear reporting them to superiors who may themselves be "buddies" of the corrupt Garda concerned. They fear the impact it will have on their careers not to be seen as a "team player". So nothing is said and on it goes.

The term corrupt does not have to be "brown envelope" type corrupt, any abuse of power counts, such as a Garda landlord not fulfilling his duties to his tenants because he knows they won't tangle with a Garda, that sort of thing. The case above shows what happens to people who tangle with a Garda. They know and we know that's how it works.

Is it right that people* should be afraid of members of a force which exists for their protection?

In the light of the quote above can the Irish people* trust the Gardaí?


* I mean of course your average law abiding citizen not your average skanger.

Our man in Havana

I was shocked and amazed to read that article. Smacks of Donegal all over again.

gonk

Bond-007 wrote:

I was shocked and amazed to read that article. Smacks of Donegal all over again.

The most shocking thing about it was Mr Rossiter's allegation that he was deliberately placed in the same cell as his dying son had previously been held in in Clonmel Garda station.

popebenny16

Gardai are people just like you and me. I have a lot of respect for the Gardai, and i do defence work all of the time. i wouldnt do their job for the world and i can imagine that sometimes, if one guard is really pissed off with someone they know if getting away with murder, they will try to bend the rules, they shouldnt but it happens and i have time for that. However if it happend to a client of mine I would do everything to havwe the Guard sacked (sorry, take early retirement)

This present case though is one that I only know about from the media. Cant say the whys or whats. If someone has the excerpt or a link to the local paper's court report it may throw a bit of light on it.

Turner

We dont know why the case was thrown out of court. One reason it might have been the result of poor garda evidence. (many cases thrown out every day due to this)

If Mr Rossiter committed the offences is he above the law and should he not have been arrested.

As for being placed in the same cell this has not been confirmed. I presume the garda station in question might have 2-3 cells so after acting in a manner to warrant an arrest it was highly likely that he could have ended up in the cell in which his son died.

Hagar

Chief--- wrote:

If Mr Rossiter committed the offences is he above the law and should he not have been arrested.

The fact is it was dismissed therefore Mr. Rossiter is and always was innocent.
Does the possibility of poor Garda evidence somehow make the Gardaí shine brighter in this episode?

Trojan911

Hagar wrote:

but there is a feeling that those who are not corrupt turn the blind eye to those who are because they fear reporting them to superiors who may themselves be "buddies" of the corrupt Garda concerned. They fear the impact it will have on their careers not to be seen as a "team player". So nothing is said and on it goes.

Turning a blind eye is just as bad in my opinion.

Hagar wrote:

Is it right that people* should be afraid of members of a force which exists for their protection??

I don't think anyone should fear the Gardaí, however as pointed out in an earlier post it disapoints me to hear that action apparently cannot/will not be taken against wrongdoing Gardaí as it would be a waste of time and effort. This is not what we should expect from our law enforcers. There are, unfortunately, corrupt people in all walks of life and that includes the Gardaí.

Hagar wrote:

In the light of the quote above can the Irish people* trust the Gardaí

I have a lot of respect for the Gardaí and would expect to be treated correctly in any dealings I may have with them. For every one decent person that has been mistreated or unfairly dealt with is a loss to the Gardaí, in my opinion. So, yes would be my answer. Just think, if there was no law enforcement in this or any country, even the criminal faternity would be running scared.


TJ911...

Our man in Havana

Chief--- wrote:

We dont know why the case was thrown out of court. One reason it might have been the result of poor garda evidence. (many cases thrown out every day due to this)

If Mr Rossiter committed the offences is he above the law and should he not have been arrested.

As for being placed in the same cell this has not been confirmed. I presume the garda station in question might have 2-3 cells so after acting in a manner to warrant an arrest it was highly likely that he could have ended up in the cell in which his son died.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-2179656,00.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=182866002&p=y8z8667x8&n=182866762 also

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/76077 read the comments left. :eek:

jetsonx

The more cases of Gardai corruption I am hearing on a weekly basis - the more
the Gardai seem to have a ressonance with Orwellianesque law enforcers.

Think "Animal Farn", esp. the pigs.

I know I would probably still prefer them to their colleagues in Asia, South American or even North American for that matter.

besty

To be honest, a degree of "fear" is by no means a bad thing when it comes to the law enforcement officers of a country. It should translate into a climate of law adherance and respect, but as we know - this is not always the case.

As some have already said, I have a large amount of respect for the Gardaí and would be very slow to tar them all with the same brush on foot of the actions of a minority. For the most part, they do a good job and command the respect they deserve. This should foster trust from the public.

maidhc

Trojan911 wrote:

There are, unfortunately, corrupt people in all walks of life and that includes the Gardaí.

This is true, however the managment structures should be in place to weed these people out. This problem isn't confined to the Gardaí, it applies right across the public service, but the fact the gardaí have more power than your average civil servant or teacher makes it (perhaps) more of a concern.

gonk

Chief--- wrote:

We dont know why the case was thrown out of court.

We don't. But we do know from the court report in the "Irish Times" that:

"Last week at Clonmel District Court Mr Rossiter was cleared of two public order offences in Clonmel on May 15th/16th, 2005, when Judge Terence Finn dismissed the charges against him and went on to express strong criticism of the Garda handling of the matter."

Chief--- wrote:

As for being placed in the same cell this has not been confirmed. I presume the garda station in question might have 2-3 cells so after acting in a manner to warrant an arrest it was highly likely that he could have ended up in the cell in which his son died.

Again, according to the "Irish Times" report yesterday, Mr Rossiter alleges (and of course it is only an allegation at this stage) that this was done deliberately and maliciously to cause him distress.

Hopefully the truth will emerge as a result of the internal Garda investigation and the suit Mr Rossiter is bringing against the Gardaí, but if his allegations are true (and we already know from the carry-on in Donegal that they are certainly not implausible) at the very least the member(s) concerned should be severely disciplined.

Eru

You should all fear me!

Seriously, the offence was commited a long long time ago, it took a year to get too court. As far as I am aware the public interest in his son is not dating back that far however perhaps the Gardai in that area were aware of his intentions, who knows. I certainly wasnt.

In regards the strike out, theres dozens of plausable reasons for this too happen. Garda failed to attend court (which usually results in critisism of the Garda by a judge) or perhaps he was a rookie that made a stupid mistake in evidence and thus the critisism again. Still again, it may be and I stress may be, that the Garda made it personal or indeed, that Mr rossiter made personal comments directed at the Garda alone. We simple dont know enough about it.

In regards the cell, the station is small, 3 cells at the most I would imagine but again I dont know however Im curious how he knows it was the same cell?

As for the case itself, lets remember 3 very important facts:

1. Brian Rossiter was assaulted 2 days prior to being arrested and his own family admit that he had complained of a continious headache for those 2 days.
2. His father was contacted but refused to come and take his son home, the Gardai on duty did not want to keep him in custody but are onligated by law to do so unless a legal guardian will sign for the juvenile.
3. He had been drinking all day and by the witnesses own statements there was a fight in the house he stayed in. He also ran into a carpark and hid, its possible he hit his head during his attempted escape or during the fight as there was "Stuff being thrown around" (Anthony O'Sullivan, the Rossiters key witness).

Im not saying that the Gardai in Clonmel are above reproach but I know I take it personally when Im called a murderer based on a person dying in our cells. I also think people should be wary of Village magazine and Indymedia when researching. The Gardai to them is like Britain to An Poblacht.

Its also important to note that the Gardai has an internal affairs department, a complaints board and soon an ombudsman, theres more within the Gardai to root our wrongdoing then in any other country and indeed, within our own legal system.

Personal I think the Gardai are innocent on this one and the family are desperately trying to blame the Gardai to compensate for their own guilt.

Hagar

besty wrote:

To be honest, a degree of "fear" is by no means a bad thing when it comes to the law enforcement officers of a country. It should translate into a climate of law adherance and respect, but as we know - this is not always the case.

Nor an un-reasonable viewpoint at all. However when the fear is generated not to get adherence to the law of the land but to force submission to the will of an individual it undermines the respect for the entire legal process.

besty wrote:

As some have already said, I have a large amount of respect for the Gardaí and would be very slow to tar them all with the same brush on foot of the actions of a minority.

Let it be said I too have an admiration for the Gardaí and I would not like to see them all tarred with the same brush. It's a small force so it should be possible to weed out the undesireables. The fact that we hear so many accusations but rarely is anything proven or anyone punished for wrongdoing is worrying.
Could every single accusation be malicious or mistaken?
If not does this mean there is no genuine commitment to finding culprits?

Another poster said there is good and bad in all walks of life but can we accept "bad" in the Gardaí?
I would have to say no.

padser

maidhc wrote:

This is true, however the managment structures should be in place to weed these people out. .

Thats it in a nutshell. It all goes back to the previous thread we had about reforms needed in the force. There needs to be serious recruiting of university graduates into the force and they need to reform the service to ensure that the corrupt proportion (be they a minority or a majority - whatever your viewpoint) are found and ............emmmm.......take early retirement (and in an idea world lose all pension rights)

civdef

There's an old saying that you should respect the law, but if you don't you must fear it. It makes a lot of sense. For those individuals who aren't civic minded, only the fear of consequences of law-breaking keeps them honest - the deterrent effect.

As police are the ones responsible for enforcing the laws on the ground, this applies to them too. Law-abiding citizens generally respect police for the job that they do, law-breakers should fear that the police will put them before the courts. (It'd be nice if court sentencing meant law-breakers were afraid of the courts too.)

Police officers should be held to the highest standards of professionalism and integrity as a result of the job they do. If the law-abiding public perceives this to be the case, then they won't fear the police - where the perceptioon is otherwise, trust is eroded.

Law-abiding people shouldn't have to be afraid that if they "cross" a police officer they will end up getting harassed (a common perception in many places).

gonk

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

In regards the strike out, theres dozens of plausable reasons for this too happen.

True, but it's clear from the court report that whatever the reason, the judge was very unhappy with the actions of the Gardaí concerned.

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

In regards the cell, the station is small, 3 cells at the most I would imagine but again I dont know however Im curious how he knows it was the same cell?

I don't know about you, but if my son died in Garda custody, I'd make it my business to see the exact location where he was held, and I doubt I'd have any problem remembering the spot if I was back there again.

layke

To cut a long story short.

Mate of mine came out of a chipper, two guards hopped on him and beat him around the head with battons. The whole thing was about a fight that started in Rathfarnham Village down the road. They assumed he was part of it. In the garda interrogation room later they told him to "sign the confession or your going to Clover Hill".

Fearful and never being involved with the law before he signed it. I know stupid, but he waws quite scared and was intimidated into doing so.

He got away with it in the end because his father went down to the chipper and got the video footage of the gardai hopping on him as he walked out.

I told him to get those disgrace for garda booted out, but he won't pursue it as he himself is a civil servant and he also has a fear of the Guards making his life hell.

Personally this is my second time hearing something like this from a reliable source, once when I was 17, now again at 24.

I see the cops like this, your going to get good and bad.

padser

gonk wrote:

True, but it's clear from the court report that whatever the reason, the judge was very unhappy with the actions of the Gardaí concerned.
.

I had forgotten about that but your right. I remember on the news that the judge was extremely critical of guarda conduct.



Layke; Its the stories like that (no offence but not the ones you read on boards, but from people you know personally) that gives the guards the terrible reputation that they have. What bothers me most about a situation like that it it was more then one guard. That makes you wonder how endemic the problem is.

Hagar

padser wrote:

What bothers me most about a situation like that it it was more then one guard.

Given that a court generally views the evidence of a Garda more credible than the evidence of an ordinary citizen, how many law abiding people would have to be prepared to stand up together in court against two such Gardaí to have them brought to justice? And what are the odds of it ever happening?
I'm seriously wondering how big is the monority of "bad eggs" in the Gardaí.
Could it be as much as 15% perhaps? Or even more?
I wonder what other people think the percentage might be?

Trojan911

maidhc wrote:

This is true, however the managment structures should be in place to weed these people out.

I am looking forward to this Boston lady (name escapes me at the moment) to start the ball rolling...... Open, honest & fair in their dealings with the puiblic


TJ911...

padser

Hagar wrote:

Given that a court generally views the evidence of a Garda more credible than the evidence of an ordinary citizen, how many law abiding people would have to be prepared to stand up together in court against two such Gardaí to have them brought to justice? And what are the odds of it ever happening?
I'm seriously wondering how big is the monority of "bad eggs" in the Gardaí.
Could it be as much as 15% perhaps? Or even more?
I wonder what other people think the percentage might be?

Well i guess it all depends on what you regard as a bad egg.

~someone who uses excessive force when arresting someone as he enjoys beating people up
~someone who plants evidence on someone they 'know' to be guilty
~someone who sticks a gun in someones mouth to get them to sign a confession
~someone who arrests someone for giving him cheek
~someone who turns a blind eye to a partner doing something they shouldnt
~someone who doesnt give a speeding ticket because the hot girl flirted with them
~someone who doesnt give a parking ticket because they realise its their neighbours car
~someone who turns on the siren because they want to get back to the station to watch the match

Its all a question of degrees I reckon.

Everyone would probably agree that the first one is a 'bad egg', most people would probably regard one of the examples on the list as not qualifying. I guess the precentage of bad eggs depends very much on where you draw the line.

besty

Hagar wrote:

It's a small force so it should be possible to weed out the undesireables. The fact that we hear so many accusations but rarely is anything proven or anyone punished for wrongdoing is worrying.
Could every single accusation be malicious or mistaken?

The short answer - an independent ombudsman to investigate complaints

Our man in Havana

~someone who sticks a gun in someones mouth to get them to sign a confession

:eek:

Does that really happen?

civdef

It's currently being alleged in the Morris Tribunal.

alfie

layke wrote:

To cut a long story short.

Mate of mine came out of a chipper, two guards hopped on him and beat him around the head with battons. The whole thing was about a fight that started in Rathfarnham Village down the road. They assumed he was part of it. In the garda interrogation room later they told him to "sign the confession or your going to Clover Hill".

Fearful and never being involved with the law before he signed it. I know stupid, but he waws quite scared and was intimidated into doing so.

He got away with it in the end because his father went down to the chipper and got the video footage of the gardai hopping on him as he walked out.

I told him to get those disgrace for garda booted out, but he won't pursue it as he himself is a civil servant and he also has a fear of the Guards making his life hell.

Personally this is my second time hearing something like this from a reliable source, once when I was 17, now again at 24.

I see the cops like this, your going to get good and bad.

You say he was beatin around the head by 2 guards using batons? Now seriously if a guard beat u round the head with a baton it would leave you with split you open and quite possibly leave you unconscious if this happened surely he had the marks to prove it and could have easily taken a case against the two Gardai

Exon

You shouldn't fear or trust no one IMO!

padser

Bond-007 wrote:

:eek:

Does that really happen?

AS Civdef said its one of the allegations currently being investigated by the Morris tribunal (for those that know the tribunal investigating allegations that a large proportion of the Donegal force attempted to frame an innocent man for a murder, allegedly they shoved guns into people mouths to get them to sign confessions, told wives their husband were cheating on them, planted evidence, absued prisoners, etc etc)

padser

alfie wrote:

You say he was beatin around the head by 2 guards using batons? Now seriously if a guard beat u round the head with a baton it would leave you with split you open and quite possibly leave you unconscious if this happened surely he had the marks to prove it and could have easily taken a case against the two Gardai

Its not that simple at all. Marks prove nothing. You could have fallen, you could have been attacked by someone else. And as previously mentioned a guards word is going to hold sway in court.

Its hard to prove assualt at the best of times, even more difficult if its the guards.

Also he said that his friend decided it would be potentially too much hastle for him if the guards started making his life hell.

alfie

padser wrote:

Its not that simple at all. Marks prove nothing. You could have fallen, you could have been attacked by someone else. And as previously mentioned a guards word is going to hold sway in court.

Its hard to prove assualt at the best of times, even more difficult if its the guards.

Also he said that his friend decided it would be potentially too much hastle for him if the guards started making his life hell.

The mark a baton leaves is very distinct i have to say it sounds like a complete exaggeration gettin beat around the head with a baton the damage that would be done is quite severe.

padser

Hmm possibly. I mean im not saying that that paticular allegation is true, or that all or even the majority are. Im simply saying that its highly unlikely they are all false and getting a conviction against a guard is a very difficult task.


By the way i found this today. Interesting considering what we are discussing

From The Irish Independent

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1617667&issue_id=14074

For those of you who dont have access to unison

The Irish Independent wrote:

''Rogue gardai face new code of conduct


Judge warns of threat to discipline in force



TOUGH new action is to be taken against rogue gardai after a warning that internal discipline in the force is being severely undermined.

The crackdown was announced yesterday after Mr Justice Frederick Morris claimed the corruption and misbehaviour he uncovered in the Donegal division was not an isolated case.

The Morris tribunal found internal discipline in the force throughout the country had to be overhauled.

And it said that organised insubordination on a mass scale by gardai could turn out to be a disaster.

The comments follow threats by the Garda Representative Association and the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors that they would not co-operate with the introduction of the new Garda Reserve.

Justice Morris's remarks are contained in an appendix to one of three reports issued by the tribunal to Justice Minister Michael McDowell.

New powers have already been granted to Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy to dismiss members whose conduct is deemed to undermine public confidence in the force.

Other measures in the pipeline include:

* A total revamp of disciplinary regulations which are simpler and more straightforward and these are due to be published shortly by the minister and approved by the Oireachtas by the summer break;

* The introduction of a whistleblower's charter to allow gardai or others to report confidentially on allegations of corruption and malpractice;

* New three-person garda promotion boards which will each include two civilians and promotion regulations to be published within six weeks;

* Establishing a small advisory group to work with the minister and commissioner tackling management and leadership development.

The Morris comments about mass insubordination have led to a hardening of the Government view that threats of non co-operation with the reserve cannot be tolerated and are regarded by ministers as a "non-runner".

Mr McDowell said yesterday that Mr Justice Morris took the view that the disciplinary character of the force was completely at risk and to restore morale, a workable disciplinary regime had to be imposed urgently.

He said the great majority of gardai were people wedded to high standards and determined to serve the country well.

But he agreed with Mr Justice Morris that a small minority could not be allowed to preach insubordination on a mass scale and he also accepted that it could lead to a disaster.

Explaining the changes in promotion boards, he said suggestions had been made that some promotions were not always secured by fair means and it was very important that those claims should be shown to be demonstrably untrue.


New powers have already been granted to Garda Commissioner Noel Conroy to dismiss members whose conduct is deemed to undermine public confidence in the force.


A senior security source said last night the new measures meant a minority of rogue gardai would not be allowed to abuse disciplinary procedures to create trouble in the force.

The Garda Representative Association said it was concerned at the use of a Mafia-style phrase, "disposing of members" who were causing real problems in the force.
But it expected greater consultation on the new regulations than had been granted to it on the reserve proposals, a spokesman said.

Meanwhile, the minister will be applying to the High Court on Monday for a direction on whether he can publish all of the details contained in Justice Morris's three reports.''

In other words after a major inquiry a senior judge feels that the is big corruption problems in the Guards, and all the Garda Representitive Assocaition does is quibble over the wording used by the report for members found to be 'causing real problems within the force'.

Trojan911

padser wrote:

and all the Garda Representitive Assocaition does is quibble over the wording used by the report for members found to be 'causing real problems within the force'.

Interesting link and about time too. The GRA should stop their trivial quibbling and concentrate on serious matters. What surprised me was when the GRA had a recent meeting in Cork with members was the opening of the meeting which comprised of a song which showed a total disregard for respect to the Minister for Justice and the laughter and clapping that followed. It smacked of rudeness and childish behaviour. This is from a body that is supposed to be professional and diplomatic.


TJ911...

padser

Trojan911 wrote:

........... the GRA .........a body that is supposed to be professional and diplomatic............

I actually laughed out load.