Correlation between IQ scores and Enneagram Personality Types?!

Burning Eclipse

First post in Psychology Forum... Good to have one

I've been aware of the enneagram and the theory behind it (to some extent at least) for about the last 6/7 years, even had the pleasure of being instructed in it by an excellent clinical psychologist, who incidently is a member of Mensa. It's always fascinated me and I'd even say I'm guilty of thinking... 'Oh, what a typical 9 (insert any number) reaction or thing to say'

Recently I've been thinking alot about the Correlation between IQ scores and the Enneagram. I know IQ can be a touchy, not to mention tricky subject in psychoanalysis terms but I was wondering what ye're take is on this. It's not fair to say 5's would probably have a higher distribution and 7's would have lower. Personally I would imagine it being fairly evenly spread across the board, maybe some a little above mean, some a little below. I've searched for information but to no avail...

Thanks in advance.
Mike.

nualahyland

Hiya I have known about the enneagram also for some time but keep it to myself. Each type has their own intelligence in keeping with their education and life experience. I dont think you can assume a type 5 will be smarter than a type 7 (although they would probably think they are). Every type is unique and has their own special qualities and IQ. To judge people on their IQ is meaningless anyway as life experience and how they see things is what matters.
Do you know your type.

Sardonicat

Do you rely entirely on the Enneagam to typify a person? what I mean by this is, how do you know that someone's personaility truly corresponds to the test result? Surely, there is no way of proving this, one way or another?

nualahyland

From learning the enneagram now for over ten years, I personally can pick up points in a conversation with a person what type they are.
We all have different ways of looking and relating in the world and when you know the enneagram you will spot that in people. For e.g. Type one can be preoccupied with tideness and perfection, type eight is always fighting for some injustice (small or big). I think if a type could find the job that suits them in line with their type their life would be bliss.
I wish more people knew about it as it really is a hidden gem.
Do you know your type

Sardonicat

nualahyland wrote: »

From learning the enneagram now for over ten years, I personally can pick up points in a conversation with a person what type they are.
We all have different ways of looking and relating in the world and when you know the enneagram you will spot that in people. For e.g. Type one can be preoccupied with tideness and perfection, type eight is always fighting for some injustice (small or big). I think if a type could find the job that suits them in line with their type their life would be bliss.
I wish more people knew about it as it really is a hidden gem.
Do you know your type

Unless they have done an enneagram which proves them to be the type you guessed them to be, how do you know for certain?

No, I do not know "my type". I am extremely sceptical and deeply suspicious of any attempt to typify people like this. Your answer above just copper fastens my sceptcism.

nualahyland

Not everyone is going to be aware of the enneagram and most never will be.

But it is an excellent tool to know and use especially if you work with different types of people. It dates back to greek times. The Jesuits priests also teach it.
Essentially it is a sophisticated tool for self-discovery, conversion and spiritual growth. It is not about typing people. I learnt it following a sort of break down and it helped me so much. It can do wonders for your self esteem to know why you act the way you do.
It suggests that there are nine basic personality styles or types, based on nine differing compulsive energies. You also are either a heart,head or gut person. It is very complex and took me 3 years to find which type I was. It wasn't a matter of just guessing. It is a very deep tool to uncover and I have just purchased another book on amazon to read more about it. It is never ending.

JuliusCaesar

As a psychologist, may I direct everyone's attention to here. It is not in use by any reputable psychologists AFAIK and I can find no scholarly articles about it whatsoever.

Gibs

The Enneagram is a non-scientific method for describing personality that doesn't have any legitimacy in terms of personality research. No mainstream psychologist or personality researcher would entertain the enneagram other than as a historical curiosity. It's about as relevant as reading tea-leaves or studying phrenology.

There are many potentially useful and scientifically credible ways of examining personality. The main contender in recent decades is Costa and McCrae's five-factor model of personality. There are also many other models, with varying degrees of evidence supporting them. Empirically derived tools like the NEO-PI-R or the MCMI-II are often used to delineate personality characteristics.

From the point of view of psychology, it's probably more interesting to look at the enneagram as an example of the Forer effect. Forer was a psychologist who in the 1940's did an experiment where he did a "personality" test on students. He gave the students a questionnaire and then gave each of them the results, in the form of a paragraph with their personality characteristics described, and asked them to score how accurate they thought the results were on a scale of 0 to 5. The average accuracy rating was 4.2 and this result has been replicated using his method and questionnaire (with the very same level of accuracy rating) many times since.

The only problem with this apparently impressive outcome is that Forer actually completely ignored the answers that the students gave on the questionniare and instead he gave exactly the same paragraph of "results" to everyone who took the test. The paragraph was developed by using horoscopes available in the local newspaper.

The enneagram is essentially a more elaborate version of the very same effect, with nine paragraphs that people can fit themselves into instead of one. During replications of the Forer effect, it was found that the accuracy rating people gave to the personality description they got depended on three things - 1. The person should believe that the rating applied to him/her only 2.The person should believe in the authority of the personality evaluator and 3. The analysis should list mainly positive traits, with some (acceptable) negative traits.

Here's the paragraph that Forer gave his students. See what accuracy rating you would give to it in terms of describing you

You have a great need for other people to like and admire you. You have a tendency to be critical of yourself. You have a great deal of unused capacity which you have not turned to your advantage. While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them. Disciplined and self-controlled outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You pride yourself as an independent thinker and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof. You have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable, sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be pretty unrealistic. Security is one of your major goals in life.

nualahyland

From learning and following the enneagram for a long time I dont know how you can be sceptical about it. It is an excellent tool. If you have ever been to a enneagram type meeting you would see how real it is. We are often grouped into our types and as a type 9 or 3 or 6 we all have so much in common, it is fascinating.
Just because some researcher says and quotes this and that does not make him or her right.
Alot of enneagram 5's are on the fence when it comes to the enneagram and you could be one of them so look more into that type.

Trust me it is for real and it can serve you well in life.

JuliusCaesar

nualahyland wrote: »

Just because some researcher says and quotes this and that does not make him or her right.
Alot of enneagram 5's are on the fence when it comes to the enneagram and you could be one of them so look more into that type.

Trust me it is for real and it can serve you well in life.

:rolleyes:
This is the PSYCHOLOGY forum. It is for discussion of psychological and behavioural science matters. It is not for name-calling (especially if the names are made up!)

nualahyland

Everyone in one way or another is a psychologist of all they see and do in their life. Dont think you have a monopoly on it. I can have my opinion on things and I will express them.

If you think it is name calling then you are not reading it right. You need to delve deeper into yourself to see what is rattling your cage with my comments. Maybe have a better look at the enneagram!!

Odysseus

nualahyland wrote: »

Everyone in one way or another is a psychologist of all they see and do in their life. Dont think you have a monopoly on it. I can have my opinion on things and I will express them.

If you think it is name calling then you are not reading it right. You need to delve deeper into yourself to see what is rattling your cage with my comments. Maybe have a better look at the enneagram!!

Nualahyland, take this as a warning, read the charter with JC comments in mind. I am finding it hard not to finf the comment to delve depper into herself as person abuse. It stops now next time it will be a ban.

No everybody is not a psychologist or psychotherapist, people who use those terms are trained professionally over a long period of time. Personally and professionally I don't think this topic belongs here, but as it borders psych issues in some peoples eyes I let it go.

You are of course entitle to your opinion, but this is the psych forum and it appears that most psychs here have not time for it. The discussion can carry on be it will be civil and it will related to psychology.

Are we clear?

carolgal

Lot of bullying going on here, Nualahyland. I agree with you about the enneagram, very useful, wise and credible tool. Too simple maybe for scientific boffins but most art is. I'm a senior psychotherapist and use it all the time.

I found this part of the site by accident but wouldn't really want to engage with the egos threatening and ranting on it.

I wish you the best of luck with your exploration of the Enneagram in the future.

Odysseus

carolgal wrote: »

Lot of bullying going on here, Nualahyland. I agree with you about the enneagram, very useful, wise and credible tool. Too simple maybe for scientific boffins but most art is. I'm a senior psychotherapist and use it all the time.

I found this part of the site by accident but wouldn't really want to engage with the egos threatening and ranting on it.

I wish you the best of luck with your exploration of the Enneagram in the future.

You are of course entitled to your opinion, as a psychotherapist senior or not you are welcome here, all people with an interest in psychotherapeutic issues are.

I kept this thread open to allow a discussion on this topic, however, if you want to just question posters egos, my suggestion would be jog on. So add to the thread on the topic, but firstly read the charter it is on the main page and engage with us as the clininian you claim to be.

Gibs

carolgal wrote: »

Lot of bullying going on here, Nualahyland. I agree with you about the enneagram, very useful, wise and credible tool. Too simple maybe for scientific boffins but most art is. I'm a senior psychotherapist and use it all the time.

I found this part of the site by accident but wouldn't really want to engage with the egos threatening and ranting on it.

I wish you the best of luck with your exploration of the Enneagram in the future.

On the contrary, I think throwing words like "bullying" and "threatening" into the mix just because people disagree with an opinion is a very poor debating strategy and only serves to weaken the position that you take. Nobody criticised Nualahyland personally, nor did they say that you were not allowed to have a personal opinion. The only person who has engaged in name-calling here is Nualahyland and his/her very recently registered supporter, Carolgal.

The moderators here are very fair and generally allow debate to proceed unhindered except when it veers away from psychology and into pseudoscience, or when it involves people discussing personal problems and advice seeking, or, somewhat ironically given the charge you have laid, when it turns towards personal criticism. The psychology forum is full of people with strong opinions and debate is often quite robust, but it is invariably respectful and rarely if ever descends to the level of personal attacks.

Most contributors to the psychology forum are open to learning and encountering new information and being persuaded by good, reasoned argument or good quality, valid and reliable research. They would also, imho, be generally fairly open-minded, thoughtful individuals. However, while vigorous debate is always appreciated, the subject matter herein is psychology, which is not some kind of catch-all area that can accommodate every possible approach used to describe aspects of humanity. Psychology as a subject that is studied, taught and practiced by professionals is a behavioural science. It is studied in a particular way, using scientific methods and measurements, and proposes and develops theories using evidence from biology, medicine, psychological experiments and careful observation. It also proceeds in a reasonably methodical way and theories either gain acceptance or are rejected based on the use of a rational approach.

The enneagram does not meet those criteria and, while you may find it personally valid, it is not taught by any academic psychology courses that I am aware of as being a legitimate way of measuring, describing or explaining personality. You are of course entitled to have strong opinions about the usefulness of the enneagram or any other approach to describing people's behaviours or characteristics, but just because you believe in it and say that you find it useful, credible and wise, that doesn't make it psychology, nor does it make it valid in the sense of being scientifically demonstrable.

Based on your joining date and the number of posts you have made, it would appear that you are relatively new to this particular forum. I would recommend reading the charter in order to get a better sense of the type of discussions here.

Odysseus

Gibs wrote: »

On the contrary, I think throwing words like "bullying" and "threatening" into the mix just because people disagree with an opinion is a very poor debating strategy and only serves to weaken the position that you take. Nobody criticised Nualahyland personally, nor did they say that you were not allowed to have a personal opinion. The only person who has engaged in name-calling here is Nualahyland and his/her very recently registered supporter, Carolgal.

The moderators here are very fair and generally allow debate to proceed unhindered except when it veers away from psychology and into pseudoscience, or when it involves people discussing personal problems and advice seeking, or, somewhat ironically given the charge you have laid, when it turns towards personal criticism. The psychology forum is full of people with strong opinions and debate is often quite robust, but it is invariably respectful and rarely if ever descends to the level of personal attacks.

Most contributors to the psychology forum are open to learning and encountering new information and being persuaded by good, reasoned argument or good quality, valid and reliable research. They would also, imho, be generally fairly open-minded, thoughtful individuals. However, while vigorous debate is always appreciated, the subject matter herein is psychology, which is not some kind of catch-all area that can accommodate every possible approach used to describe aspects of humanity. Psychology as a subject that is studied, taught and practiced by professionals is a behavioural science. It is studied in a particular way, using scientific methods and measurements, and proposes and develops theories using evidence from biology, medicine, psychological experiments and careful observation. It also proceeds in a reasonably methodical way and theories either gain acceptance or are rejected based on the use of a rational approach.

The enneagram does not meet those criteria and, while you may find it personally valid, it is not taught by any academic psychology courses that I am aware of as being a legitimate way of measuring, describing or explaining personality. You are of course entitled to have strong opinions about the usefulness of the enneagram or any other approach to describing people's behaviours or characteristics, but just because you believe in it and say that you find it useful, credible and wise, that doesn't make it psychology, nor does it make it valid in the sense of being scientifically demonstrable.

Based on your joining date and the number of posts you have made, it would appear that you are relatively new to this particular forum. I would recommend reading the charter in order to get a better sense of the type of discussions here.

Excellent post Gibs, you articulated it much better than I did. As you know I'm only a mod here a few weeks, I would not mod another forum, I took this one on because most posters are repectful, even when we have our differences.

carolgal

Just needs Julius now 'all Hail' to add to the mix. Three Christmas Puddins, dense and well, puddinny.

Sorry guys, busy and have a life. Cheers

Sardonicat

Sardonicat wrote: »

Do you rely entirely on the Enneagam to typify a person? what I mean by this is, how do you know that someone's personaility truly corresponds to the test result? Surely, there is no way of proving this, one way or another?

Carolgal, as a practitioner, would you be able to anwser my initial question above? I ask respectfully and do so because what I am interested in knowing is do you rely entirely on the Enneagram or do you also base your opinion as to whether or not someone has "personality type * on observation of a client in addition to the Enneagram findings? If so, how long would you need to keep an open mind on this before you are satisified that the client truly has a personality that conforms to the Enneagram result?

Respectfully

Sardonicat

Odysseus

carolgal wrote: »

Just needs Julius now 'all Hail' to add to the mix. Three Christmas Puddins, dense and well, puddinny.

Sorry guys, busy and have a life. Cheers

I gave you the chance to engage as a professional, I will not have personal abuse on this forum. Sadly you are the first person I have had to ban.

I will edit this post on the lenght of the ban, when I work out how to do it. Feel free to PM me about.

You have been banned for two weeks, you are welcome back after as long as you engage respectfully

nualahyland

Thank you Carolgal for your words of support. I did not think I was bullying either, just stating my views on the enneagram but some people can be overly sensitive.
I do agree with you that it is an excellent tool and I would love to know do you know much more about it as I am not getting much feedback from the others.
Just because it is not taught by any academic psychology course does not mean it is not legitimate, how come so many people get so much out of it all over the world.
I have studied it in Belfast and in London and my interest has recommenced again with it after some time. I am fascinated how each type strives for their way in life so differently. My husband is a type nine and he embodies it so well. It can open your eyes to the differences in people and make you understand them more. I will continue to delve into it for as long as my interest allows.

Gibs

carolgal wrote: »

Just needs Julius now 'all Hail' to add to the mix. Three Christmas Puddins, dense and well, puddinny.

Sorry guys, busy and have a life. Cheers

Q. E. D.

ncw1625

1s are so high in IQ because of the prioritising of values over abstract logic. This is what truly gifted people do and it is such a beautiful quality. It is sacrificial, in fact, because the abstract logic increases their self esteem, and yet they put this down to do the right thing.