Breach of the Peace

Victor

I spotted a guy on the roof of a local school on Saturday night chucking stones, but I couldn't see what he was throwing them at. My phone battery was on its last legs so I couldn't phone the local Garda station. It just so happened that inside 2 minutes later a Garda passed on foot patrol.

He whipped of his hat and went to take a closer look as we weren't quite sure what roof he was on and how to get there. I went around the back of the school to see if I could see anything better.

I heard some glass break and then the alarm went off followed by two lads, including the guy on the roof hopping over the wall and legging it. I just pretended to be a passer-by walking down the road, but identified the two guys when the garda came around.

So, he calls for support and the local undercover patrol (a Fiat Punto!) shows up. So the lads are put in the back of the car and the undercover guy asks the first Garda what the charge is.

Now obviously there was trespass* and criminal damage (and being really stupid ), but we hadn't actually seen the criminal damage, merely heard it (the first Garda went back to inspect afterwards).

So I suggested they do them for Breach of the Peace until such time as the criminal damage could be confirmed. The Garda smiled knowingly and drove off.

So is stone throwing a Breach of the Peace? Throwing them at someone would be. Skimming stones on a pond wouldn't. This is somewhere in between. I did not feel threatened, but I did feel offended and angry / anxious at the behavior.


* Can you arrest for trepass if there is no complaint from the owner / occupier?

seamus

Pure speculation on my part, but seeing as the Gardai are "Guardians of the Peace", then "breach of the peace" would assumingly be any situation where a person's behaviour required the intervention of the Gardai to protect persons or property.

civdef

In England & Wales, Breach of the Peace is an offence at common law, with a correspondingly fuzzy definition / application that has been used/misused in all sorts of ways, but still proves very useful in day to day policing.

It's mentioned in the Public Order Act here, iirc, so is it still a common law offence in Ireland?

Turner

Victor wrote:

So is stone throwing a Breach of the Peace? Throwing them at someone would be. Skimming stones on a pond wouldn't. This is somewhere in between. I did not feel threatened, but I did feel offended and angry / anxious at the behavior.


* Can you arrest for trepass if there is no complaint from the owner / occupier?

Stone throwing a breach of the peace.?? well i wouldnt consider it so. But the Gardai can arrest if they suspect a breach of the peace may occur. You could have jumped the fence and kicked yer mans arse which would be a breach of the peace. They arrested him thus preventing any breach of the peace which might occur.

Arrests for breach of the peace mostly occur in private dwellings during domestics. If you are in your house you cannot be arrested for using threatening or abusive behaviour or for being intoxicated. The gardai can arrest for breaching the peace inside a private dwelling.

Generally alot of Gardai in this instance will ask the person to accompany them or basically drag the person out onto the street outside (a public place) and make the arrest there.



As for throwing a stone at somebody (and hitting them) it would be assault. Power of arrest only for a section 3 assault though if blood was drawn or injury caused.

Tresspassing is covered under the public order act and a power of arrest is there.

popebenny16

Under the POA a breach of the peace is exactly what it says on the tin and its down to the guards opinion. If the guys were found inside then its Burgarly and also Criminal Damage. They may also have failed to obey the directions of a guard ("I said STOP ys bas....ds") and if they have a pint or tow they may have been intoxicated in public as well. in the District Court in my opinion about 90% of criminal charges/summones are POA.

If they lads have form they might be looking at a stretch. If not, they could get Probation Act Section 1 (1) or a fine, perhaps coupled with a criminal compenssation order and/or community service.

vasch_ro

actually strictly speaking what most Gardai refer to as a breach of the peace is actually Section 6 of the Public Order Act: Threatening Abusive or Insulting behaviour in a public place , this has superseded the the old common law offence of breach of the peace. It does refer to these things as being a breach of the peace in the definition.
Generally a proof required for court is that the place is indeed a public place as defined under the act,
Section 8 of the Criminal Justice Public Order Act also refers to the term breach of the peace.


I think in this case Criminal Damage and Tresspass with intent to commit an offence were the main offences disclosed, I just also like to complement you on your civic mindness !
!:)
CRIMINAL JUSTICE (PUBLIC ORDER) ACT 1994 - SECT 3
"public place" includes—

( a ) any highway,

( b ) any outdoor area to which at the material time members of the public
have or are permitted to have access, whether as of right or as a trespasser
or otherwise, and which is used for public recreational purposes,

( c ) any cemetery or churchyard,

( d ) any premises or other place to which at the material time members of the
public have or are permitted to have access, whether as of right or by express
or implied permission, or whether on payment or otherwise, and

( e ) any train, vessel or vehicle used for the carriage of persons for
reward.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE (PUBLIC ORDER) ACT 1994 - SECT 6

Threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour in public place.

6.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person in a public place to use or
engage in any threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent
to provoke a breach of the peace or being reckless as to whether a breach of
the peace may be occasioned.

(2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on
summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £500 or to imprisonment for a term
not exceeding 3 months or to both.

Mr_Roger_Bongos

Was it a national school or a private one? I'd say they could get them on trespass straight away if national, whereas private would need the owner to press charges.

Eru

You were offended and a member of the public so S6 POA is a holding charge with criminal damage and tresspass to possible follow.

You dont need a complaint to arrest for tresspass but you do need the owner for court.

Victor

Chief--- wrote:

Stone throwing a breach of the peace.?? well i wouldnt consider it so. But the Gardai can arrest if they suspect a breach of the peace may occur. You could have jumped the fence and kicked yer mans arse which would be a breach of the peace.

Hardly, (a) I'm too fat (b) I've been "told" to leave petty criminals alone I'm sure part of me would have liked to abuse him, I know I'm not allowed.

Generally alot of Gardai in this instance will ask the person to accompany them

Does this have legal standing?

or basically drag the person out onto the street

True, but naughty.

As for throwing a stone at somebody (and hitting them) it would be assault. Power of arrest only for a section 3 assault though if blood was drawn or injury caused.

It would have been unreasonable to assume they were throwing stones at a person (but an animal?) in a school on a Saturday night.

Tresspassing is covered under the public order act and a power of arrest is there.

Fair enough.

popebenny16 wrote:

Under the POA a breach of the peace is exactly what it says on the tin and its down to the guards opinion. If the guys were found inside then its Burgarly

One on the roof, one presumably in the yard (maybe they were throwing stones at each other? )

and also Criminal Damage.

Well at the point of arrest, only I had heard a window breaking, neither I nor the garda had seen actual damage.

They may also have failed to obey the directions of a guard ("I said STOP ys bas....ds")

:D:D

and if they have a pint or tow they may have been intoxicated in public as well.

No, alcohol unlikely. They were somewhere 16-19, but quite sober (you need to be to climb on a roof and 2m+ gate ).

If they lads have form they might be looking at a stretch. If not, they could get Probation Act Section 1 (1) or a fine, perhaps coupled with a criminal compenssation order and/or community service.

The type who have or will get form, but who knows. One was "smart" enough to remove his sweater, but assumed he was only under observation from the garda.

vasch_ro wrote:

actually strictly speaking what most Gardai refer to as a breach of the peace is actually Section 6 of the Public Order Act: Threatening Abusive or Insulting behaviour in a public place , this has superseded the the old common law offence of breach of the peace. It does refer to these things as being a breach of the peace in the definition.
Generally a proof required for court is that the place is indeed a public place as defined under the act,
Section 8 of the Criminal Justice Public Order Act also refers to the term breach of the peace.

But is threatening an inaminate object (or indeed an animal) an offence. I suppose if one were on a public road, throwing stones at an office building with a fair portion of glass, one must be guilty of something.

vasch_ro wrote:

I think in this case Criminal Damage and Tresspass with intent to commit an offence were the main offences disclosed, I just also like to complement you on your civic mindness !

the garda said the same, but all I could think of was Karlitosway1978 would be more convinced than ever that I'm a vigilantee.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE (PUBLIC ORDER) ACT 1994 - SECT 3
"public place" includes— ( b ) any outdoor area to which at the material time members of the public have or are permitted to have access, whether as of right or as a trespasser or otherwise, and which is used for public recreational purposes,

Does this cover a cloased school?

CRIMINAL JUSTICE (PUBLIC ORDER) ACT 1994 - SECT 6
Threatening, abusive or insulting behaviour in public place.
6.—(1) It shall be an offence for any person in a public place to use or engage in any threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour with intent to provoke a breach of the peace or being reckless as to whether a breach of the peace may be occasioned.

Words weren't used, no intent to provoke a breach of the peace. Recklessness .... ehhhhnnn, not sure.

Victor

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote:

Was it a national school or a private one?

There's a bunch of separate schools together, I believe they are all publicly owned in some fashion.

I'd say they could get them on trespass straight away if national, whereas private would need the owner to press charges.

Is there a practical difference?

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

You were offended and a member of the public so S6 POA is a holding charge with criminal damage and tresspass to possible follow.

Fair enough. I'm sorry for being a vigilantee.

You dont need a complaint to arrest for tresspass but you do need the owner for court.

Who's to say who is or isn't a trespasser. OK, behavior and circumstances were highly indicative in this case, but what about Anto and Deco in a factory yard on a Saturday night, claiming they own it.

Exon

lol, you wouldn't last long where i'm from!

Victor

Exon wrote:

lol, you wouldn't last long where i'm from!

Meaning?

aindriu80

does a breach of the peace make you a criminal with a criminal record ?