Dealers playing in own clubs?

Lplated

Just wondering if people have a view on dealers playing tournies in the club they work in on their 'off nights'. AFAIK this is not allowed in the UK.

My (rather inexperienced) view is that they are at an advantage in that they are more likely to be very familiar with player's playing styles, having had the opportunity to observe over time while dealing.

tribulus

But surely any regulars in the club would also have time too observe styles-by playing the other people not just observing, so i wouldn't see too much of a problem.

ollyk1

Lplated wrote:

Just wondering if people have a view on dealers playing tournies in the club they work in on their 'off nights'. AFAIK this is not allowed in the UK.

My (rather inexperienced) view is that they are at an advantage in that they are more likely to be very familiar with player's playing styles, having had the opportunity to observe over time while dealing.

Two comments:

In general the dealers are forbidden to play in other clubs by the management of the club they work in. I don't think its right but it is the case. I'd prefer to have someone who plays poker dealing to me as they are invariable much better at seeing things from the players point of view and this helps a lot during a game.

They probably are at an advantage as is anyone who plays in a particular club quite often, but poker isn't a game thats fair in terms of peoples experience and there are as many poor poker players who are dealers as there are good ones. Being a dealer and playing in the same club has disadvantages too which I won't list as I like to take advantage of them occasionally

ArmaniJeanss

ollyk1 wrote:

Two comments:

In general the dealers are forbidden to play in other clubs by the management of the club they work in. I don't think its right but it is the case.

Any idea of the reasoning behind this restriction. I know barpeople/betting-shop employees who are forbidden from drinking/betting in their own place of work, but have total freedom to go elsewhere. Dealer seems a similar sort of employment.

Marq

If the staff of one club are allowed to play in that club but are seen playing elsewhere, it gives a bad impression of the club in question. this at least, is the reason behind staff not being allowed to play in other clubs.

NickyOD

In Limerick the dealers aren't allowed to play in the cash games (I don't play either) but we do play in the tournaments. This is more to do with the fact that staff have access to chips and also because the club has a responsibility to the staff and don't want them losing their wages. To be honest I wouldn't feel right sitting into our cash game anyway as it may mean winning moeny from my punters and if a ruling is called for and given in my favour it might appear bias. I think when it comes to tournaments though its an entirely different atmosphere to the cash game and since there's a fixed a mount of money involved I woulnd't have a problem with a cardroom's staff playing.

DeVore

Doesnt bother me tbh. I think its really unfair to dictate to a worker what they can and cant do in their offtime too. If I´m a dealer, I work for you for a fair wage. I´m not your slave!

As a player I dont mind playing against dealers so long as the rules are fairly applied and there is no favouritism and I´m familiar with the rules enough to feel comfortable that I´d spot it. As for them being good players, there are plenty of good players out there. Like any table if I feel its too tough, I´ll leave.

DeV.

DeVore

To comment on Nickys post, I dont think the TD or floor manager should play in either, in that case they are management and should be considering the overall welfare of the club. Theres no upside for them, if they lose.. they lose, if they win, they risk the punter being pissed off with them and not coming back.

DeV.

Dub13

DeVore wrote:

Doesnt bother me tbh. I think its really unfair to dictate to a worker what they can and cant do in their offtime too.

I would be of the opinion that it is illegal.

NickyOD

DeVore wrote:

Doesnt bother me tbh. I think its really unfair to dictate to a worker what they can and cant do in their offtime too. If I´m a dealer, I work for you for a fair wage. I´m not your slave!
DeV.

I can understand this but what happens when a member of staff starts losing a lot of money int he club he works in. I have seen this and I think the club has a responsibility to protect its staff. I think it would reflect very poorly on me if I knew I was giving a dealer his wages only for him to sit down and lose them in the cash game every week.

ntlbell

NickyOD wrote:

I can understand this but what happens when a member of staff starts losing a lot of money int he club he works in. I have seen this and I think the club has a responsibility to protect its staff. I think it would reflect very poorly on me if I knew I was giving a dealer his wages only for him to sit down and lose them in the cash game every week.

You're the dealers boss, not his GA sponsor, what he does with his wages has really nothing to do with the club imo

kincsem

Lplated wrote:

Just wondering if people have a view on dealers playing tournies in the club they work in on their 'off nights'. AFAIK this is not allowed in the UK.

My (rather inexperienced) view is that they are at an advantage in that they are more likely to be very familiar with player's playing styles, having had the opportunity to observe over time while dealing.

We didn't buy stamps in the GPO in 1916 just so we could do what they do on the mainland. :rolleyes:

Marq

Hilarious post Sean.

Nicky, NTLBell is right, you pay their wages, if they want to play they'll play somewhere.

jacQues

My four ha'pennies:

Staff should never be allowed to play house games (at their workplace).
Staff should, however, be allowed to play non-house games.

jacQues

DeVore

NickyOD wrote:

I can understand this but what happens when a member of staff starts losing a lot of money int he club he works in. I have seen this and I think the club has a responsibility to protect its staff.

But not protect the public? You´re on thin ice there Nicky

His money, his life. Boss, not mother.

DeV.

opr

jacQues wrote:

My four ha'pennies:

Staff should never be allowed to play house games (at their workplace).
Staff should, however, be allowed to play non-house games.

jacQues

I think most staff are not stupid enough to play the house games. Wonder why

ligger

1st time I played in Vegas a guy who had been dealing 20mins earlier sat down at my table. He was on his lunchbreak... Make you regret tipping a dealer who then uses it against you.

Waylander

I do not think dealers should be allowed to play in the club they work in. The main reason for this is that theya re bound to have good freinds among the other dealing staff, and if they are getting involved in big pots two dealers, one working one playing, may be tempted to stack the deck. I think by not allowing them to play in the club it limits opportunitys like this.

bohsman

Waylander wrote:

I do not think dealers should be allowed to play in the club they work in. The main reason for this is that theya re bound to have good freinds among the other dealing staff, and if they are getting involved in big pots two dealers, one working one playing, may be tempted to stack the deck. I think by not allowing them to play in the club it limits opportunitys like this.

This is why dealers cut the deck with one hand. Just as likely for a dealer to have good friends among non playing staff

JuliusFranco

Waylander wrote:

I do not think dealers should be allowed to play in the club they work in. The main reason for this is that theya re bound to have good freinds among the other dealing staff, and if they are getting involved in big pots two dealers, one working one playing, may be tempted to stack the deck. I think by not allowing them to play in the club it limits opportunitys like this.

this kinda hysterical nonsence gives poker a bad name

Waylander

Yeah Oscar, I know that and I am not trying to cast aspersions on the dealer population. But the temptation may be there, and I think it can easily be removed so why not remove it. It is not like there is only one club in Dublin so they would have nowhere else to play. I don't really have a strong opinion on it one way or the other though. As for cutting the deck, I have seen people cut the deck 5 times and show a royal flush with the cuts (actually he missed the J by one card, but got it close enough), after he had shuffled the deck. It is a security measure but is not infallible.

ollyk1

Their are two main reasons for dealers not playing in other clubs.

1. If I see a dealer in another club as a paying punter I may feel why should I tip/pay reg in his club if he doesn't think its good enough to play in himself? I'd be happy to see a dealer sit down and play a cash game or tournie with the tips I'd contributed towards as my money is back in poker circulation and I have a chance to win it back.

2. The managment in various clubs don't like each other and are in competition with each other (and generally have history) so they don't want to be "giving" business to the opposition.

Neither is a good enough reason imho.

I agree with Dev if a guy wants to blow his weeks wages in the club where he works then its his decision.

Now in response to Waylanders comments if I'm ever in a club where a dealer can stack the deck to his dealer mate or to an "unknown" stranger (which is the more likely way you'd do it if you were going to because everyone knows the dealers and their mates in the clubs and is watching) and I suspect anything is amiss I'll raise the issue with management and if its not dealt with or explained to my satisfaction I'll leave.

I have never had a problem with any club I've frequented of this nature and I think scaremongering is wrong unless you have evidence or witnessed something to the contrary and if you did tell us what you did.

Waylander

I am not scaremongering Olly, I have not made any accusations. I have said that it is a possibility, and that the temptation is there. This is FACT, so how you can consider it scaremongering I do not know.

5starpool

With the process used to shuffle, i.e the wash, the riffles, the slicing (or whatever taking a few from the middle and putting it on top is called) and then the cut, surely it can't be possible to fix this? If it is then hats off to Mr(s) Dealer (wo)man.

amp

Waylander wrote:

I am not scaremongering Olly, I have not made any accusations. I have said that it is a possibility, and that the temptation is there. This is FACT, so how you can consider it scaremongering I do not know.

Most dealers got into dealing poker because they like playing poker, especially the winning part.

To rig it, you would need to have at least two dealers co-operating with you and both would have to be able to rig the deck without any mistakes. If they were caught it would be impossible to get work in pretty much any casino in Europe again.

It is a FACT that I am tempted to nick that Aston Martin DB7 I see on baggot st. every now and then. It is "possible" for me to do it. I don't because the risk is just too great. And as any good poker player will tell you it's all about reducing, not increasing the risks.

Waylander

Look lads I am not trying to piss anyone off. I am an accountant, and as such, part of my job involves identifying potential security risks BEFORE they cost a business money, or harm its reputation. If I worked for a card club this would be one of the points I would identify. I am not saying it is rife, or it is happening, I am just saying that there is a potential for it to happen.

ollyk1

Waylander wrote:

I am not scaremongering Olly, I have not made any accusations. I have said that it is a possibility, and that the temptation is there. This is FACT, so how you can consider it scaremongering I do not know.

Waylander I'm not looking to have a go at you personally and my post was not an attack on you but a presentation ofmy views.

Perhaps I took your post up the wrong way but I'm trying to read your post from the point of view of someone who hasn't played in a card club in Dublin before and is reading these boards. Any of the regular users of card clubs reading the poker board will have their own opinion on this issue already and therefore don't need telling but for someone who hasn't played in a casino you are creating a lot of doubts in their minds for someone who doesn't have

a strong opinion on it one way or the other though.

There are a lot of things that are possible and therefore "FACT" from your use of the word.

It's a FACT you could get shortchanged in a shop.
It's a FACT you could get hoodwinked when paying a rental or house deposit.
It's a FACT you could be overcharged/robbed in any financial transaction you undertake.

What I'm saying is, its a fact that in a card club if you feel a dealer is trying to stack a deck you can ask for the security tape to be reviewed and you can have a look at it yourself on request, as the club will not want to lose your business and would be anxious to not only have everything above board, but to be seen to have it above board.

I felt your line

I have seen people cut the deck 5 times and show a royal flush with the cuts (actually he missed the J by one card, but got it close enough), after he had shuffled the deck. It is a security measure but is not infallible.

was scaremongering. If you disagree thats your opinion but I'm entitled to present my view and while you may have associated with people who could do this I'm not casting any aspersions on you either I hasten to add.

Waylander

Again Olly, this is something I have witnessed in person so I do not consider it scaremongering. I could not do this, and I realise that mosty people could not, but I am also sure some people do have the skills. I have not tried to prevent you from sharing your view, but when I presented mine, this was your response: "I have never had a problem with any club I've frequented of this nature and I think scaremongering is wrong unless you have evidence or witnessed something to the contrary and if you did tell us what you did."

It basically said that because I cannot prove this has ever happened I should ignore the possibility of it ever happening. That is a ridiculous arguement.

Like I said, whether dealers can play in their own club or not is not a point I have strong feelings on, but when a point of mine is rubbished, and I feel it is unjustified, I will defend my point.

And by the way, People DO get shortchanged in shops, people DO get hoodwinked when paying rentals and house deposits, and people most certainly DO get overcharged for financial transactions. Ao what exactly was you point there?

5starpool

ollyk1 wrote:

If you disagree thats your opinion but I'm entitled to present my view and while you may have associated with people who could do this I'm not casting any aspersions on you either I hasten to add.

I disagree with you. You are rigged.

5starpool

Waylander wrote:

Again Olly, this is something I have witnessed in person so I do not consider it scaremongering. I could not do this, and I realise that mosty people could not, but I am also sure some people do have the skills.

Just out of curiousity, how did you friend shuffle the deck? Did he take an unshuffled deck and just cut it 5 times or did he use some other method?

ollyk1

Okay I see where we had a misunderstanding now Waylander.

I 100% agree with you that as a player you should always be on the watch out for underhand dealings at a table. A player should definitely have their eyes open as they would in any other financial transaction and just because you've never seen it happen doesn't mean you should assume it won't.

BUT I don't think that we should ban dealers from playing in a club where they work when not working just becasue of some "increased" risk from your POV of card stacking and "team" work. My point is if they could do this they'd work with a "stranger" rather than a fellow dealer so you aren't really addressing risk but merely window dressing the risk. The real protection is in security cameras and in the players remaining vigilant.

Waylander wrote:

And by the way, People DO get shortchanged in shops, people DO get hoodwinked when paying rentals and house deposits, and people most certainly DO get overcharged for financial transactions. Ao what exactly was you point there?

We have examples of these is my point. I have no example of a dealer stacking a deck of cards in a poker club in Dublin. What level of risk are you addressing??

You have an example of someone stacking a deck. Was it in a card club? Was this person a dealer? Apart from this part of your comment I had no real compulsion to reply but you've spoken of an example putting the fear out there (and an aspersion on people who work in card clubs whether you meant it or not) and then said nothing more about it.

I'd be willing to bet this guy plays pub games and isn't a poker dealer in a card club. If I want to reduce the risks I'm exposed to as a player I'll play in a card club where the dealers play on their days off rather than in a pub game.

As for risk management and accountants thats a personal pet peeve of mine but we'll have to leave that debate for another day:D

ollyk1

5starpool wrote:

I disagree with you. You are rigged.

Only in dodgy home games Dom! I'd never get away with that sh1te anywhere else!!

Dub13

On the point of dealers playing in other clubs,has anybody been caught out playing in another card club.This interest's me as I don't understand what kind of reprimand the employers could sanction if a dealer is playing in another club.

Waylander

5starpool wrote:

Just out of curiousity, how did you friend shuffle the deck? Did he take an unshuffled deck and just cut it 5 times or did he use some other method?

He was not a friend as such. I was away on a holiday, this guy I had been hanging out with a bit had been showing a few card tricks. One of them he shuffled the deck, in what looked like a pretty thorough way, but afterwards he cut the deck 5 times, at each point, bar the Jh he missed was a royal heart. You are correct Olly, this guy was not a dealer, but his trick has kind of made me a bit paranoid about what some guys can do with a deck of cards.

Another point you are correct in Olly, is I have not come across an occurence of this, but I do like to close the stable door before the horse bolts.

hairyfairy00

My fiance can do all those false shuffles/cut etc. I work in a casino and he has shown all of the punters the moves he can do, he works as a magician and adores magic but he would never set a deck if he dealt a game. He has the capability but believes it is totally wrong, when he does do it; it's to show punters what to look out for and for entertainment value. It takes many many years to practice these moves, other dealers who work with me have 15 years experience or more and they still can't do what he does.
The guy you met on holiday could do those moves because he's interested in magic not poker, yes he could bring them to a poker table but lets face it it's very rare to find a living card cheat!!!

connie147

Waylander wrote:

Yeah Oscar, I know that and I am not trying to cast aspersions on the dealer population. But the temptation may be there, and I think it can easily be removed so why not remove it. It is not like there is only one club in Dublin so they would have nowhere else to play. I don't really have a strong opinion on it one way or the other though. As for cutting the deck, I have seen people cut the deck 5 times and show a royal flush with the cuts (actually he missed the J by one card, but got it close enough), after he had shuffled the deck. It is a security measure but is not infallible.

Does everybody think the poker playing public are confined to Dublin only?
I have dealers in my club here in killarney who also love to play the game.We are the only card club in the area so if I deny them the oppertunity to play,they would have to travel to Cork(50 miles) to have a game.Would that be fair?

Waylander

hairyfairy00 wrote:

it's very rare to find a living card cheat!!!

What makes you think that?

And by the way, the holiday was a poker cruise, and you can rest assured that the bloke concerned was into his poker.

Waylander

connie147 wrote:

Does everybody think the poker playing public are confined to Dublin only?
I have dealers in my club here in killarney who also love to play the game.We are the only card club in the area so if I deny them the oppertunity to play,they would have to travel to Cork(50 miles) to have a game.Would that be fair?

You are right Connie, I was referring more to Dublin where there are options, I thought I had mentioned that in one of my points.