Another off topic rant bess heads vs Louiville

Right_Side

shay_562 wrote:

I have every confidence that I'll be like that again in years to come when, you know, the exams actually matter. But it's 1st year BESS; however hard studying is normally, studying for exams that you know you can pass without hard work and that there's no tangible reward for doing well in is damn near impossible.

Mmm... did Prof. Ruane never put up the copy of three students transcripts for you. That was my eye-opener.

Your future employer will see every grade from every course you do in College. A fail (even if passed on repeat) or marginal passes even in first year is sometimes enough to rule you out from competitive jobs as they are basically looking for anything to differentiate the candidates. Also, if you scrape through your first few years and then start working your employer may conclude you only work when you really have to etc.

Ruane showed us:
(a) A brilliant student - top grades for 4 years.
(b) A student who did nothing and then got better.
(c) A student who was brilliant and then got bad.

As she correctly pointed out in (c)'s case there could have been personal problems that resulted in a drop in performance e.g. a death in the family. At least that candidate could explain that he/she was a hard worker until the circumstances prevented it.

Stargal

Right_Side wrote:

Your future employer will see every grade from every course you do in College. A fail (even if passed on repeat) or marginal passes even in first year is sometimes enough to rule you out from competitive jobs as they are basically looking for anything to differentiate the candidates. Also, if you scrape through your first few years and then start working your employer may conclude you only work when you really have to etc.

That's really quite ridiculous. It is very rare to find an employer who wants to know about your grades from all four years of your course; what interests them is what degree you got, occasionally including grades from final year, any outstanding achievements and depending on the job, extra-curricular activities - not irrelevancies like you only got a II:II in introduction to political science in 1st year.

I worked for recruitment for the public sector and have talked to several people in the private sector about this too - at no stage has anyone ever even mentioned getting a full academic transcript from an applicant. Don't freak people out.

Right_Side

stargal wrote:

That's really quite ridiculous. It is very rare to find an employer who wants to know about your grades from all four years of your course; what interests them is what degree you got, occasionally including grades from final year, any outstanding achievements and depending on the job, extra-curricular activities - not irrelevancies like you only got a II:II in introduction to political science in 1st year.

I worked for recruitment for the public sector and have talked to several people in the private sector about this too - at no stage has anyone ever even mentioned getting a full academic transcript from an applicant. Don't freak people out.

Well Pat McCabe said the same this year as well.

It really depends on the level of the job your going for. If your happy at this early stage to settle for a public sector or private sector job of average pay than of course it won't be a problem. But the very best jobs will look at everything particularly any fails.

I really think having an excellent overall transcript is more important in things like BESS were it is not a vocation as such like engineering, medicine etc.

Boston

shay_562 wrote:

Like the two above, it has nothing to do with being 'cooler'. I used to be a studier, with colour-coded plans and everything, and I have every confidence that I'll be like that again in years to come when, you know, the exams actually matter. But it's 1st year BESS; however hard studying is normally, studying for exams that you know you can pass without hard work and that there's no tangible reward for doing well in is damn near impossible.

You'll never study like you did for the leaving cert again in your life. Aminly because it's a very very flawed appraoch to education.

Right_side, No employer will look at first year exams. All they care about are your most recent qualifications. They might look at your third year results, but will not look at thrends going back more then two years. Most employers accept that First year is a very difficult year on students, not because of work load, but because of the adjustment to college life.Allot of people go into first year exams with the same attitude as they had in the leaving cert, and it just falls apart for them. Over reliance of exam results come interview time, will be to your detriment.

Btw the "depends on what level of job you go for", you really believe that?

Stargal

Well if Pat McCabe said it... :rolleyes:

We have very different ideas of what constitutes 'the very best' type of jobs. That is all.

Can I ask that we try to wrap this little tangent up before it swerves into strange new places? I don't want this thread to veer off as has happened with other threads lately, and I suspect I speak for a good few of the others users when I say that.

Right_Side

Yeah and if you get good grades in first year it shows you can adapt quickly and effectively to a challenging situation.

When Morgan Stanley came in this year I know a guy who asked them should he apply even though he failed first year Maths and Stats. They said the application takes a long time and your resources could be used more efficiently. In other words - don't bother. When your competing with the top people from Oxford, Cambridge and the LSE every tiny thing counts at the end of the day.

LiouVille of course the better the job than the better the candidates and the differences between them get smaller and it really gets down to nit picking.

Stargal

Well I'm guessing that's because if you're applying to work for a company that makes its money in giving financial advice and you failed a basic college course in maths then it probably isn't the job for you :rolleyes:

Right_Side

stargal wrote:

Well I'm guessing that's because if you're applying to work for a company that makes its money in giving financial advice and you failed a basic college course in maths then it probably isn't the job for you :rolleyes:

Exactly... so what was your point again?

Stargal

Exactly... so what was your point again?

That companies don't ask for your full academic transcripts. All you've said is that someone you know planned on applying for a job that he was clearly unsuitable for. McKinsey mightn't have even asked him if he'd ever failed anything as part of the application proces - he volunteered the information.

Nietzschean

Her point is, the fact someone failed something arbitary and irrelevent , e.g. BC course in 3rd year probally isn't going to impact hugely on their job prospects.

As for transcripts i have had them requested off me for jobs, though having seen over the shoulder at the red-pen markings that are done, its really a case of highlight relevent things on the cv and transcripts and ignoring everything else..........

O and for the record some of us can do repeats in subjects and it have no bearing on our transcript...(i.e. 2.1 on repeats gives you a 2.1 in the course overall)

Nietzschean

stargal wrote:

That companies don't ask for your full academic transcripts.

I'm guessing that varies quite alot between courses, because looking for full academic transcripts by maths students is done very often(not just for further studies)......

Right_Side

stargal wrote:

That companies don't ask for your full academic transcripts. All you've said is that someone you know planned on applying for a job that he was clearly unsuitable for. McKinsey mightn't have even asked him if he'd ever failed anything as part of the application proces - he volunteered the information.

Believe me they will, I know for a fact from cousins now working in London.

These people are going to pay you upwards of £50K a year straight out of college - they will want to see the transcripts!

EDIT: Obviously as Nietzschean pointed out some subjects are going to be more relevant e.g. failing Political Science in 1st year won't be as detrimental as failing Maths and Stats but a fail is fail. What are you going to do when something you don't like pops up in work?

Stargal

Thanks Nietzchean. Yeah I didn't think of courses like Maths, was thinking of courses that would lead to general non-sector specific jobs (basically most of the Arts Block!)

Stargal

Let's agree to disagree on this one as we're both convinced we're right and it's not going to go anywhere.

Let's get back on topic instead. For a change.

Boston

Nietzschean wrote:

O and for the record some of us can do repeats in subjects and it have no bearing on our transcript...(i.e. 2.1 on repeats gives you a 2.1 in the course overall)

Really? I was under the impression that repeating any subject automatically lowered your grade to a pass (2.2). though different departments and all that.

Right side, you mentioned someone going for a job without having a degree, and basically asking, are my most recent exams relavent, of course they are. And while I'm certain you'll find examples here and there of people asking for all exam results even with a degree, it's certainly not the norm as you make out. You say you know for a fact because some company based in london asked some member of your family for full exam results, you've no idea how much weight they placed on those results.

europerson

LiouVille wrote:

Really? I was under the impression that repeating any subject automatically lowered your grade to a pass (2.2). though different departments and all that.

In the Faculty of Social and Human Sciences, if one takes the Supplemental Exam the only grades one can get are Pass or Fail. It's impossible to get a II.2 honour or an honour of any description in a course, in which a Supplemental is taken.

Boston

europerson wrote:

In the Faculty of Social and Human Sciences, if one takes the Supplemental Exam the only grades one can get are Pass or Fail. It's impossible to get a II.2 honour or an honour of any description in a course, in which a Supplemental is taken.

You know, your a ****ing moron. I don't really care about being banned, I'm sick of you following me around talking out your arse trying to contradict me without reading my posts, or even knowing what course i do. Did you not read my post where i say "different departments, and all that". So what if your department only gives out passes or fails, that doesn't invalidate what i said, or what Ian said. I'm in the engineering faculty, he's in what ever maths is in, and each department/faculty does things differently with regards supplementals.Now for all i know it is actually a pass of fail system, I can't remember 100%, Ian's post suggests that for maths it's not.

europerson

LiouVille wrote:

You know, your a ****ing moron. I don't really care about being banned, I'm sick of you following me around talking out your arse trying to contradict me without reading my posts, or even knowing what course i do. Did you not read my post where i say "different departments, and all that". So what if your department only gives out passes or fails, that doesn't invalidate what i said, or what Ian said. I'm in the engineering faculty, he's in what ever maths is in, and each department/faculty does things differently with regards supplementals.Now for all i know it is actually a pass of fail system, I can't remember 100%, Ian's post suggests that for maths it's not.

Now, hold on a minute. I never said that what you said was wrong. I merely explained the way it works in the faculty, of which I'm a member. I made that post purely for informational purposes. I was not trying to contradict you, because I don't know how the system works in the other faculties. That is beyond my knowledge, so I don't go there. I have read all your posts fully and I understood them all too. I was just explaining the way things work in the Faculty of Social and Human Sciences, so, in a way, I was agreeing with your assertion of "different departments and all that".

Nietzschean

Can't we all just take a few tokes off a nice peace pipe?

Boston

europerson wrote:

Now, hold on a minute. I never said that what you said was wrong. I merely explained the way it works in the faculty, of which I'm a member. I made that post purely for informational purposes. I was not trying to contradict you, because I don't know how the system works in the other faculties. That is beyond my knowledge, so I don't go there. I have read all your posts fully and I understood them all too. I was just explaining the way things work in the Faculty of Social and Human Sciences, so, in a way, I was agreeing with your assertion of "different departments and all that".

bull****. thats why you highlighted my post, and thats why you said

its's impossible to get a II.2 honour or an honour of any description in a course, in which a Supplemental is taken.

You didn't limit that little comment to your own faculty. And by all means lets split and bin this.

way to take yet another fun thread off topic with your negative waves Captain-bess.

europerson

LiouVille wrote:

bull****. thats why you highlighted my post, and thats why you said

europerson wrote:

its's impossible to get a II.2 honour or an honour of any description in a course, in which a Supplemental is taken.

I think you'll find I said:

europerson wrote:

In the Faculty of Social and Human Sciences, if one takes the Supplemental Exam the only grades one can get are Pass or Fail. It's impossible to get a II.2 honour or an honour of any description in a course, in which a Supplemental is taken.

I was referring only to one Faculty.

LiouVille wrote:

You didn't limit that little comment to your own faculty. And by all means lets split and bin this.

As explained, I did.

way to take yet another fun thread off topic with your negative waves Captain-bess.

If anything, you were the one with the "negative waves". I was merely stating the facts of what happens in one faculty, the one I of which I'm part. I think that distinction is quite clear, should you read my posts in their entirety.

Right_Side

LiouVille wrote:

And while I'm certain you'll find examples here and there of people asking for all exam results even with a degree, it's certainly not the norm as you make out.

It most certainly is in the top jobs. Not in the average graduate jobs.

You say you know for a fact because some company based in london asked some member of your family for full exam results, you've no idea how much weight they placed on those results.

Well my two cousins both work for different companies and they both wanted full transcripts.

I know they weren't the be-all-and-end-all but with competition as fierce as, it would certainly rule you out of a job. While, on the other hand a perfect transcript wouldn't get you job on its own.

Off-Topic: Can I just say LiouVille's aggressive approach is difficult to deal with and his personal attack on europerson was totally uncalled for. I would like to take this opportunity to remind people he made a similar personal attack on me a few days ago. He has also been very aggressive toward Thirdfox, I believe.

shay_562

Your future employer will see every grade from every course you do in College. A fail (even if passed on repeat) or marginal passes even in first year is sometimes enough to rule you out from competitive jobs as they are basically looking for anything to differentiate the candidates. Also, if you scrape through your first few years and then start working your employer may conclude you only work when you really have to etc.

Note that I neither said I expected to fail any courses (I've worked more than enough to pass) or 'scrape through [my] first few years'. Next year I'll be sitting Schols, third year and fourth year will count towards my degree; I don't think taking a relaxed attitude to a first year broad-based course where I'll never sit 50% of my subjects ever again is that big a deal - this situation is completely different to your example of a guy doing a maths course and failing 1st year maths and stats (which is very basic, mathematically speaking). If I'm looking to work in something related to business or economics, are you honestly telling me that getting a 2-2 instead of a first in JF political science is going to have an impact if my later grades in the subjects I'm actually getting a degree in are all good? Because that seems to me to be a) insane (of everything they'll base a job application on, such as experience, interview, actual bloody degre, first year results are pretty inconsequential) and b) based on fairly spurious evidence. Your two key arguments are that you know people who have been asked for full transcripts and that a few professors told you so. To the first one: as has already been pointed out, you have absolutely no idea how much emphasis was placed on that transcript, or if 1st year grades were even looked at. To the second: my teachers in 3rd year told me that my Junior cert results would be looked at in every job I went for for the rest of my life. Educators aren't above exagerrating/ouright lying to motivate you.

Andrew 83

Right_Side wrote:

It most certainly is in the top jobs. Not in the average graduate jobs.

What kind of job are you looking to go into?

Right_Side

shay_562 wrote:

Note that I neither said I expected to fail any courses (I've worked more than enough to pass) or 'scrape through [my] first few years'. Next year I'll be sitting Schols, third year and fourth year will count towards my degree;

Third year doesn't count toward your degree in BESS.

this situation is completely different to your example of a guy doing a maths course and failing 1st year maths and stats (which is very basic, mathematically speaking).

He was actually doing BESS.

If I'm looking to work in something related to business or economics, are you honestly telling me that getting a 2-2 instead of a first in JF political science is going to have an impact if my later grades in the subjects I'm actually getting a degree in are all good?

Of course not, a fail would be a different thing. I just took it from your post that you weren't putting alot of work in and was merely trying to give you a reality check. Also, for all I knew you weren't working in Maths and Stats and Economics wish are the two most important first year subjects (and also the only ones people fail bar one guy who failed Sociology and PS last year if my memory serves me correctly!).

Right_Side

Andrew 83 wrote:

What kind of job are you looking to go into?

I'm referring to jobs like Investment Banking, not neccessarily what I'm going to go into though.

Thirdfox

Right_Side wrote:

...Off-Topic: Can I just say LiouVille's aggressive approach is difficult to deal with and his personal attack on europerson was totally uncalled for. I would like to take this opportunity to remind people he made a similar personal attack on me a few days ago. He has also been very aggressive toward Thirdfox, I believe.

Lol, someone will have to split the off topic thread from the off topic thread :eek: .

Like ApeX's advice to me, read his blog on the boards.ie wikipedia... apparently he has been through a lot. Makes his (bitter?) actions seem more justifiable.

Nietzschean

Louiville banned for 48hrs

Right_Side

Thirdfox wrote:

Like ApeX's advice to me, read his blog on the boards.ie wikipedia... apparently he has been through a lot. Makes his (bitter?) actions seem more justifiable.

Can you give me a linky?

Bitter is the perfect word!

Thirdfox

Discussing stuff to do with someone banned is bad.

Right_Side

Hmm... interesting...

Thirdfox

Apologises Nietz - I was trying to show that LiouVille's actions may be justified by the rough times he went through on boards.ie

I felt perhaps that way people will be more accommodating of him.

Andrew 83

I don't know much about Investment Banking but I can think of some much more plaussible reasons of why in a job like that (particularly in London) they are going to want to look at your transcript than to check out your first year results.

a) The most obvious reason is to make sure that you're not pulling a fast one and that you actually went to the college. This may sound ridiculous but I would say that lots of people may lie about what college they went to on a CV under the presumption that no one will check. This is, as I say, particularly likely to be a factor in England given the greater number of applicants. This is because 1) people will think that with so many applicants to a given position given the size of the population the employer is unlikely to contact each college to check, 2) people will think that with so many applicants they will need to be able to say they came from a presitigous college, 3) employers will want to root out false applications as quickly as possible so will therefore require a transcript. This is I would say a very similar reason to why many employers ask for a photocopy of your degree. I can't think of any other reason why they would do so.

b) To make sure you're not lying about your result(s). The company will want to make sure that you actually got that 1st/2.1 in final year. While looking at this they will also want to see how you got on in all your final year subjects rather than just your overall grade. They may also want to look at your third year results.


I don't honestly believe that any company seriously wants to know how you did in first year or even second year. As Christine indicated they're going to be much more interested in how you did in your final year and what relevant work experience you have as well as what extra-curricular things you were involved with. In this day and age you're also not going to swan into a 'top job' with an undergraduate degree. You're going to need a Masters a least and perhaps a PhD. The company will then care even less how you did in first and second year, they will mainly want to know what you got in your degree and masters and what your thesis was on.

I don't really see why a company would honestly care how you got on in first year. On the other hand there's a whole abundance of reasons why lecturers will want you to believe that they do. In massive first year BESS lectures the lecturers are going to want to make sure there's no messing (I can remeber Frances Ruane in particular now that you name her stopping class to give out to people talking so that says something there too) and that everyone tries hard in their exams. They're not going to want to have to trudge through a load of useless unthought out exams at the end of the day. It's in their interests for you to try as hard as you can.

Running Bing

Tbh I really dont think it matters. I got the "transcript" lecture from Ruane as well but lecturers obviously have an incentive. For the IB jobs you mention right side I dont think they view a transcript at all. Results are taking for granted in that sort of a job and good results are usually a given. "Outstanding academic performance" is a prerequisite not an advantage. And if you have a bad transcript chances are your not gonna get a job in IB because your not the sort of person their looking for.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

when i was applying for some investment jobs in London after finishing my Masters, i was asked for transcripts of my leaving cert ... they can be quite anal

Right_Side

Believe what you want to believe. At the end of the day I'll be happy to show my transcript to any future employers.

No fails is the motto to go by!

Right_Side

Roundtower2 wrote:

when i was applying for some investment jobs in London after finishing my Masters, i was asked for transcripts of my leaving cert ... they can be quite anal

Thank you, point proven... again!

Pet

Fawn
Brawn
Sawn
Dawn
Lawn
Pawn
Clawn
Drawn
Prawn

All are words that rhyme with _ _ _ _. What could this word be? Well. It begins with me becoming extremely bored of this thread. I slowly open my mouth, wider and wider, then I tense certain muscles around my jaw, emitting a fairly loud moan while exhaling. This is the effect this thread has on me. I though you should all know, because I am drunk and do not care.

John

It's bawn isn't it

Nietzschean

Nice "deleted" post pet