Garda Shooting Ranges

civdef

From today's Indo.

Toxic lead fear led to firing range closure


FEARS of lead poisoning were responsible for the closure of the national target-practice range at Garda headquarters.

As a result armed detectives have no firing range to hone their shooting skills.

The range in Dublin's Phoenix Park was shut down last December because of concerns that it could expose gardai to lead poisoning.

Special Branch detectives have had to travel to a firing range on open ground in the Midlands for the past six months to comply with the requirement for regular shooting practice.

These were the facilities available to detectives who fired six shots last Sunday in a failed attempt to burst the tyres on the speeding bus that killed retired teacher Maire Buckley in Dublin.

Mrs Buckley's funeral takes place this morning before burial at Fingal Cemetery.

Health

A Garda spokesman confirmed that the in-door Phoenix Park shooting range was closed last December but he declined to elaborate on the health concerns that prompted its closure.

The Garda firing range is enclosed and there was concern about the cumulative impact of trace lead deposits in the air.

If it were proven that the indoor practice arena posed a health hazard there would be potential for armed members of the force to take expensive compensation claims against the State, as has happened with the army deafness litigation.

The Garda spokesman confirmed that the Office of Public Works has been called in to help solve the problem.

"The Office of Public Works is identifying the work required to be done so it can be re-opened," he said.

Garda detectives are armed with handguns and sub-machine guns.

It emerged in the Abbeylara inquiry, into the death of John Carthy in Co Longford in 2000, that members of the Emergency Response Unit have received specialist training from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in Virginia, United States.

Justine McCarthy

civdef

It shouldn't pose a huge problem to set this range up to spec. Today's Irish Times has a similar story, which mentions a Public-Private partnership with a civilian range may be examined as another option.

Rew

They asked the Army to give them one of their ranges (possibly Killpedder). A Public-Privite partnership would be a great idea and could benifit everyone.

Vegeta

my god the ERU received training from the FBI, lot of good that did John Carthy

17HMR

Police firearms use is probably the most demanding and difficult firearms use there is... not only do you have to be able to shoot at poeple who are shooting at you (as the military also do) but you have to do so in a non-military environment where there are civilians to be considered.

Armed police officers must train and qualify regularly, otherwise they become a hazard to themsleves and to the public.

There should also be proper training and qualification for firearms officers !

Vegeta

17HMR wrote:

Police firearms use is probably the most demanding and difficult firearms use there is... not only do you have to be able to shoot at poeple who are shooting at you (as the military also do) but you have to do so in a non-military environment where there are civilians to be considered.

Armed police officers must train and qualify regularly, otherwise they become a hazard to themsleves and to the public.

There should also be proper training and qualification for firearms officers !

I agree with you there it is a very tough thing to do and I am probably over critical of the ERU.

Firearms officers very so much from station to station it is very frustrating for shooters, they badly need training.

My local FAO hadn't even heard of a rifle in .223 calibre :eek: he then asked me "is it much heavier than .22"

What do you say to that?

civdef

Simple, "yes it is". Trying to be smart with someone who is just doing their job, evidently with little training or backup is just ignorant.

The minister made a very interesting cimment in recent Dail debates to the effect that a civilian firearms licencing agency would make sense, and I have to agree. Local Gardai could still be involved in the licencing proess in ascertaining whether the person is fit to possess a firearm, but the technical issues would be dealt with by trained experts.

Firearms licencing Gardai don't have to be authorised to carry firearms, as I understand it. I'm not sure that they have any training at all.

Vegeta

civdef wrote:

Simple, "yes it is". Trying to be smart with someone who is just doing their job, evidently with little training or backup is just ignorant. .

well to start with, I wasn't even sure what he meant by "heavier" did he mean heavy gun, bigger bullet and/or round, longer range.

I simply told him that the bullet itself was not much bigger than the .22 but it did indeed have a longer range (told him i'd be shooting foxes at bout 200 yards) and bigger casing with more gun powder in it. I didn't know what else to say.

As this will be my third gun I know the guy fairly well and one of the garda in the station is good friends with my dad so i'd be known to them. I was shocked he had never heard of the .223 calibre. It worried me for two reasons 1) I'm obviously the first in the area (which is a very big area) to apply for a rifle in this calibre and 2) they may be less likely to issue a rifle of a calibre that is unknown to them

Rew

Vegeta wrote:

my god the ERU received training from the FBI, lot of good that did John Carthy

Actually FBI criticised the ERU for not shooting Carthy sooner and giving him toomany warnings. They felt that the ERU had put them selfs in more danger by letting him get as far as he did.

Vegeta

Rew wrote:

Actually FBI criticised the ERU for not shooting Carthy sooner and giving him toomany warnings. They felt that the ERU had put them selfs in more danger by letting him get as far as he did.

Ok i don't want to start a debate about this but are there any marksmen in the ERU, do they have tear gas, flash bangs, rubber bullets. I agree they left it go on too long but I have always wondered was a lethal outcome the only outcome possible in that situation.

civdef

This really isn't the thread for that debate, and there's an awful lot of information & debate available on the incident in other areas of Boards.ie as well as other sites.

Vegeta

civdef wrote:

This really isn't the thread for that debate, and there's an awful lot of information & debate available on the incident in pother areas of Boards.ie as well as other sites.

agreed

babybundy

to my understanding the gardi in cork have used kilworth ranges in the past army dont use 38's but i've seen the shells around

Rew

They use loads of Army ranges but only when there free. A Garda group were present at a recent Army Brigade shooting competition. They were evualating how the Army run pistol ranges. The reason isn't clear, it may have to do with this or it may have to do with the CJB. I think the Army have used 38's in the past BTW.

lostexpectation

so this is just about a lack vents a/c?

CLADA

Are any of the ranges in this country suitable for the kind of training required for armed police and armed forces operations. Standing in line shooting at plywood targets provides shooting and target practice, but for modern tactical firearms training a range must be capable of providing a facility to simulate deploying in an urban environment, debussing from vehicles, use of cover, situational awareness i.e crossfire, presence of innocent parties, location of colleagues are basic requirements. Is there such a facility?

civdef

For requalification at the moment, a standard range is all that's needed. There used to be a tactical shooting range at Templemore, though this is apparently closed?

Part of the problem at the Phoenix Park range was richochets from the backstop according to media reports.

CLADA

Templemore range and phoenix park range are both closed? A police force with no ranges??

mcguiver

The tactical one in Templemore is closed due to the ongoing building project. But the standard one is very much open. Apart from that they have a few derilict houses in remote areas that are used for practice.

babybundy

there is a tac range in cork sorry cant say where which brigade shoot where the gardai at