Muppet Or Complete Idiot

charlesanto

We have a weekly home game that’s been going on for about a year, so all know each others game pretty well. I got berated for my play after this hand, was my play so bad?

BB with 7,000 chips is loose cannon who very seldom calls, usually folds or raises. Capable of taking a stab at pot with nothing, but generally weak, very likely to fold any raise to his usual continuation/ probe bets.

UTG+1with 3,000 chips is a very solid player, very aggressive when he thinks he has even the slightest advantage.

Blinds – 75/150

Pre Flop Betting…
UTG folds, UTG+1 Raises to 400 everyone folds to the BB who re-raises to 800
UTG+1 moves all in 3,000

Pot (3,875)
UTG+1 range here I think is pairs 77 to QQ, Suited or Non Suited AK, AQ, Suited KQ (range could even be wider against BB McLooseCannon)

I am the BB with 6,6 – is this an auto fold ?

ArmaniJeanss

charlesanto wrote:

I am the BB with 6,6 – is this an auto fold ?

100% Yes.

spectre

charlesanto wrote:

UTG+1 range here I think is pairs 77 to QQ, Suited or Non Suited AK, AQ, Suited KQ (range could even be wider against BB McLooseCannon)

I am the BB with 6,6 – is this an auto fold ?

According to your read, you are either behind or facing a coinflip. So yes, auto fold.

Waylander

I think your range for UTG+1 is too wide. There has already been a raise and reraise so this play would not be made with a medium pair. QQ, KK, AA, AKs would be the range I would apply in this situation.

fuzzbox

Dont make it 800, what do you achieve?

Make a proper raise, and call a subsequent push, or just call and see a flop.

You sucked it up pretty bad.

charlesanto

Waylander wrote:

QQ, KK, AA, AKs would be the range I would apply in this situation.

Would KK,AA not be more likely to bet half his stack to encourage a call ?
The bet minged of ... "How dare you not respect my raise; re-raise me with ****e would ya; I WANT YOU TO FOLD NOW !!! "

spectre wrote:

According to your read, you are either behind or facing a coinflip. So yes, auto fold.

Is a coin flip not good situation?
Heads => good solid player out !
Tails => i still have 4k (average stack) left to play with.



Everything I've written sound's like I'm trying find excuses to justify a really bad call. So it must have been a "really bad call"
UTG+1 flips over AKo - my sixes hold up - nice of you to deal Waylander after suffering such a bad beat

Hectorjelly

Waylander wrote:

I think your range for UTG+1 is too wide. There has already been a raise and reraise so this play would not be made with a medium pair. QQ, KK, AA, AKs would be the range I would apply in this situation.

I really doubt a player is folding AKo here but pushing AKs!


The preflop min raise is really bad, calling is fine, raising properly (or pushing) is fine, but reopening the betting and forcing him to call and see a flop is about the worst choice possible. Once he reraises you are pretty much forced to call unless you think he is folding AK.

Waylander

Fair enough HJ, AKs and AKo would not make much difference, in the hand in question I had AKs that is probably why I put that in above. It was not really a bad beat Col as I was never ahead in the hand, I just think calling in that spot with 66 is going to leak alot of chips in the long run. This was a 50/50 call at best, but I think you would normally be miles behind making that call, so to my mind you were risking 50% of your stack on a hand you are expecting to lose a large part of the time.

Norwich Fan Rob

why did u min raise with 66 out of position?
u leave yourself open to a reraise, which you may have to fold.
even if villian just calls, over cards will come on the flop, then what are u gonna do out of position.
call pre flop, and stack him if u hit a set, otherwise fold.

By calling with 66, we have to except to be at best 50/50.

charlesanto

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

why did u min raise with 66 out of position?
u leave yourself open to a re-raise, which you may have to fold.
even if villain just calls, over cards will come on the flop, then what are u gonna do out of position.
call pre flop, and stack him if u hit a set, otherwise fold.

By calling with 66, we have to except to be at best 50/50.

In hindsight the min-raise pure Muppeteering - At the time it was to gauge how much he liked his hand and to make a statement that i wouldn't be easily bullied by post flop bets - i wasn't expecting the all in. My min-raise was to represent a stronger hand than I had. Without my raise i would definitely be facing a pot sized bet post flop irrespective of what cards Waylander was holding and irrespective of whether the flop suited him or not !


People keep saying that I was a best 50/50 - Is 50/50 not good when...

ME wrote:

Heads => good solid player out !
Tails => i still have 4k (average stack) left to play with.

fuzzbox

charlesanto wrote:

People keep saying that I was a best 50/50 - Is 50/50 not good when...

The key part of the statement is the at best part.

You are either 55/45 ahead OR you are 80/20 behind (to a bigger pair).

If you could saw his AK, then call is perfect. As it is, I would find it tough to fold for 2.2k into a 4k pot. 2:1 is just about right to call with 66.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 33.9344 % 33.68% 00.26% { 66 }
Hand 2: 66.0656 % 65.81% 00.26% { 77+, AQs+, KQs, AQo+ }

Waylander

I still think that range is too wide for a rereraise. I think it very unlikely someone would push all in with a raise and a reraise in front of them, with 77 to JJ, and definitely unlikely with KQ or AQ.

Waylander

charlesanto wrote:

In hindsight the min-raise pure Muppeteering - At the time it was to gauge how much he liked his hand and to make a statement that i wouldn't be easily bullied by post flop bets - i wasn't expecting the all in. My min-raise was to represent a stronger hand than I had. Without my raise i would definitely be facing a pot sized bet post flop irrespective of what cards Waylander was holding and irrespective of whether the flop suited him or not !


People keep saying that I was a best 50/50 - Is 50/50 not good when...

I had not acted yet, and you were expecting a fold from the players behind you. You thought it would go down to you v Gary.

fuzzbox

Waylander wrote:

I still think that range is too wide for a rereraise. I think it very unlikely someone would push all in with a raise and a reraise in front of them, with 77 to JJ, and definitely unlikely with KQ or AQ.

According to the post the action was :

utg+1 raises, some folds or whatever, BB reraises, folded to utg+1 who goes all-in.

Is this correct action? Are you suggesting that there was a third party involved?

Finally - the poster said:

UTG+1 range here I think is pairs 77 to QQ, Suited or Non Suited AK, AQ, Suited KQ (range could even be wider against BB McLooseCannon)

I am the BB with 6,6 – is this an auto fold ?

So call is ok.

Waylander

Yes there was a third party who folded after I went all in, but he had raised it earlierthen CA min raised him.

I know that is the range he said I could have had, but I think he put me on far too wide a range. In over two years of weekly home games he has not seen me make a move like that, when I am relatively comfortably stacked, with a hand like 77 or 88.

From original post:

"Pre Flop Betting…
UTG folds, UTG+1 Raises to 400 everyone folds to the BB who re-raises to 800
UTG+1 moves all in 3,000"

This is wrong, UTG+1 did raise to 400, CA min raised him, I went all in from the button.

fuzzbox

Waylander - this action dramatically affects the commentary.

I would fold 66.

RoundTower

So CA is somewhere between the UTG raiser and the button, not on the BB after all?

Sounds like an easy fold, I think you can fold the hand the way it was described first too, unless he really would do this with KQ and such hands. But the preflop min raise is terrible.

Canaboid

fuzzbox wrote:

You are either 55/45 ahead OR you are 80/20 behind (to a bigger pair).

CA,this is the bit I was trying to impress on you. Much more likely to be facing a big pair in this situation. If you didn't hit your set you were crippled with 3k left.
Keep it up, luck is a finite commodity

kleefarr

charlesanto wrote:

We have a weekly home game that’s been going on for about a year, so all know each others game pretty well. I got berated for my play after this hand, was my play so bad?

BB with 7,000 chips is loose cannon who very seldom calls, usually folds or raises. Capable of taking a stab at pot with nothing, but generally weak, very likely to fold any raise to his usual continuation/ probe bets.

UTG+1with 3,000 chips is a very solid player, very aggressive when he thinks he has even the slightest advantage.

Blinds – 75/150

Pre Flop Betting…
UTG folds, UTG+1 Raises to 400 everyone folds to the BB who re-raises to 800
UTG+1 moves all in 3,000

Pot (3,875)
UTG+1 range here I think is pairs 77 to QQ, Suited or Non Suited AK, AQ, Suited KQ (range could even be wider against BB McLooseCannon)

I am the BB with 6,6 – is this an auto fold ?

All I would say is... play it how YOU want to. Don't worry about anyone else. When you play, play your game. If you play how everyone else says you should play then they'll know what to expect!

(oh... and be careful out there!)

charlesanto

Ok - The thread title "Muppet or Complete Idiot" has been answered.

I was a complete idiot making a min-raise.

I was a marginal muppet calling the all in.

But...

Even on the range waylander says i should have put him on ...

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 66.6394 % 66.45% 00.19% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 33.3606 % 33.17% 00.19% { 66 }

I am still getting the odds to call.

The poker gods smiled on me - I’m a luck box etc etc.
I find it really difficult not to call all in's if I have any sort of a chance - the satisfaction I get from knocking a player out is too great!