Immigration Trouble

Carb

I don't want to go into specifics, but lets say I know somebody (Irish citizen) who is married to an Ukranian girl. They got married last November in the Ukraine. She has applied for a visa and was rejected, appealed and was rejected again. This is despite every piece of evidence that was requested to prove the relationship was genuine been supplied. This included 1.5/2 years of photgraphs, over 12 months of phone bills showing frequent calls to the Ukraine, since she had to go home, and evidence of 3/4 trips by this person to the Ukraine to visit.

My legal query is - As the institution of marriage and family, and the rights of people to choose their spouse is enshrined in the Constitution and the UN Convention of Human Rights, is he been denied his human rights as an Irish citizen by not been allowed to live with his wife in this country. In a round about way, is this interfereing with his right to choose a spouse, and his family rights.

I don't come from a legal background so I was wondering what other peoples opinions are on this. Pessimism is starting to creep in at this stage, and he's strting to think she'll never get over here.

PS. I've read the charter, so I won't be taking whats said here as legal advice.

hullaballoo

Hmmm, that does seem surprising to be honest. Immigration control seems to be a matter unto itself, to my mind.

If he wants to take a case, he should look into what grounds he should take it aside from the constitutional law aspects.

Carb

hullaballoo wrote:

Hmmm, that does seem surprising to be honest. Immigration control seems to be a matter unto itself, to my mind.

If he wants to take a case, he should look into what grounds he should take it aside from the constitutional law aspects.

I'm just thinking worse case scenario. I realise the reasons why immigration are careful on things like this, and I think there is a certain element of "lets cause as much hassle as possible" to give the the impression that "marriages of convenience" won't work. At the moment its going through his local TD, which may or may not yield results.

The reason I was looking at the human rights side of it, is that she out stayed her work permit previously, although she went back of her own accord. This would be grounds for refusing a visa normally, but not grounds to prevent a husband and wife living together. However, I don't think it really has an relevance, as this would have been the first thing immigration would have known. Instead, they spent two/three months asking for more information, usually every couple of weeks, with regards to their relationship. I think the last time he spoke to the Department of Justice, the reason he was given was that they were off the impression that it was not a genuine relationship although the evidence obviously contradicts this.

Which is why the pessimism is kicking in. All evidence to back up the marriage has been provided as requested. You can't just create more evidence.

Saruman

Thats odd! My wife is not Irish, she is american and had been living in the czech republic (before they became EU). Anyway when we married it was in the US (vegas) and she moved with me here.. went to immigration place near tara street with passport and marriage cert and got her garda card.. no problems.. Is that what they did or did they go some other route? Thats all you need to do usually... Oh of course they needed my passport too but they barely glanced at me.
Funny thing is, the marriage cert we gave them was not even "official" it was a nice looking one for framing.. part of the the wedding ceremony as it looks nicer than the official ones which we were waiting for in the post!

Carb

Saruman wrote:

Thats odd! My wife is not Irish, she is american and had been living in the czech republic (before they became EU). Anyway when we married it was in the US (vegas) and she moved with me here.. went to immigration place near tara street with passport and marriage cert and got her garda card.. no problems.. Is that what they did or did they go some other route? Thats all you need to do usually... Oh of course they needed my passport too but they barely glanced at me.
Funny thing is, the marriage cert we gave them was not even "official" it was a nice looking one for framing.. part of the the wedding ceremony as it looks nicer than the official ones which we were waiting for in the post!

I assume been an American, she was able to come into the country as a visitor. In this case, his wife can't even come into the country without a visa. She applied through the Ukranian consulate, and I think this was then sent to Moscow.

rkeane

I really sympathise with this situation, my wife is naturalised Irish - originally from the Philippines. We’ve been married 8 years, it was never this difficult before to get an entry visa. Unfortunately the cautious approach from the Visa Section in the Dept of Justice is as a result of mass illegal immigration into Ireland…fraudulent marriages have been detected in large numbers. (I’m not suggesting this is a sham marriage).

I Know of dozens of couples in this situation … just go down the TD route and hope for the best….unfortunately that’s all the advice I can give…there are no guarantees in this situation. On a related subject you should know that the wife in question no longer has an absolute entitlement to citizenship through her marriage. Sorry to deliver the bad news.

Carb

rkeane wrote:

I really sympathise with this situation, my wife is naturalised Irish - originally from the Philippines. We’ve been married 8 years, it was never this difficult before to get an entry visa. Unfortunately the cautious approach from the Visa Section in the Dept of Justice is as a result of mass illegal immigration into Ireland…fraudulent marriages have been detected in large numbers. (I’m not suggesting this is a sham marriage).

I Know of dozens of couples in this situation … just go down the TD route and hope for the best….unfortunately that’s all the advice I can give…there are no guarantees in this situation. On a related subject you should know that the wife in question no longer has an absolute entitlement to citizenship through her marriage. Sorry to deliver the bad news.

I know about the citizenship. Probably something else that was getting abused. This is why I raised the question about his rights as an Irish citizen. I can't imgine that a situation would be allowed to arise where he'd never be able to live with his wife, unless he waits until the Ukraine becomes a member of the EU or he goes to live in the Ukraine. As I said, he's going to exhaust the TD route anyway, and I suppose after that will have to consider his options.

galwaydude

Its probably the fact she ukranian that it was rejected. If the marriage is indeed genuine then she should be allowed into ireland on a visa.

Immigration are very wary nowadays when they see irish people marrying non EU people.

Carb

galwaydude wrote:

Immigration are very wary nowadays when they see irish people marrying non EU people.

Its probably about time they realised that there's a whole big world outside the EU. I suspect if she was Australian/American or any other country of similiar wealth, this wouldn't be a problem. Seems a pretty useless way of setting a country's immigration policy.

rkeane

Every single week cases of arranged marriage from Eastern Europe take place; these were exposed by the GNIB several years ago. There has to be some sort of vetting.....unfortunately innocent people are going to get inconvenienced - this is regrettable. In defence of the Visa section, Ukraine (like a lot of former soviet states) is a hot-spot for this kind of activity - they are always going to be suspicious. I think you will find that this is in keeping with a new E.U directive on immigration into the European Union.

Saruman

Ah well if she cant get into the country in the first place that explains a lot.. might have skipped that part of the post

It sucks, i did not think Ireland required visas from any country.

Eru

Its very dodgy taking action of this nature based on the family and the constitution. It opens ups areas that people know are wrong. IE marital rape, domestic violence, etc.

Apart from that, I cannnot offer anything concrete

Carb

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Its very dodgy taking action of this nature based on the family and the constitution. It opens ups areas that people know are wrong. IE marital rape, domestic violence, etc.

Apart from that, I cannnot offer anything concrete

Apart from the Constitution, the UN convention on Human Rights, acknowledges the right of everyone to choose their spouse. Does this not interfere with that right.

I find it hard to believe that current system works as follows:

1. Apply for a Visa and the Department of Justice says no.
2. Appeal the decision to the exact same department and they say no.
3. End of Story

Thirdfox

Ireland isn't bound by the UN Convention of Human Rights (it is somewhat bound by the European Convention of Human Rights though).

rkeane

Unfortunately Carb - that is the way the system works. Ireland is not bound to any convention which denies the government the right to enforce immigration controls.

Duras

galwaydude wrote:

Its probably the fact she ukranian that it was rejected.

Now that's a genuine reason to reject a join spouse visa... :mad:

baker20

Carb wrote: »

I don't want to go into specifics, but lets say I know somebody (Irish citizen) who is married to an Ukranian girl. They got married last November in the Ukraine. She has applied for a visa and was rejected, appealed and was rejected again. This is despite every piece of evidence that was requested to prove the relationship was genuine been supplied. This included 1.5/2 years of photgraphs, over 12 months of phone bills showing frequent calls to the Ukraine, since she had to go home, and evidence of 3/4 trips by this person to the Ukraine to visit.

My legal query is - As the institution of marriage and family, and the rights of people to choose their spouse is enshrined in the Constitution and the UN Convention of Human Rights, is he been denied his human rights as an Irish citizen by not been allowed to live with his wife in this country. In a round about way, is this interfereing with his right to choose a spouse, and his family rights.

I don't come from a legal background so I was wondering what other peoples opinions are on this. Pessimism is starting to creep in at this stage, and he's strting to think she'll never get over here.

PS. I've read the charter, so I won't be taking whats said here as legal advice.

There is another way seek asylum if she can get to Ireland. There is no obligation to stay in an asylum center .When she stays with you make the 3 month application for marriage here . I know of some Ukrainians who said there were Muslims and got refugee status sounds unbelievable but true.
I feel they may have tightened the rules as I did see complaints that Asylum was being used as a backdoor. I know people will object to this but look what happens when you are genuine. I favour the stamp 3 no work, no welfare visa for marriage and a period of 5 years. We do have a right to marriage of our choice .

http://www.nascireland.org/latest-news/state-loses-supreme-court-appeals-on-foreign-marriages/
So a refugee has more rights than an Irish citizen on marriage abroad ?

Sala

I vaguely recall from studying the fe1s there may be a way if your friend can work abroad in the EU. If he gets a job elsewhere his wife can join him under the free movement of workers legislation, which only applies to EU workers not in their country of origin. Apparently lots of British took working holidays in Ireland which then kicked started their rights under the legislation and meant their spouses could live with them when they went home. I can't recall the details or know if its still possible, maybe someone else can shed some light on it!

camel jockey

Hopefully he isn't still waiting for an answer 7 years later...

Sala

Ha sorry! Someone else bumped it I isn't notice

Cody Pomeray

Well since it's bumped now, and the law does not seem to have been clarified, two main conditions arise.

1. How long did the OP reside together with his spouse before and after their marriage?

2. Could the Ukranian spouse's immigration status into Ireland have been described as 'precarious' before the OP married her?

If the answer to q.1 is "not long", and the answer to q.2 is yes, then the Minister is entitled to look unpropitiously upon the Ukranian spouse's application.

There is no automatic right to reside in this jurisdiction simply because a marriage has been contracted to an IRISH ntaional.

If you are an EU national living in Ireland, your rights to bring your non EU bride come more easily, strangely enough.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Pro Hoc Vice

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Locus and Delay may be an issue.

Pro Hoc Vice

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Well since it's bumped now, and the law does not seem to have been clarified, two main conditions arise.

1. How long did the OP reside together with his spouse before and after their marriage?

2. Could the Ukranian spouse's immigration status into Ireland have been described as 'precarious' before the OP married her?

If the answer to q.1 is "not long", and the answer to q.2 is yes, then the Minister is entitled to look unpropitiously upon the Ukranian spouse's application.

There is no automatic right to reside in this jurisdiction simply because a marriage has been contracted to an IRISH ntaional.

If you are an EU national living in Ireland, your rights to bring your non EU bride come more easily, strangely enough.

Yes if an Irish person moves to a EU country and exercises treaty rights then their spouse must be allowed in to that country. After a recent ECJ decision when that persons moves home they retain the EU free movement rights. Going on holiday would not normally be exercising treaty rights.