Can Truth be found in religions?

Dagon

This is an extremely interesting question... I read the following answer by Krishnamurti, and am curious what people think of this. I have my own ideas, but reading this answer by Krishnamurty really makes you look at it.. it's pretty profound.

"Question: Grains of truth are to be found in religions, theories, ideas and beliefs. What is the right way of separating them?

Krishnamurti: The false is the false, and by seeking you cannot separate the false from the truth. You have to see the false as the false, and then only is there a cessation of the false. You cannot seek the truth in the false, but you can see the false as the false, and then there is a release from the false. Sir, how can the false contain the truth? How can ignorance, darkness, contain understanding, light? I know we would like to have it so; we would like to think that somewhere in us there is eternity, light, truth, piety, all covered over with ignorance. Where there is light, there is no darkness; where there is ignorance, there is always ignorance, but never understanding. So there is release only when you and I see the false as the false, that is, when we see the truth about the false, which means not dwelling in the false as the false. Our seeing the false as the false is prevented by our prejudices, by our conditioning. With that understanding, let us proceed.

Now the question is, is there not truth in religions, in theories, in ideals, in beliefs? Let us examine. What do we mean by religion? Surely, not organised religion, not Hinduism, Buddhism, or Christianity - which are all organised beliefs with their propaganda, conversion, proselytism, compulsion, and so on. Is there any truth in organised religion? It may engulf, enmesh truth but the organised religion itself is not true. Therefore, organised religion is false, it separated man from man. You are a Mussalman, I am a Hindu, another is a Christian or a Buddhist - and we are wrangling, butchering each other. Is there any truth in that? We are not discussing religion as the pursuit of truth, but we are considering if there is any truth in organised religion. We are so conditioned by organised religion to think there is truth in it that we have come to believe that by calling oneself a Hindu one is somebody, or one will find God. How absurd! Sir, to find God, to find reality, there must be virtue. Virtue is freedom, and only through freedom can truth be discovered - not when you are caught in the hands of organised religion, with its beliefs. And is there any truth in theories, in ideals, in beliefs? Why do you have beliefs? Obviously because beliefs give you security, comfort, safety, a guide. In yourself you are frightened, you want to be protected, you want to lean on somebody, and therefore you create the ideal, which prevents you from understanding that which is; therefore an ideal becomes a hindrance to action.

Sir, when I am violent, why do I want to pursue the ideal of non-violent? For the obvious reason that I want to avoid violence, escape from violence. I cultivate the ideal in order not to have to face and to understand violence. Why do I want the ideal at all? It is an impediment. If I want to understand violence, I must try to understand it directly, not through the screen of an ideal. The ideal is false, fictitious, preventing me from understanding that which I am. Look at it more closely, and you will see. If I am violent, to understand violence I do not want an ideal; to look at violence, I do not need a guide. But I like to be violent, it gives me a certain sense of power, and I will go on being violent, though I cover it up with the ideal of non-violence. So the idea is fictitious, it is simply not there. It exists only in the mind; it is an ideal, like a belief, is unreal, false.

Now, why do I want to believe? Surely a man who understands life does not want beliefs. A man who loves, has no beliefs - he loves. It is the man who is consumed by the intellect that has beliefs, because the intellect is always seeking security, protection; it is always avoiding danger, and therefore it builds ideas, beliefs, ideals behind which it can take shelter.

What would happen if you deal with the violence directly now? You would be a danger to society; and because the mind foresees the danger, it says, 'I will achieve the ideal of non-violence ten years later' - which is such a fictitious, false process.

So, theories - we are not dealing with mathematical theories, and all the rest of it, but the theories that arise in connection with our human, psychological problems - theories, beliefs, ideals, are false because they prevent us from seeing things as they are. To understand what is, is more important to create and follow ideals; because ideals are false, and that which is is the real . To understand what is requires an enormous capacity, a swift and unprejudiced mind. It is because we don't want to face and understand what is that we invent the many ways of escape and give them lovely names as the ideal, the belief, God.

Surely, it is only when I see the false as the false that my mind is capable of perceiving what is true. A mind that is confused in the false, can never find the truth. Therefore, I must understand what is false in my relationships, in my ideas, in the things about me; because, to perceive the truth requires the understanding of the false.

Without removing the causes of ignorance, there cannot be enlightenment; and to seek enlightenment when the mind is unenlightened is utterly empty, meaningless. Therefore, I must begin to see the false in my relationships with ideas, with people, with things. When the mind sees that which is false then that which is true comes into being: and then there is ecstasy, there is happiness."


Interesting piece. The bottom line I think it "theories, beliefs, ideals, are false because they prevent us from seeing things as they are"... discuss....

joseph dawton

I see the point, but in order to get to the position of seeing things how they are you need a starting point. That is what you grow up with, humans need a frame of reference in order to make sense of the world, that's why religions exist. One has to transcend that view we inherit but achieving that is not so easy. Looking at other beliefs and philosophies is a way to put your own into perspective and after enough searching you arrive at a point of understanding about the whole concept of religion and existence. I think it's virtually impossible to go about it any other way - all human experience is social and relative; I've never met anyone who who arrived at an 'enlightened' state by simply 'removing their blinkers' if you like, deprogramming oneself is a long and difficult learning (or should I say unlearning) process.

http://www.electricpublications.com

Dagon

joseph dawton wrote:

I see the point, but in order to get to the position of seeing things how they are you need a starting point.

deprogramming oneself is a long and difficult learning (or should I say unlearning) process.

I totally agree. But we have realised that deprogrammig oneself is necessary. This is one of the problems I have with K, he doesn't give people much of a starting point. Everything he has said here is true, but sometimes we are not capable of just letting go. Perhaps religions are there to help people find the truth, to help with looking.

But at the end of the day, the truth is that humans are - as you say - programmed. K is attacking this very notion of "becoming" programmed at the roots, and maybe we should be asking the question - why is this "long and difficult unlearning process" necessary? It is necessary because of society. Then we realise that society imposes all these obstacles to the truth, and you have to change yourself to find the truth... sometime, in some world, maybe the very process of programming can cease? Could we cease to program our children? And ourselves? And get to the stage where there isn't a need for false things such as idols, ideals, etc...?

MeditationMom

Dagon wrote:

But we have realised that deprogrammig oneself is necessary. This is one of the problems I have with K, he doesn't give people much of a starting point. Everything he has said here is true, but sometimes we are not capable of just letting go. Perhaps religions are there to help people find the truth, to help with looking.

Could we cease to program our children? And ourselves? And get to the stage where there isn't a need for false things such as idols, ideals, etc...?

I love K, but only warmed up to him late in my search. He used to be too intellectual for me, saying in too, too many words, what others were saying much simpler and to the point. As far as deprogramming goes, here is one of my favorite quotes and I don't know who said it: " That, which is an absense in an infant (that which we love so much in a newborn child and are so willing to serve, give our lives for etc.) becomes a presence in a sage ( aka enlightened one)
What is this absence, presence, and this thing that is being programmed and needs to be deprogrammed, but the "I"?! There is no "I" in the child.

Our normal "I" is all the things we identify with, and that is a lot! Some of it can be blamed on society, but it is a dangerous trap to asign this blame to something outside of yourself, like society, parents, priests. They try to help you and protect you just as you are already doing by yourself with this automatic mechanism of identification.
If you were to sign up for a workshop, for example, to deprogram yourself. lots of them available for your pretty penny, the pealing of the onion of yourself would be endless. You'd endlessly discover what you are identified with and then "YOU" - who we still don't know who or what that is - decide "to let go". "Who" is letting go?

We can understand the "Absense" in an infant. But what is it then that becomes a "Presence?"
It is the realization that there is no "I" to begin with and that there never was or will be,
- and then NOT falling back into the trap of identifying with that, but rather just living and being "that".

Back to your quote- "perhaps religions are there to help, to help with looking" -
right on!!!
Like a boat, helping you across the river. No use fighting over who has the best boat, just keep paddling, or concentrate on setting the sails right.
( Very, very few souls can just swim all the way by themselves. As you said - we need a starting point - and only in the very end we need to jump off the boat and swim the last few hundred yards to the beach by ourselves).
Vigilance, watchfulness, attention while sailing. No harm switching boats along the way, a boat is a boat. Maybe useful discussing how good the boat is, what could be fixed, how the people on it are behaving ( like molesting priests on the catholic boat ) , or wether the captain (popes and gurus) really know what they are doing.
Some faith in the boat and certainly trust and faith in the unknown, unimaginable distant shore is helpful. But even atheists will eventually return home, inspite of themselves. And since the earth is round, and since the beginning is the end, and since eternity is now, even if someone sails in the completly "wrong" direction ( maybe if he is a satanist ) guess where he/she will end up. All things return to God. We are all One, already.
And here's a hug from "me" to "you".

shreeradha

I think religion is THEORY. How you interpret it is up to you. And to prove any theory true or false, you need to know the theory in detail.

Just because theory is misused by people, it does not become false.

Democracy has given rise to demagogues, corrupt persons at the top, criminals in power....Even getting justice is a problem and many people don't even try for justice...

Money has created classes..haves and have nots...

What you say Democracy is false? Most stupid statement. Systems in itself is excellent, it is being misused. If democracy is followed in its real spirit, it would lead to heaven like states on the earth.

So are the religions. If you put them to use in their real spirit, you will see a different world all together. Truth that religions want you to seek is eternal and infinite. A state of never-ending joy..

Because that infinity dimension is missing from any of the joy and excitement in this world, religions say the joy that you are getting is false....a pseudo joy.

To me religions are definitely directing you towards an eternal truth..Hence religions cannot be termed as false.

angelman121

Religions are the epitome of separation, they all teach of an outside god, the creator and the created separated by time and sin and karma. All religions have their own rules and regulations or boundaries that create us and them, mine and yours, this is also separation. Truth cannot be one thing for one and a different thing for another. For truth to be true for all it must be the same for all, with no room for interpretation or manipulation, so in this regard it cannot be found in religions as they are all open to interpretation and manipulation. Truth can be found by religious people within themselves, but not within the religion(s) which are based on belief systems and theories.


Truth is a living (breathing) experience (for humans). What -I am-is (my) truth despite what I believe truth to be. When I am angry (or experience) that is my truth -anger. When I am sad (experience) that is my truth - sadness. When I experience love, that is my truth.
This is the truth that is common to all humans - feelings- regardless of religious or cultural background. However religions (most of) do point towards truth by means of teaching of introspection and responsibility, but pointing the way to truth does not equate to being or holding truth (a sign post on a journey pointing the way may contain the same name as your destination but it’s not your destination).

I am not familiar with K in the O.P. but I resonate with the teachings I read here. Truth is a spiritual creation, as the human cannot create (it’s only power is choice) it being a vehicle or tool for spirit. Humans can discover dissect and re-jig what they find around them into many different forms and call it creating but it can only ever be manipulation or re-jigging what is created (outside of them) already.

Spirit creates your inner reality or 'your truth’. When you feel sad or angry you are creating this within, when you feel love and gratitude you are creating this within. I (every I) have/has the power to create truth. Truth is created NOW (only ever NOW) by living being(s) and is not to be found in anything outside of 'the self'. the outside will reflect back or mirror 'your truth' and religious beliefs are outside of you and instilled into you (or sometimes chosen) as just another aspect of a bigger outside world reflecting back your truth and in the case of religion it is showing a belief and experience in separation (when one is complete within or at one with ‘all’ (god in a very loose term) religion is not needed, but religions do not teach you to do this). So in answer to the question “can truth be found in religion”, NO, truth is not found in religion but within (you).