Maynooth - Bray train this morning

clubcrown

A question for any of the P11 people in the know; how does it work insurance and safety wise if a train travels with broken windows and non-functioning doors?

This mornings 8.17 from Coolmine to Bray had neither doors on the second carraige working. Thats fine if it broke down on-route; but it must have happened in Maynooth because someone had put stickers on each door saying something along the lines of "Sorry but this door is out of order".

One of the large panes of glass was also shattered, though not fallen in.

My question is this; what happens if theres a fire or emercency on that carraige? All the other carraiges were jammed as as result of the doors not working - if there were a fire it would be chaos, people wouldn't be able to get out either end due to the crowds.

Surely if a train is in this condition it shouldn't leave the station in the first place?

(There were no station announcements and the train was late, though that seems to be par for the course these days )

Cc

John R

More than likely the doors were in working order, they would have isolated them on the carriage with broken glass to prevent people using it.

MarkoP11

Assuming it was the 7:57 Maynooth Bray as its the only train to Bray from Maynooth

It did leave city centre about 3 minutes late and was quite full it stopped in Grand Canal Dock at 8:54 (against 8:51 timetable), full PIS system appeared operational and all external displays where correct, front back and sides, rear unit being 29x29

In this case a train was sent out with a coach locked out of service, the broken window would suggest the doors where locked out to prevent passengers entering the coach for safety reasons, not that the doors where defective, the driver is required to do a full door test before leaving the depot and a train is not allowed into service if that fails.

This is all in full compliance with the rule book where a competent person could not be found to babysit the window in question. The doors controls are isolated and coach gangway doors locked, in an emergency the emergency handle will release the doors that said it appears the damaged coach was locked out so there should not have been anyone in that coach thus no safety issue

Alternative would be to cancel the train totally or uncouple the 4 coach unit and ditch it in Maynooth. Rule book followed, safety not compromised, service operated to reasonable time. I know the overcrowding is crazy but the design passenger limit for the coaches is not possible to achieve in practice

Broombridge vandals would be the best guess, if the train had overnighted in Maynooth (which I don't think happens) the Maynooth vandals have been known to smash train windows

clubcrown

MarkoP11 wrote:

Assuming it was the 7:57 Maynooth Bray as its the only train to Bray from Maynooth

It did leave city centre about 3 minutes late and was quite full it stopped in Grand Canal Dock at 8:54 (against 8:51 timetable), full PIS system appeared operational and all external displays where correct, front back and sides, rear unit being 29x29

- No problems with the displays - the problem was the lack of audible announcements of stops. I was standing beside some spanish people who were asking where we were all the time.

When its that packed you often can't see the internal displays anyway. Its a regular thing - no announcements until we get to tara, then they're switched on. I guess theres a driver change there?

- As regards the rule book; fair enough, that makes sense. Its a frustrating journey at the best of times :-) I was just surprised that they left people in that carraige at all.

The other thing that really annoys me about that route is the driver on the 16.22 Dun Laoghaire - Connolly - Maynooth. He regularly smokes in the cabin, and it blows back into the first set of passengers. I assume this is entirely illegal? Its just until Connolly, and then hes replaced.

cc

MarkoP11

13:35 Rosslare Maynooth is staffed by three different drivers, swapping Rathdrum /Arklow and Connolly. Smoking is covered by the 2004 ban on smoking in the workplace

The software is troublesome, the system is set up automatically when the driver enters the train code into the radio in Maynooth (that would be P630 and upwards) once the train is ready to depart all he has to do is push a button to confirm the display screen at that point the system fires up and the internal displays light up. The driver can override it if the train isn't starting from its timetabled station or is not stopping at certain stations. Instructions are posted on the cab wall. There ain't no GPS behind it, once it knows where is started from and the distances between stops it works it out

There are some classic bugs such as the backwards text which is truly hilarious, quite a few issues have been quashed and I'm quite happy with it when it works. There are issues left but senior Irish Rail management refuse to respond to letters on the issue

paulm17781

clubcrown wrote:

The other thing that really annoys me about that route is the driver on the 16.22 Dun Laoghaire - Connolly - Maynooth. He regularly smokes in the cabin, and it blows back into the first set of passengers. I assume this is entirely illegal? Its just until Connolly, and then hes replaced.

Complain. That is totally illegal. Smoking ban and what not.

Another example of CIE employees being above the law (yes I still see bus drivers doing this too).

Victor

clubcrown wrote:

This mornings 8.17 from Coolmine to Bray had neither doors on the second carraige working. Thats fine if it broke down on-route; but it must have happened in Maynooth because someone had put stickers on each door saying something along the lines of "Sorry but this door is out of order".

Was the carriage occupied?

_Kaiser_

Victor wrote:

Was the carriage occupied?

clubcrown wrote:

My question is this; what happens if theres a fire or emercency on that carraige? All the other carraiges were jammed as as result of the doors not working - if there were a fire it would be chaos, people wouldn't be able to get out either end due to the crowds.

yes?

MarkoP11

Sounds more like someone thinking the intercarriage doors are required for emergencies, they ain't note single car railcar units

The emergency door release would still work regardless

With the external doors marked out of use there is no entry to the coach unless someone entered via the gangway door which should be locked (though this may not be possible to lock) it would be pretty stupid to enter a coach which has been signed externally as no access

clubcrown

Victor wrote:

Was the carriage occupied?

About 20were standing, the seats were full as far as I could see.

Would have expected the driver to say something over the intercom at some stage asking people to move down the carraige or whatever but he just did the usual "doors are about to close".

thats why it bugged me - no problem with the doors being out of order, but the fact was that there was procatically a full complement of people inside that carraige. Imagine the chaos if a fire or whatever started?

cc

clubcrown

paulm17781 wrote:

Complain. That is totally illegal. Smoking ban and what not.

Another example of CIE employees being above the law (yes I still see bus drivers doing this too).

Its the same guy each time, on the Dun Laoghaire - Connolly bit of the journey; whats worse is that he regularly picks up one of the staff in Dun Laoghaire who rides in the cab with him to Connolly. So the other guy doesn't seem bothered by the smoking either.

Where would one complain to? Seems they're not too receptive to letters.

(Now that I think of it, this is the same driver who thought he was going to Drogheda, announced it over the intercom and put it up on the front of the train. He had to be told by passengers that we were actually going to Maynooth. He may not be the brightest spark )

MarkoP11

Firstly I'm very concerned as to why 100+ people decide to use the gangway doors to enter the coach as thats the only way you could get in

Externally its clear the coach is defective as two doors are marked out of use and window is damaged but still like lemmings...........

In an accident scenario it wouldn't make a difference as the emergency release would work. Following a serious accident most likely the frame would distort so the doors wouldn't open anyway. Standard proceedure is not to evacuate unless absolutely necessary

Ray777

paulm17781 wrote:

Complain. That is totally illegal. Smoking ban and what not.

Another example of CIE employees being above the law (yes I still see bus drivers doing this too).

I've seen drivers of private buses doing that too (and worse, tbh...)

clubcrown

MarkoP11 wrote:

Firstly I'm very concerned as to why 100+ people decide to use the gangway doors to enter the coach as thats the only way you could get in

Externally its clear the coach is defective as two doors are marked out of use and window is damaged but still like lemmings...........

Ever been on the train in question? Its wedged. People climb over each other to get some space to stand, let alone seating.

Particularly seeing as its May, mild outside and the heating is on full blast, a nice empty coach is heaven.

My worry is that the driver didn't seem too worried about it. Anyway, the usual quality service from CIE :-)

MarkoP11

clubcrown wrote:

Its the same guy each time, on the Dun Laoghaire - Connolly bit of the journey; whats worse is that he regularly picks up one of the staff in Dun Laoghaire who rides in the cab with him to Connolly. So the other guy doesn't seem bothered by the smoking either.

Where would one complain to? Seems they're not too receptive to letters.

Writting to Irish Rail is not much fun as responses don't come back, in some cases they fix what you complain about but still no response

Simplest thing is in writing to the Manager Rosslare Intercity Connolly Station stating you wittnessed the driver of the 13:35 Rosslare Maynooth service (its classifed as intercity by its ID) smoking date x time y at place z, against the law and no driver should smoke on duty anyway, customer charter etc

If you don't get no satisfaction there is the Office of Tobacco Control where they welcome tip offs
http://www.otc.ie/smokefree_locall.asp

MarkoP11

clubcrown wrote:

Ever been on the train in question? Its wedged. People climb over each other to get some space to stand, let alone seating.

Particularly seeing as its May, mild outside and the heating is on full blast, a nice empty coach is heaven.

My worry is that the driver didn't seem too worried about it. Anyway, the usual quality service from CIE :-)

My record for a single 20 minute journey stands as witnessing 3 separate people collapse within 10 minutes, the second and third to collapse did it in perfect sync, they where the 3 I saw, I'm sure there was more, the train infront was delayed waiting for an ambulance to deal with another, I've been there

In this case this is a breech of the safety rules as no passenger should have been in the coach where more than one door on one side is indicated as being defective (not openable by passenger in the normal way counts as defective)

Choice left to the driver was cancel train or run train, proceedure followed correctly, now he should have locked the gangway doors but I'm not sure there is a lock mechanism. In fact it would not be possible for the driver to know there where people in the coach, unless he flicked the CCTV on which by default is not displayed on the train management screen

From what I could see the AC was on and working on the train in question

This is the end result of a brick thrown by a vandal in Broombridge, I'd wager money on that

If you wish to complain you are best off avoiding IE and going straight for the safety people http://www.transport.ie/transport/railwaysafety/index.asp?lang=ENG&loc=1588

parsi

Ray777 wrote:

I've seen drivers of private buses doing that too (and worse, tbh...)

And taxi-drivers.. then again some people would say that they _are_ above the law....

Charles Darwin

I'm interested in a couple of things about this train as well.

Was Fletch on it?

And did he have a ticket this time?

paulm17781

clubcrown wrote:

Where would one complain to? Seems they're not too receptive to letters.

I can't remember. Who is responsible for enforcing the smoking ban, EPA?

paulm17781

Ray777 wrote:

I've seen drivers of private buses doing that too (and worse, tbh...)

Doesn't matter. It is still illegal. Did you complain? If not you have no frame of reference. If you did, well done, more people like you and maybe one day people will realise they should obey laws.

clubcrown

Charles Darwin wrote:

I'm interested in a couple of things about this train as well.

Was Fletch on it?

And did he have a ticket this time?

Maybe I'm being thick, but ?

Was fun again this morning, why do they put the bloody aircon on in May? 2 people fainted on my coach. :rolleyes:

MiniD

Report the driver to the OTC (Office Of Tobacco Control). Aside from the smoking ban, there is a total ban on smoking on public transport anyway so it is totally unacceptable. Quote the dates and times of the train in question.

Call the Smoke-Free Compliance Line on 1890 333100.
Or log onto www.otc.ie

MarkoP11

clubcrown wrote:

Maybe I'm being thick, but ?

Its a cheap gag about another boarder

Was fun again this morning, why do they put the bloody aircon on in May? 2 people fainted on my coach. :rolleyes:

The AC in the front 4 coaches was not working, it was off. Rear 4 where fine, you could have asked the driver to confirm the AC was on, there are 2 independent AC packs per coach, one of which should be enough. The thermostat setting has come in for some complaint in the past but it was adjusted a while back. Its fairly simple on/off switch

People need to wise up and avoid heavy coats during the summer months, people need to eat a decent breakfast and for heaven sake if you have a hangover don't even think about getting a packed train its not a nice experience

The key issue here is the continuning delays and refusal of government to release the funds, the city centre signalling project was to be complete in 2003 won't start till 2007 now. Everything that can carry a passenger is in service and not one single new suburban railcar is on order nor have IE issued a tender. I've seen the rolling stock needs for the medium term and unless the DoT start releasing funds its only going to get worse

Victor

paulm17781 wrote:

I can't remember. Who is responsible for enforcing the smoking ban, EPA?

Office of Tobacco Control http://www.otc.ie/smokefree_locall.asp and environmental health inspectors in local authorities.

clubcrown

MarkoP11 wrote:

Its a cheap gag about another boarder


The AC in the front 4 coaches was not working, it was off.

Not sure where you get your info, but I was in the second coach and the hot air was pumping out.

Its a rare day that its actually off, even though there were several days in the winter - when it was needed - when it wasn't on.

No internal displays or announcements today either!

I agree with you about people not wearing coats etc in summertime, but once May comes around theres no need to have either hot or cold air blowing through that train - theres so many people on it that its quite toasty anyway :-)

MarkoP11

What I got was 4 coaches with misted windows (classic sign of AC problem) and 4 normal clear, that means AC off or indeed the heating on full

You can moan all you like but unless you take the initiative and inform the driver what else can be done, the driver could then adjust/switch on/off etc

IE management are lazy complaints dont get answered and if they do the truth is often quite different, moan if you want but two things are clear
1) If the train is defective and the driver is not aware it is only reasonable to inform the driver of the issue, thats basic safety and common sense, the driver can then deal with it or log it on the fault card to be fixed, no one complains it could go unnoticed. Heating is not on the checklist for service.
2) Overcrowding is a result of a lack of investment and the continuing (even under Transport 21) unwillingness to take serious action in the short term

It may come as a suprise but Irish Rail had a fairly substainal coach manufacturing business running until 1989 when the government pulled the funding to keep it rolling, the production line closed with a need for 20 more coaches immediately that lead to a continuous deficit which still afflicts the system today everything is about 10 years out of sync

clubcrown

MarkoP11 wrote:

What I got was 4 coaches with misted windows (classic sign of AC problem) and 4 normal clear, that means AC off or indeed the heating on full

You can moan all you like but unless you take the initiative and inform the driver what else can be done, the driver could then adjust/switch on/off etc

Heating on full then I guess.

Its hard to go complain to the driver - I did when I go to Dun Laoghaire and he apologised (!), but at the time the heat is on you're stuck in a crowd of people so how do you complain then?

Ah well. I suppose its not as bad as the tube in london in July

MarkoP11

clubcrown wrote:

Heating on full then I guess.

Its hard to go complain to the driver - I did when I go to Dun Laoghaire and he apologised (!), but at the time the heat is on you're stuck in a crowd of people so how do you complain then?

1200 people on board, 150 a coach someone somewhere should have the wit to say something

Ah well. I suppose its not as bad as the tube in london in July

Its nothing in comparision to London they at least they hand out free bottles of water and have people out keeping an eye on things not to mention a fantastic website which explains everything in simple terms

clubcrown

MarkoP11 wrote:

1200 people on board, 150 a coach someone somewhere should have the wit to say something

I did, in Dun Laoghaire.

But you have to be realistic - its rush hour, people are arriving their stops and have 6 mins or whatever to get into the office. I have it down to a fine art at this point, leaving the house one minute late throws my entire routine out of whack