2 NLHE hands - did I extract full value?

El Stuntman

I won both of these hands uncontested but was feeling somewhat unhappy that I did not make more of them...any thoughts?

Both Full ring NL on Vegasbaby, standard of play = baaaaaaad.

Hand 1 - I have Ah 6h in the BB. Six limpers (hey, it's Vegasbaby!).
Villain is LAG and in late position on this hand. He has been sucking out repeatedly with hands such as J6soooted. Plays nearly every hand and has a stack of 300 or so, I cover him.
Flop comes down Q 9 7 all hearts. Bingo!
SB checks, I check, checks around to villain and he bets 10. SB folds, I call, everyone else folds.
Turn is 4c. I check. He bets 25. I call. 'Dont pair the board' is my only thought...although I really don't put him on a set here as he would be betting more (big overbets are his thing).
River is 4d.
I bet the pot (84). He thinks and thinks...and folds.
I take down the pot of 84.

Think I should have checkraised here rather than bet out?

Hand 2 - I have KQsooooted in MP and call.
No reads on villain, he has just joined the table recently. Stack of 200, I'm on about 400.
Villain raises to 5, BB calls, I call.
Flop is K Q 8 rainbow.
BB checks and I bet pot (16). Villain raises to 32.
BB folds.
I call thinking AK if I ever saw it....
Turn is a rag. No flush draw.
I check, he bets a wierd number - 22 or something. I call.
River is another low rag.
I check, he bets small - 20 or so.
I raise to 100.
He folds and I take pot of about 140.

Any way to make more of this one?

delanec8

Play both hands faster imo. Bet the pot on the flop in the first case. If its as loose as you say you are getting action and if they are as bad as you say they wont have you for the nuts with that bet. By betting the pot on the river you allow the villains to get away from their missed draws. You say you don't have him on a big hand so what do you expect him to call a pot sized bet with?

If you have the guy on AK in the 2nd instance then reraise on the flop. Anyone who minraises here with AK is not letting it go. I would make it 90 here.

Slowplaying big hands is not the best way to maximise your winnings, especially on a loose table.

AmarilloFats

Hand 1: Lead out here...You have the nuts build the pot...Get some money outta the Kh..

Hand 2: If your read is AK why not raise his minraise..It's a good chance to stack him..You make it easier for him to get away from AK here!! Oh and don't open limp!!!

fuzzbox

Hand 1 - I lead flop, lead turn, and lead river. If ever he raises, I push.
Hand 2 - I prolly 3-bet the flop, and try to get all-in.

El Stuntman

Thanks dudes.

Excellent advice all-round and looks like I need to get more aggressive in these situations - I have a tendency to let my opponent do the betting when I have a very strong hand!

I still like letting my opponent do the betting on hand 1 as I have the nuts (until that scary 4 hit the river). Hand 2 was poor play I admit and your advice to 3-bet the flop was certainly the right move!

Much appreciated.

fuzzbox

I still like letting my opponent do the betting on hand 1 as I have the nuts

This is typical of a lot of players, and it is a very silly attitude.

El Stuntman

fuzzbox wrote:

This is typical of a lot of players, and it is a very silly attitude.

The guy is overly aggressive and loves stealing pots and making big bets with rags - what's wrong specifically in this case? Let him bet it, says I...my turn play was bad as i should have check-raised to 75 or 100 (my analysis only)

In general I agree with you.

btw are you having a go at me because I dissed your musical tastes?!

RoundTower

I really hate your line in the first hand. Lead the flop and worry not only about the board pairing but also about another heart coming off.

Second one also you are leaving some $ on the table. I would open raise preflop (although limping is OK) and probably lead big on the turn, maybe 70.

El Stuntman

RoundTower wrote:

I really hate your line in the first hand. Lead the flop and worry not only about the board pairing but also about another heart coming off.

Second one also you are leaving some $ on the table. I would open raise preflop (although limping is OK) and probably lead big on the turn, maybe 70.

wtf are you talking about on the first hand? I have the ace of hearts!! I would love to see another heart...hopefully to go with his Kh

yes I agree second hand, in fact I should have re-reraised on the flop

Norwich Fan Rob

lead the first, Kh may still call, top pair, 2 pair etc will still call, if they havent one of those, your not getting anything anyway.
leading disguises your hand somewhat, and builds the pot for later streets.

if they have top pair, 2 pair etc, another heart will kill your action.

fuzzbox

El Stuntman wrote:

The guy is overly aggressive and loves stealing pots and making big bets with rags - what's wrong specifically in this case? Let him bet it, says I...my turn play was bad as i should have check-raised to 75 or 100 (my analysis only)

In general I agree with you.

btw are you having a go at me because I dissed your musical tastes?!

Hi El Stunt
Im not having a go at you at all. I'm having a go at the lines you take, but thats what this is for ... right? Please dont take anything I say personally, as its not intended as such.

As for my musical taste .... pistols at dawn !!!

Now - onto your check/raise thoughts .... this is another common mistake that lots of players tend to make !!! Lead, lead, lead - I check/raise about 0.4% of the time ... which is not very often. You dont know that your villains will bet for you, and even if they do, when you check/raise them you show a LOT of strength, and they might fold, thus getting away for cheap. If you lead, they might raise you, and now you can play for stacks. If YOU check/raise then they can choose to play for stacks, or they can fold and so you might win the minimum.

What bad players do :
1. Flop nothing - check/fold
2. Flop a draw - check/call flop without odds, draw hits turn ... try to check raise ... I check behind ... river blanks they bet, I fold
3. Flop a draw - check/call flop without odds, draw hits turn ... try to check/raise ... I check behind ... river pairs board ... they bet, I push they call !!
4. Flop a draw - check/call flop without odds, draw misses turn ... check/call turn without odds (or check/fold sometimes), draw hits river - lead for a bet, I fold
5. Flop a draw - check/call flop without odds, draw misses turn ... check/call turn withtout odds (or check/fold soemtimes), draw misses river - check/fold to a bet
6. Flop a monster - check.minraise

How hard is it to play against this?

fuzzbox

El Stuntman wrote:

wtf are you talking about on the first hand? I have the ace of hearts!! I would love to see another heart...hopefully to go with his Kh

yes I agree second hand, in fact I should have re-reraised on the flop

Hi El Stunt
your comments presupposes that you are playing a complete moron, who will go to the felt with the Kh in his hand when there are 4 hearts on the board.

What if villain has 6h7h in his hand?
What if he has just the Kh in his hand and is a moron, but the board DOESNT put a heart on the board?

Charge them full whack to draw.

El Stuntman

fuzzbox wrote:

Hi El Stunt
Im not having a go at you at all. I'm having a go at the lines you take, but thats what this is for ... right? Please dont take anything I say personally, as its not intended as such.

As for my musical taste .... pistols at dawn !!!

Hi Fuzz,

I'm not offended at all...in fact I will dig out my Bros and Chumbawumba albums and lend them to you as a gesture of goodwill....

I think you are 100% right and if I can eliminate this damn check-raising tendency from my game and replace it with a leading mentality then hopefully I can make the jump to the next level (the really scary thing is that I am still making some money at it even with these crappy lines). Thanks for your advice!

El Stuntman

fuzzbox wrote:

Hi El Stunt
your comments presupposes that you are playing a complete moron, who will go to the felt with the Kh in his hand when there are 4 hearts on the board.
.

I am

fuzzbox

Dude - even mentioning that you have a Bros album (or ever had one) ... is sooooo not cool.

fuzzbox

El Stuntman wrote:

I am

Then he will pay full price to draw to his flush AND pay you off if he hits it.

If you dont bet, and it doesnt hit, then you have left money on the table.

Charge him full price for both situations.

RoundTower

El Stuntman wrote:

wtf are you talking about on the first hand? I have the ace of hearts!! I would love to see another heart...hopefully to go with his Kh

yes I agree second hand, in fact I should have re-reraised on the flop

If he has the Kh and no pair then yes you want him to hit another heart. But if he has say a set or two pair or a small flush or overvalues top pair (and even if none of these are all that likely, together they are much more likely than the bare Kh), then he will give you a lot of money until the extra heart comes off. After all, your hand looks like the bare Ah to villain.

I'm not sure about three betting the flop in the second hand, maybe you are over representing your hand here given that he is unlikely to have a smaller two pair and the board is not particularly drawish. I would prefer to call a raise and bet out on the turn, this never works when I am bluffing so it is probably good here. But if you think he will stack off with AK then OK reraise good and big.

Drakar

What size raises would be suggested here. I sometimes wonder too if I get full value in situations like this. Betting say pot sized would be bound to scare off most hands that you want to stay in (like 6h7h, or kh). Min raising often looks too suspicious and doesn't really build up the pot much. I've been raising about half the pot to make it look like a steal which often gets raised by top pair et al.

El Stuntman

fuzzbox wrote:

Dude - even mentioning that you have a Bros album (or ever had one) ... is sooooo not cool.

how can you say that? surely you could use 'when will I be famous?' as a thread title some day.

failing that, 'I Owe you Nothing' (nothing at all) sounds like an ideal pokah tune?

RoundTower

Drakar wrote:

What size raises would be suggested here. I sometimes wonder too if I get full value in situations like this. Betting say pot sized would be bound to scare off most hands that you want to stay in (like 6h7h, or kh). Min raising often looks too suspicious and doesn't really build up the pot much. I've been raising about half the pot to make it look like a steal which often gets raised by top pair et al.

are you asking about raising or betting? You will get called for pot or 3/4 pot more than you think.

fuzzbox

El Stuntman wrote:

how can you say that? surely you could use 'when will I be famous?' as a thread title some day.

failing that, 'I Owe you Nothing' (nothing at all) sounds like an ideal pokah tune?

Dude -
Naming a thread after a song is one thing .... owning a Bros album is a totally different thing .... Jeez ... I dont own any of the songs that I used to name threads !!

That would be uncool !!

fuzzbox

Drakar wrote:

What size raises would be suggested here. I sometimes wonder too if I get full value in situations like this. Betting say pot sized would be bound to scare off most hands that you want to stay in (like 6h7h, or kh). Min raising often looks too suspicious and doesn't really build up the pot much. I've been raising about half the pot to make it look like a steal which often gets raised by top pair et al.

Do you fold an all hearts flop when you hold 6h7h and somebody bets the pot?

El Stuntman

fuzzbox wrote:

Dude -
Naming a thread after a song is one thing .... owning a Bros album is a totally different thing .... Jeez ... I dont own any of the songs that I used to name threads !!

That would be uncool !!

completely off topic but this is what one reviewer had to say about Bros's Greatest Hits on Amazon:

I do not apologise for what I'm about to say. This "band" and I use the term loosely were rubbish and extremely manufactured when they first came out in 1988. Their songs are devoid of any artistic talent and I thank them that they have never decided to get back together, I mean why would they one of them actually has a career in hollywood as an actor. Don't buy this please I beg you, if you do then you are frankly mad and your head is full of candy floss (Just like this album)

"frankly mad with a head full of candyfloss". I like that!!:)

Hectorjelly

Probably just be sheer chance but Fuzzbox and Roundtower are completely right, chk raising is only every good with very shallow stacks or if you want to kill a hand off.

Another unmentioned weakness of chk raising is that very few villains will lead 3 times at a such a dangerous board, so you are going to have to interurpt the flow of the hand at some stage. Check call and then lead, and check raising, are both actions that will alert even the worst villains to the fact that you have a big hand. Think about what you would do in the villains case with 2 pair, on the flop if you lead you are likely to raise, but your not likely to raise the river.

The 2nd hand is pretty bad, if theres KQ on the board there are a tonne of cards that you dont want to see. Also players are much more willing (usually) to go to the felt with 1 pair on the flop only.

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

Probably just be sheer chance but Fuzzbox and Roundtower are completely right, chk raising is only every good with very shallow stacks or if you want to kill a hand off.

Its no good coming along after we did all the hard work, and trying to claim all the credit.

I'm gonna form a union with RoundTower, and you aren't invited.