The Devil & God

Suff

I would like to get some feedback & thoughts on this subject. who does the Christians see the Devil. Islam have a view of the Devil that I would say is simular to Jewish and christain views but does the normal people like you and me believe in such charecter?

The Devil...who is he, what is he...a rival to GOD? an Evil Creator? or just a Demon? is he real or fictional? does he live underground like we saw in cartoons ? you know all the questions.


Just a note: I'm not a satanist.

BrianCalgary

I'll give you what I know.

Satan was created by God as an Angel. I think the highest ranking Angel. Satan decided that he wanted to rule Heaven and tried to take it over with an army of angels who agreed with him on his stance. The battle is recounted in Revelation 12:7 to 17.

Satan was cast down to Earth. He hates God for being banished from Heaven and in order to get back at God he spends his time deceiving humans, so that humans will stay away from desiring relationship with God.

Satan is real, I have met him, and he is absolutely vile. I really pity anyone who falls prey to his lies and deciet. He is not a cartoon character. One of his deceptions is to convince peopel that he doesn't exist, after all why should we have to contend with something that doesn't exist. Revelation talks about Satan living in a pit, hence the description of Hell being underground. I don't think it is nor is Heaven in the sky. They are places of spiritual existence. One of unbelievable love and harmony, the other of horrible torment.

Asiaprod

BrianCalgary wrote:

Satan is real, I have met him, and he is absolutely vile.

Please do tell about this meeting

robindch

> One of his deceptions is to convince peopel that he doesn't exist, after
> all why should we have to contend with something that doesn't exist.

Well, in the USA, most people seem to believe that he does exist:

http://www.trinity.edu/~mkearl/devilint.jpg

So, if he does exist, then this particular deception isn't very well executed in the USA at least!

Anyhow, I'd also be interested to hear how you met, and what happened when you did (if it's not too personal).

BrianCalgary

Hey Robin, No not too personal. It is difficult to describe. It always happens in a dream. Because of the intensity of the emotion and the switch between awake and asleep, you know by the experience whether or not it is real. Last night I had a dream that contained a spiritual battle and it was clearly a dream as opposed to a visit.

During the time when Satan is there the feeling of intense evil is unbelievable. I find that the only way rid of him is to repeat the Lords prayer. It is a rejection of Satan and a time of reiterating your faith in God. The Holy Spirit responds quite nicely and beats Satan off. The fealing of peace that comes is amazing. It has happened 5 or 6 times in my life. They all happend when I was single and engaged and in the first few years of marriage.

He is as real as the computer I'm typing on. I have no idea why God would allow it to happen. Maybe it was to make me understand the spititual battle that we are up against in the world. As any good coach you have to understand the opposition and how they operate in order to beat them.

Thanks for th equestion.

Asiaprod

BrianCalgary wrote:

During the time when Satan is there the feeling of intense evil is unbelievable. I find that the only way rid of him is to repeat the Lords prayer.
Thanks for th equestion.

Creepy, do you ever get to see him, or do you just feel him present? Thanks for sharing this with us.

UU

Well I'm an Air sign according to Astrology and if any of you know me, I'm quite a realist and rationalist thinker. Perhaps that's why I'm so attracted to anything out of the norm and Unitarianism.

I sort of believe in the Devil but not as the Bible portrays it with a battle nor a red creature with pointy horns and a tail but rather a negative energy who is a destroyer. Basically opposite is Allah (God) who is a positive energy and a creator. I'm not so cynical about Satan as Taoism teaches that good and bad must exist hand in hand as represents by the Yin and Yang sort of like the magnetic field. I also believe that when we do bad deeds like murder and nastiness, we possess negative energy but rather when we pray and show compassion, we possess positive energy. I've developed quite an interest in Astrology and Eastern Philosophy recently due to my own nature!

P.S. Brian if you encounter the Devil again make sure you don't accept his offer of gambling cards as in the famous Irish story "Cearrbhach MacCaba".

BrianCalgary

Asiaprod wrote:

Creepy, do you ever get to see him, or do you just feel him present? Thanks for sharing this with us.

Never seen him. Just felt the intense presence.

PS UU - I'd lovr to read that story. Unfortunately Irish stories are tough to come by. maybe my next rtip over.

http://lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml
An interesting read

as is this
http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=cache:pK2foFu3bKAJ:www.midbible.ac.uk/html/Docs/FallOfSatan.pdf+morning+star+satan

love4all

as stated in the bible ,the"Devil" was 1 of Gods most highest ranking angels called Lucifer.He had power and Authority appointed by God but he became very jealous of God and wanted all the glory for himself so he started using his power against God.God then saw this and appointed Michael another angel to take care of Lucifer who was banned from Heaven.he still had power but not in Heaven and therefore is using his power in the world today against man.and unfortunately we surcome to it every day but trust in the Lord and the Devil cannot harm u.

Son Goku

BrianCalgary wrote:

Satan was created by God as an Angel. I think the highest ranking Angel. Satan decided that he wanted to rule Heaven and tried to take it over with an army of angels who agreed with him on his stance. The battle is recounted in Revelation 12:7 to 17.

This I never understood. Satan must be one of the stupidest entities ever. His opponent in his war against heaven was God, an omnipotent being with the power to remake reality as he sees fit.

How did Satan think he could win?

Anne Rice's interpretation of satan going rebel was because he was such a doubter of god and god's works, that makes more sense to me
And yes I know she writes fiction but it makes more sense I think

Son Goku

bluewolf wrote:

Anne Rice's interpretation of satan going rebel was because he was such a doubter of god and god's works, that makes more sense to me
And yes I know she writes fiction but it makes more sense I think

Her Satan is very like Milton's(from Paradise Lost). He had really strong interest in humanity, but didn't agree with God's methods of communicating with us.

BrianCalgary

Son Goku wrote:

This I never understood. Satan must be one of the stupidest entities ever. His opponent in his war against heaven was God, an omnipotent being with the power to remake reality as he sees fit.

How did Satan think he could win?

I agree. one of the stupidest moves of all time.

Satan thought he could win because of his vanity. That is my opinion anyway.

God Bless

Suff

Good thread huh?,...from what I have got so far there are some differences between the Christian and the Islamic view on the topic.

Iblis is the name of the Devil as it was revealed in the Quran by GOD.


To give the Islam view to the Devil is best given directly from the Quraan:
Please note that this is an Englis Translation of the Quraan.

Surah 2 The Cow, chapter 2, 30-39

"30.Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."

31. And He taught Adam the nature of all things; then He placed them before the angels, and said: "Tell me the nature of these if ye are right."

32. They said: "Glory to Thee, of knowledge We have none, save what Thou Hast taught us: In truth it is Thou Who art perfect in knowledge and wisdom."

33. He said: "O Adam! Tell them their natures." When he had told them, Allah said: "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of heaven and earth, and I know what ye reveal and what ye conceal?"

34. And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith.

35. We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

36. Then did Satan make them slip from the (garden), and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said: "Get ye down, all (ye people), with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood - for a time."

37. Then learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful.

38. We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

39. "But those who reject Faith and belie Our Signs, they shall be companions of the Fire; they shall abide therein."

-more

Surah 7. The Heights , 11-25

11. It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who bow down.

12. ((Allah)) said: "What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?" He said: "I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay."

13. ((Allah)) said: "Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures)."

14. He said: "Give me respite till the day they are raised up."
[meaning judgement Day]

15. ((Allah)) said: "Be thou among those who have respite."

16. He said: "Because thou hast thrown me out of the way, lo! I will lie in wait for them on thy straight way:

17. "Then will I assault them from before them and behind them, from their right and their left: Nor wilt thou find, in most of them, gratitude (for thy mercies)."
[here what in Islam we believe where the Iblis exists, in our mind, he come from within us, whispering]

18. ((Allah)) said: "Get out from this, disgraced and expelled. If any of them follow thee,- Hell will I fill with you all.
[meaining the Devil and the people who follow him, this however does not mean satanists, people who rejected God's path.]
19. "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden, and enjoy (its good things) as ye wish: but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."

20. Then began Satan to whisper suggestions to them, bringing openly before their minds all their shame that was hidden from them (before): he said: "Your Lord only forbade you this tree, lest ye should become angels or such beings as live for ever."

21. And he swore to them both, that he was their sincere adviser.

22. So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shame became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: "Did I not forbid you that tree, and tell you that Satan was an avowed enemy unto you?"

23. They said: "Our Lord! We have wronged our own souls: If thou forgive us not and bestow not upon us Thy Mercy, we shall certainly be lost."

24. ((Allah)) said: "Get ye down. With enmity between yourselves. On earth will be your dwelling-place and your means of livelihood,- for a time."

25. He said: "Therein shall ye live, and therein shall ye die; but from it shall ye be taken out (at last)."

from the same surrah

22. "If a suggestion from Satan assail thy (mind), seek refuge with Allah. for He heareth and knoweth (all things)"

Surah 8. Spoils Of War

"48.Remember Satan made their (sinful) acts seem alluring to them, and said: "No one among men can overcome you this day, while I am near to you": But when the two forces came in sight of each other, he turned on his heels, and said: "Lo! I am clear of you; lo! I see what ye see not; Lo! I fear Allah. for Allah is strict in punishment."



In Islam Satan (Shatan in Arabic) is a Lord of the Jinn created from fire, he envied Adam as GOD prefered him to all creations.
his revenge is taken by making humans (Adams children) stray from the path GOD has set for us.

Satan is terrifed from GOD but he wants to take with him to Hell as many of us as he can as stated in the text above.

However Satan has no power over any person if they seek refuged in GOD
by saying
"I seek refuge in Allah from rejected Satan, In The Name Of Allah the most merciful most compassionate"

Hagar

Has anyone read the novel "Black Easter" by James Blish?

The basic premise is that there is indeed a war between God and Satan.
As in all wars both sides predict victory over their enemy. In this particular battle Satan wins and assumes the Throne of Heaven and God is cast down. But they are both immortal and powerful so the war goes on. This time the roles are reversed, God is trying to usurp Satan.
Satan is effectively God and God is effectively Satan.
So the war continues for all eternity with roles being reversed time after time.

A very interesting idea don't you think?

Now all we have to do is guess who is on the Throne at the moment and pick a side...

Tchocky

From Milton, whose interpretation is interesting, at least

Lucifer was one of the most beautiful angels, and on a close level with God. Lucifer objected to Jesus's introduction between angels and God, where the angels had served for so long, Jesus became 2nd-in-command after 33 years. Lucifer raised an army and the war in heaven raged for three days. God held Jesus back until the third day, "holding the glory" for his son, while angels died on both sides. jesus cast Lucifer and his followers down to Hell, where they built Pandaemonium

"better to rule in Hell, than serve in Heaven"

MeditationMom

Spooky Thread :eek:

The Devil does have to be faced on our way to God. Otherwise, we'd all be there already, wouldn't we.

To fear and fight the Devil makes him stronger and we become like him - as in the evil behavior of some Christians during the Middle Ages, or today.

To defeat him we need to meet him with Love, and Peace, and our Trust in God or Jesus, just as Brian did, by reciting the Lord's prayer. (This is talking in Christians terms- for other faiths and believe systems this has to be expressed differently)

I also experienced "the Devil", very similarly, several times - three times to be exact and can confirm the description of tremendous evil, vileness, power - and also that "he" is defeated with Peace, and Love, a "no fear of death" Trust, a Knowing of Good, and of Eternal Life. It is not the prayer - as in a magic set of words - but the trust in the prayer and in the one who gave the prayer to us, that is at work.

The other thing I can attest to is the experience happeneing around the time of a new relationship or a strong shift in an old one. A psychologist would tell you that you have suppressed your sexuality, and think of it as evil, by buying into religious conditioning, but it is not so in this experience. The Devil, or Evil, especially when experienced like this, is nothing but the sum of all of our own fears, desires, greed, which includes the powerful Fear of Death. , and, I am a little reluctant to say, the vileness is the sum of our body's slimey, rotting, stinking, dying etc. etc reality.

Usually we are aware of a desire or two, or fearing something, or some bad breath, but when becoming aware of all that is there, at once- it is pretty powerful indeed. It makes sense that it would happen around a time when we are enjoying the fullfilment of a strong desire, involving the whole body. There is nothing evil or wrong in the fullfilment of physical desire, or there would be no life, and it is an excellent time to watch the mechanism of fear, trust, love etc and of how it all works.

The opposite of fear and desire is Love. In order to meet this level of "Evil" a great Love is required, a Love that is far beyond Human Love. A Love and Trust beyond Reason. Strangely enough, Brian's blind faith, even in the most illogical and maybe even wrong teachings of the Bible, has served him well. :rolleyes: Go figure.

There is a lot more, still to come. Much more Trust, much more Love still required. :eek: - for those of you out there wanting to become enlightened, especially, it is needed NOW!

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

The Holy Spirit responds quite nicely and beats Satan off. The fealing of peace that comes is amazing.

Ooh, Matron!

Just to clear something up. The name "Lucifer" appears not once in the Bible, Torah or Quran. It is a Latin word meaning "Light Bringer", originally associated with the planet Venus. It has only recently (in the last millennium) come to be associated with Satan, and before and since then has been used as an appellation for a number of historical figures, contemporary potentates and churchmen, and Christ himself.

Anto McC

I think the devil is someone we use to embody evilness!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I had a dream I could fly.

I have more to say, but I'm just gona go jump off the roof and float around for a bit. I'll respond more later

Ivan

As funny as I find his particular comment, I cant help but agree with the underlying point there.

I once had a dream that I was a transformer and could turn into a plane and fly around. It was the most surreal experience of my life, because I fully believe I was conscious, for lack of a better term, at the time. In this dream I was in complete control and could do whatever I wanted as a transformer.

My point, is that dreams are incredibly misleading, by their very nature and to say through one you had an experience of Satan and by extension, God, is far-fetched at best, imho. In less sophisticated times, we might have burned you as a witch...

Of course, this is just Satan acting through me, to create doubt about his existence, so whatever.

kiffer

BrianCalgary wrote:

During the time when Satan is there the feeling of intense evil is unbelievable. I find that the only way rid of him is to repeat the Lords prayer.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Never seen him. Just felt the intense presence.

Have you ever heard of Sleep Paralysis? Symptoms include paralysis (duh) and imagining that evil things are present in the room with you, and is supposidly linked with alien abductions, incubi and succubi, and such things.

I'm not saying that the Devil doesn't exist or even that he doesn't vist you in your sleep, it's just that if the Devil does exist God must also exist, and I don't think that God would actualy allow the direct communication between the Devil and a human... after all God would be much much more powerful.

kiffer

I've had sleep paralysis a number of times both as a child and as an adult, once when I was a child I'd had a nightmare, woke up and got my mum, who got in to bed with me to keep me safe.
She fell asleep and I started to drift off feeling safer with her there...
and just as I was falling asleep a glowing red face came out of the wall... and started talking to me ... telling me horrible things. I paniced and found that I couldn't move, the most I could do was shake a little. eventualy the face went back into the wall and I could move, at which point I woke my mum up.

More recently I was in bed and and found I couldn't move ... I thought that an Evil wind was blowing through my room and started to panic, then i thought my mum came into the room and threw a t-shirt at me... which was odd because it was the middle of the night and I knew this... the t-**** missed me but it caused me to try to flinch, but I couldn't move, and I became more lucent although still paniced, I started to try to say Help, but my voice wasn't working and I managed to shake my head a little from right to left. this shaking woke my GF who started asking "what's wrong? what's wrong?", after a few more head shakes with me fighting to make some sort of noise but only producing a weazed Hehhhh sound she shook my shoulder and snapped me out of it.
I remembered every thing she said to me while I was paralysed and could clearly see her sitting up in the bed.She said the only part of my body moving was my head, and that my eyes were open. It really scared her...

MeditationMom

Kiffer wrote:

Have you ever heard of Sleep Paralysis? Symptoms include paralysis (duh) and imagining that evil things are present in the room with you, and is supposidly linked with alien abductions, incubi and succubi, and such things.

Kiffer wrote:

I'm not saying that the Devil doesn't exist or even that he doesn't vist you in your sleep, it's just that if the Devil does exist God must also exist, and I don't think that God would actualy allow the direct communication between the Devil and a human... after all God would be much much more powerful.

Kiffer wrote:

More recently I was in bed and and found I couldn't move ... I thought that an Evil wind was blowing through my room and started to panic, then i thought my mum came into the room and threw a t-shirt at me... which was odd because it was the middle of the night and I knew this... the t-**** missed me but it caused me to try to flinch, but I couldn't move, and I became more lucent although still paniced, I started to try to say Help, but my voice wasn't working and I managed to shake my head a little from right to left. this shaking woke my GF who started asking "what's wrong? what's wrong?", after a few more head shakes with me fighting to make some sort of noise but only producing a weazed Hehhhh sound she shook my shoulder and snapped me out of it.
I remembered every thing she said to me while I was paralysed and could clearly see her sitting up in the bed.She said the only part of my body moving was my head, and that my eyes were open. It really scared her.

Ivan wrote:

My point, is that dreams are incredibly misleading, by their very nature and to say through one you had an experience of Satan and by extension, God, is far-fetched at best, imho. In less sophisticated times, we might have burned you as a witch...

Ivan, this is a really good point. These "dreams" are different from regular dreams. They are common meditation experiences, and in different cultures the brain "explains" them differently to the experiencer. Christians will experience the "Devil" or "Satan", other cultures that have different figures or images representing evil, will see those. Same with "God-Dreams" - or "Being-in- Heaven" experiences. Totally dependent on culture and stories. Not to be taken literally, and no problem to meet them with what your culture or religion teaches you on "how to protect yourself from the Devil".

When encountering this vileness, evil, power, think "no-resistance". If you need to use a prayer, do so - whatever relaxes you, or really makes you feel safe, or makes you feel protected by a power greater than yourself, like God.
(A person to make you feel safe, next to you, will neither help nor harm.) It has to be something from the inside, be it a prayer or just a deep trust.

Otherwise, the more you fight it the stronger it gets. Surrender, in other words. The immobility is still a fight on your part. You are fighting to move or talk. All it is, is the body being left behind and you "going" where you "go", when you "go" to sleep. ("go" is the wrong word, but there is no better one).

On the way to sleep, or on the way back from sleep to regular consciousness, you are experiencing something at a more conscious level than usual.

This "place", or better getting there, is something too shocking to the system of your mind and body, if you remained conscious and experienced it, without preparation. It is where you are when you are asleep and where you are when you are dead. It takes many years of meditation and guidance from a teacher to stay conscious through the whole process and to "take the jump" in the end.

It requires levels of Love and Trust you do not have yet, but it seems you are moving along on your way nicely if you are starting to have these experiences. In all these experiences - immobility, experiencing the presence of evil, vileness, power, wind, sounds, light, unbearable pleasure (believe me- this is one of the worst), pain, like something ripping your flesh, all you need to do is go "no resistance", relax deeper, trust deeper in being safe, feel the love that you are, the love of God, if you believe in God. You are safe.

It is hard for Christians, as the fear of the Devil is so huge. Surrender sounds a little risky to a Christian. It is not a surrendering to the devil. It is like in a martial art, not resisting, and therefore robbing him of his power.

Mordeth wrote:

I had a dream I could fly.

This is a psychological dream. Just enjoy. A little feeling of freedom and weightlessness. But you are asleep already. All you - or better - your brain - is experiencing is a very relaxed body, not experiencing "yourself without a body" or on your way to "beyond the body".

Oh, I can hear Ivan already - how can you experience yourself without a body if it is your brain that does the experiencing? That is where words and language fail. You, without a body, not even a ghostly or angle-like one, cannot really be called an experience - there is no word for it.

Also, you don't necessarily experience all of these above mentioned scenarios, or in any certain sequence. It is very individual. I am mentioning it all, so you understand it, recognize it and don't fear it.

Your ever helpful MeditationMom
So many poor Witches burned at the stake. Maybe not this time for me.:)

kiffer

MeditationMom wrote:

It requires levels of Love and Trust you do not have yet, but it seems you are moving along on your way nicely if you are starting to have these experiences.

*cough* *cough*
I've been having these experiences for over 20 years, so starting is abit inacurate
I really don't think there is anything supernatural or spiritual about them.
They are like Nightmares or Night Terrors. Although not always with fear or panic.
I know a number of people who have had similar experiances, with out a strong set of beliefs to base them on you come up with your own imagery.

I'm happy to agree with one thing you said which is that do whatever you feel you need do to get through it, pray, meditate or what ever, and that fighting it causes panic.
Panic is your worst enemy. I'm pretty lucid during these episodes and as an adult I panic less then as a child ... although I can see that if one believed in aliens, demons or the devil that imagry would be even more desturbing, and would only strengthen that belief.

As for levels of love and trust... You don't really know much about me... so I don't think it's fair to
say that.



To drag the my self back on topic I would say that the devil represents what is worst about human nature... there is no actual entity, I don't think that God would allow such a being to exist.

We, humans, have free will but angels do not, as such an angel would not be in a position too turn against God.
However humans have freewill and it is that free will that allows us to to act in evil ways.
Should the devil exist god would not allow him to control us as that would remove from us our freewill.

I don't know ... in short I don't think I ever believed in the Devil.