Wasnt the whole Luas thing a balls ?

Maskhadov

Short-sighted Luas approach does not work in the long run

On several occasions in 1997 Garret FitzGerald wrote in this column about Luas, Dublin's light-rail tram system.

I argued that because of the volume of traffic that would be generated by the proposed line from Stillorgan (and eventually from Bray) to Stephen's Green and onwards towards the airport, it should be designed and built as a full-fledged metro (i.e. underground) rail system through the city centre rather than as an on-street tram.

I based this argument on official traffic projections made in the early 1990s which I modified to allow for the implications of the Celtic Tiger.

In early 1997 I met the consultants working on the scheme, whose team, most unfortunately, included no economist.

To my absolute astonishment I found that they had taken no account whatever of the Celtic Tiger, but were still publishing - and also using for their planning purposes - traffic estimates based on totally out-of-date data that had been prepared in 1991. This was based, as I recall, on the second-last census of population.

The consultants were unaware that the growth rates of employment and of cars in Dublin since 1991 had been 2.3 times greater than the increases projected six years earlier.

Taking that into account any attempt to cater for eventual demand on this route with trams, even operating at very high frequencies, was going to fail.

In addition, continuing it on-street to O'Connell Street would greatly congest the difficult Dawson Street/Nassau Street corner and the narrow street between Trinity College and the Bank of Ireland - the only south/north street between Westland Row and Christ Church Cathedral.

Dublin Bus tells me that two-thirds of all its buses run through College Green, and it is greatly concerned at the likely impact of Luas on the bulk of its city services.

In 1997 there was immediate strong opposition to my suggestion that the Luas project should be reviewed in the light of these facts.

However, after that year's election, the PDs, returning to government after five years' absence, grasped the half of my argument about congestion in the city centre. Yet they apparently did not grasp the even more crucial element of my case about traffic volumes.

As a result the new government was then persuaded to adopt a short-sighted, half-measure by stopping the Luas tram at Stephen's Green instead of converting it into a metro running in a tunnel from just south of Ranelagh and onwards through the city centre.

As I predicted, Luas traffic volumes have already been much higher than planned.

Indeed, despite the termination of the tram service at Stephen's Green, there have from the outset been problems of capacity shortage at peak hours.

These have occurred both between Heuston and Connolly stations on the Red Line and between Dundrum and Stephen's Green on the Green Line.

At this stage, and because the line has been stopped at Stephen's Green, this capacity problem can be and has promptly been met by adding a new short-distance tram on the Red Line, one that operates only between the two railway stations, and by adding an extra peak-hour service on the Green Line.

However given the huge volume of residential building under way and planned for the foothills of the Dublin Mountains above Stillorgan, the Luas tram, even with much increased frequencies, will not prove capable of coping indefinitely with the traffic volume on this route.

This will be especially so after it is linked at Stephen's Green to a metro running through the city centre to the airport and beyond.

A decision has recently been announced to build a metro from Swords and the airport to Stephen's Green. This, however, will stop at that point instead of continuing as had originally been intended along the present Luas Green Line to Stillorgan and beyond.

Halting it at Stephen's Green means that for years ahead passengers between south Dublin and the airport will have to change and lug their bags between two different levels at Stephen's Green station.

Henry Street shoppers will have to do the same with their purchases.

Instead of taking the opportunity to create now a through metro service between south Dublin, O'Connell Street and the airport, the current plans involve spending money on the construction of two almost parallel Luas and metro lines between Stephen's Green and O'Connell Street.

However, duplicating the new metro between Stephen's Green and O'Connell Street by extending the over-ground Luas even further into the city will disrupt the whole south city centre for several years and, when completed, will slow the passage of two-thirds of our city bus services.

© The Irish Times

I completely agree. We should have built a Metro from Swords - city centre to Sandyford. the whole thing looks stupid now

darkman2

Maskhadov wrote:

I completely agree. We should have built a Metro from Swords - city centre to Sandyford. the whole thing looks stupid now

Yes now lets get down to building roads.:D

'Halting it at Stephen's Green means that for years ahead passengers between south Dublin and the airport will have to change and lug their bags between two different levels at Stephen's Green station.'

OMG those poor southsiders with olny two luas tracks as opposed to the northsides revolutionary, integrated.....erm bus system.

SeanW

That's what I'd always thought - whats the point of doing this Luas Link Up when you're just going to follow it on with the Metro in a few years? Wouldn't it be better for the RPA to run a charter bus back and forth between Abbey St. and St. Stephens Green (with Green Line Luas tickets accepted on it)

Winters

Is this in todays papers? Whats the date on the article?

I agree with whats being said but its too late for 'What ifs'. Correct the problem of having two unconnected lines and build the metro in tandem. In hindsight yes, a tunnell should have been built. Atkins Consulting Engineers answered the call for a report on the issue and the report was binned. Either undergound or overgound but at least they should have been linked at that stage. Political interference is the sole reason.

Bill McH

Garret Fitzgerald wrote:

At this stage, and because the line has been stopped at Stephen's Green, this capacity problem can be and has promptly been met by adding a new short-distance tram on the Red Line, one that operates only between the two railway stations

I presume he's talking here about some trams running only between Heuston and Connolly. I believe that this was to be the plan, but is he right that such services are already in operation?

John R

SeanW wrote:

That's what I'd always thought - whats the point of doing this Luas Link Up when you're just going to follow it on with the Metro in a few years? Wouldn't it be better for the RPA to run a charter bus back and forth between Abbey St. and St. Stephens Green (with Green Line Luas tickets accepted on it)

The linkup is a pointless waste of money and more importantly will have a very bad effect on the commute times for all south east Dublin bus users.

Far more people use these services than the Green line but this pointless extention is going to take over the only roadspace they can use to quickly access the city centre.

The route is going to be duplicated by Metro anyway so what is the point?

shltter

John R wrote:

The linkup is a pointless waste of money and more importantly will have a very bad effect on the commute times for all south east Dublin bus users.

Far more people use these services than the Green line but this pointless extention is going to take over the only roadspace they can use to quickly access the city centre.

The route is going to be duplicated by Metro anyway so what is the point?

The point is trams look sexy

The fact that you are discommoding more people who use buses is of secondary concern

hope that clears it up

Maskhadov

the story is in todays irish times

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/opinion/2006/0506/18027160OP06GARRET.html

I just thought about the link up again and thought it was the most stupid idea going. Also top of the list of stupidity is extending the LUAS south side.

MarkoP11

Everyone knew that the Luas system was a joke in capacity terms, the reason it exists is because the government got cold feet in 1987 and abandoned DART phase 2 (Tallaght/Clondakin), phase 3 (Blanchardstown) and phase 4 (Airport). Phase two became Luas

An offer was made by a private consortium in 1998 to build a DART style metro from Shanganagh to the Airport using the Harcourt Street line, from the little I know it would have worked out very cheap for the government. Mary O'Rourke then minister ignored it. The conspiracy theorists would explain this as the companies involved where not Irish and hadn't been to the Fianna Fail tent at the Galway Races.

What ever happened the politicians killed it and we are paying the price now

The shuttle service between Heuston and Connolly exists but is not running to a formal timetable. It took them over a year to actually make it happen

Maskhadov

LUAS should have been built in Cork and maybe limerick or Galway. Dublin should have got a city wide METRO and DART. what a balls.

Winters

First mooted around 1991 in a lecture hall in Trinity, Light Rail Transit was at that point seen as the solution to Dublin's congestion and public transport shortfall.

By the time the Irish Government came around to actually completing it in late 2004, 15 years later, the city had changed considerably.

Typically in our country we are all plans and ideas but implimentation and delivery is so poor that by the time the solution is put in place the problem is completely different.

To the people that think the luas-link up is pointless I ask them: Can Dublin wait till 2012+ before the lines are linked? The system is only one a half years old, can it wait another 6 years before being joined up?

Dont get me wrong, Id much perfer it to be underground but I dont think we can wait that long.

SeanW

Yes, a well-run properly-integrated shuttle bus could suffice until the Metro is built without the €200M price tag.

For example, make the shuttle bus available for anyone with a Green line ticket, and modify the Luas map to have a dotted line connecting St. Stephens Green to show that a dedicated Luas shuttle bus is in operation.

Make it basically something like what the 90 bus is now.

Maskhadov

is it really worth spending all that money just for 6 years ?

bk

SeanW wrote:

Make it basically something like what the 90 bus is now.

The 90 sucks, I always take the Luas now instead. The Luas might be full, but at least it always arrives on schedule, the 90 could take anywhere between 30 minutes and over an hour.

is it really worth spending all that money just for 6 years ?

I was in Prague recently, the city has lots of different tram lines, while also having an excellent Metro system.

Even with the Metro built, the Luas will still be heavily used.

MarkoP11

Things kicked off about 1990/91. Irish Rail where told to forget about the expansion of DART and to come up with something cheaper. As a result two proposals appeared Ansaldo/Irish Rail and Prof Simon Perry of TCD under the guise of the Dublin Transport Initiative. I can even remember the article the Irish Times ran in its property section about its impact on property.

For the Dublin of 15 years ago it all made perfect sense, problem is no one accounted for Dublin's growth 10 years on when the final go ahead was given

I think in the context of the line to Liffey Junction the link up makes some sense and does anyone believe that the Metro will be built on time? The link up is costed as €80-100 million not €200 million, its been planned for years there was an EIS prepared and plans drawn up back in the late 1990's

90 is not bad, its cheaper and if you board at Civic Offices even in the peak rush hour you fly down, its still full to the brim at rush hour, 92 is great though to get southside in a hurry. I walk find it much more reliable despite the fact my monthly ticket is valid on both

bk

MarkoP11 wrote:

90 is not bad, its cheaper and if you board at Civic Offices even in the peak rush hour you fly down, its still full to the brim at rush hour, 92 is great though to get southside in a hurry. I walk find it much more reliable despite the fact my monthly ticket is valid on both

Sorry I should have said, I'm getting off the Dart at Connoly and heading to Heuston for the Train to Cork with a big heavy bag. The 90 use to be a disaster for this, I often missed trains because I was stuck in traffic for too long.

John R

bk wrote:

Sorry I should have said, I'm getting off the Dart at Connoly and heading to Heuston for the Train to Cork with a big heavy bag. The 90 use to be a disaster for this, I often missed trains because I was stuck in traffic for too long.

For one you would be better off using Tara St. for the 90, much shorter walk between train-bus and a shorter bus journey.

In my experience, only in the evening rush is the Luas reliably quicker than the 90 in that direction. All other times it is a bit of a lottery. As Marko says once past Wellington Quay the bus is pretty quick outbound.


Once the Cherrywood extention is completed the Green line is going to really struggle with capacity, some kind of upgrading will be necessary. Better off taking the plunge now and converting it to Metro along with a connection to the North metro while Stephen's green is being dug up anyway.

A simple option for Luas tickets to avail of the very frequent bus services between Stephen's Green and O'Connell St would be more than adequate until Metro is open.

dermo88

Well, just remember which coalition of clueless and worthless twats inflicted this on us.

Jeffrey, Gordon, George, Bungle and Zippy.

The Rainbow Coalition.

They'd have been better off painting rainbows.

Their predecessors.....remember them.

"No more investment in the railways"

I despair when I see Ireland. It seems the whole economy is geared to benefit the inhabitants of a beer tent at a certain racetrack.

Transport21 Fan

shltter wrote:

The point is trams look sexy

The fact that you are discommoding more people who use buses is of secondary concern

hope that clears it up

You forgot to mention that the Government at the time were so desparate to make public transport in Ireland actually function to some degree of normality following the ILDA headbagers who took the failed 60 year old CIE oddity to its ultimate expression with a summer long strike which almost destroyed the rail network and forever killed off the business community's faith in rail transport that they formed to RPA in a hope to get something which would run on tracks and actually serve a purpose other than being used as an protection racket by ILDA, SIPTU and NBRU.

Now, it's cleared up.

Red Alert

Why not just multiple-unit the LUASes back to back? But of course the RPA knew better than to order the multiple unit option on the trams like other LRT projects did... muppets.

antoinolachtnai

can someone explain to me why the luas isn't being linked to form a single line with the metro at ranelagh?

Following from that, the obvious thing to do would be to bring the Luas across the city by an easterly route via docklands or else by a westerly route perhaps via clanbrassil st?

Then there would be trains a go-go, cool looking trams going around the streets and space for buses on College Green. Dramatic stations could be built at the many interchanges. Commuters might even be able to get somewhere in the morning. It wouldn't cost much more than doing the projects separately. Everybody would be happy, a rare thing in our great little country.

Transport21 Fan

The green line trams are already some of the longest operational trams in service anywhere in the world.

I agree with the thrust of the Garrett the Good article that it should have been a metro or at least an underground Luas, but I think Winter's post tells the real story, that the Dublin which needed a Luas in 1991, really needed a Metro by 2006. This is not the fault of the RPA. I can't even really blame the Government either, as who really knew just how incredible the changes were going to be.

Aside from Garrett's "see I told you so!" political manifesto in time for the FG ard fheis, the bottom line remains that the Luas has been a fantastic success when many people claimed it would be a total failure. It has moved millions of people onto public transport who quite understandably had traditionally turned their backs on the CIE product.

What the Garrett's article really says and I am sure we all agree (even the CIE Union Branch Dividians on here), that delays in delivering major public transport projects is a very bad idea.

So before some people call the RPA "muppets" I suggest they consider that there are 117 Million Euros worth of half-pointy brand new CIE coaches rotting away in sidings around the country rather than being hauled by a totally unsuitable American freight locomotive (another classic CIE shabby compromise). This is far more of a national scandal than anything which Garrett mentions in his article. If the RPA were to multiple the Luas trams, it's a safe bet to say a "stress" payment shakedown would not be the primary deciding factor in their introduction into service.

BTW "sexy" is very... ACTUALLY VERY, important in public transport. A tram or train which looks like a sportscar or jet does being in the punters. This is just the truth of the matter. Marketing and design is extremely important in creating a public transport culture, especially in English speaking societies.

This is why the term "metro" resonates with the Irish public to a greater degree than "Interconnector". Sexy sells commuter tickets.

Chris_533976

Transport21 Fan wrote:

BTW "sexy" is very... ACTUALLY VERY, important in public transport. A tram or train which looks like a sportscar or jet does being in the punters. This is just the truth of the matter. Marketing and design is extremely important in creating a public transport culture, especially in English speaking societies.

I agree. Far more people, say, would use the buses in Cork if they didnt look like a heap of shit.

Victor

Did Garret actually write the above? It reads as if someone else wrote it.

dermo88 wrote:

Well, just remember which coalition of clueless and worthless twats inflicted this on us.

Jeffrey, Gordon, George, Bungle and Zippy.

The Rainbow Coalition.

Remind me.

Transport21 Fan

Victor, I think dermo is refering to Knockcroghery, which followed the Fine Gael "no further investment in the rail network" manifesto which only by incredibly good forture did not result in mass carnage.

I know it is easy to take the piss, but in reality the current FF/PD government has done more for public transport users (and in particular rail) than any previous government since the foundation of the state. I say this as a total fence-sitter.

This current Government for all its faults has delivered many trains, buses and trams. They will get my vote.

Victor

But wasn't it the Rainbow Coalition that moved Luas forward?

Bill McH

MarkoP11 wrote:

The shuttle service between Heuston and Connolly exists but is not running to a formal timetable. It took them over a year to actually make it happen

Oh, OK, so he was right about that. Thanks for clarifying.

I was cycling along Abbey Street the other day and it occurred to me that a small improvement on the Red Line might be achieved by attempting to deal with the jaywalkers at the O'Connell Street/Abbey Street and Abbey Street/Liffey Street junctions.

Maybe occasional "flash mobbing" of these junctions by the guards would be a good idea.

MarkoP11

This is something I have pointed out to senior RPA people (which was duly confirmed as we passed by) that Liffey Street Junc is the worst.

I witnessed a very close call a few weeks back there. On the other hand Dublin is unique no one has been killed yet which is impressive

It will be years before the real truth comes out but there are some interesting facts behind the mess some statements will come back to haunt people in the RPA and indeed some facts that some here have used might be proven quite wrong, its all the cabinet papers for April-July 2000, danm the 30 year rule

Victor

Cabinet papers = 10 years (McDowell changed it from the previous 5).

MarkoP11

Still its a long way off, something was discussed in April/May/June/July 2000 which is key to the whole thing and the exact date is where everything hangs it could explain a lot

dermo88

My opinion is that Luas was a cheapskate solution to Dublins transport problems. Anything considered for the Harcourt Street line should have been a heavy rail DART. As regards the Tallaght line, Luas is fine for now, but a route running up the Dodder Valley from Milltown, linking with Tallaght could have been considered, and this could have then continued THROUGH Tallaght, linking to the Dublin - Cork mainline at Ballyfermot or Clondalkin.

But Luas is better than nothing, because frankly speaking, with the debates of "should it be above ground, or underground", "where does it go across the city", "should it go through Kilmainham or through St James Hospital", and all these served to delay and delay it again, to the point where people in Tallaght would be left with nothing.

This was the exact same nonsense that happened with DART in 1984-1992, when it was supposed/planned to go to Tallaght from Cherry Orchard.

I like Luas. Its better than nothing. But I will never forgive that bogtrotter from Tipperary shooting his mouth off about "corruption in the semi states", and his waffle about "cosy cartels". He then fobs off the cheapskate solution on the people of Dublin, and, to add insult to injury, does not even include the Northside of the city in the project.

I look at Luas now. It takes 40-50 minutes to get to the city centre on Luas from Tallaght. I always think that if it had been DART, it would be closer to 20, more integrated, and overall, a better system.

All sides are to blame. The Rainbow Coalition might not fully justify the nickname I gave them for participating in the 1994-1997 coalition, but I think its quite entertaining. "Jeffrey, Gordon, George, Bungle and Zippy". I mean, not even Dermot Morgan thought up something that good for them, and its certainly comedy in his genre.

Propellerhead

Garret claims that in 1997 that he met the consultants working on the Luas project and that, most unfortunately according to Garret, no economists were part of that team.

Did Garret mean an economist like TCD's Sean Barrett? Sean was a vehement opponent of the DART project and advocated the full abandonment of the railway system in the 1970s and 1980s. Let's also not forget that Garret himself declared at the formal opening of DART in October 1984 (months after the actual opening in June) that he would not have sanctioned the scheme if he had been in government in 1979 and that his goverment dropped the ball over the expansion of DART to Tallaght, or even the provision of the busways to Dundrum and Mount Argus to Tallaght which were also part of the DART scheme and if implemented would have been of some use.

Garret's track record on the implementation of decent public transport is one of the worst in the history of the State and his interventions on the Luas project resulted purely in the delay of the scheme and nothing else. One could be forgiven for thinking that Garret was part of the long dismal line of those who all but destroyed the public transport infrastructure and whose real bottom line was that public transport was a residual service for those too poor to afford to run cars.

Winters

Maskhadov wrote:

is it really worth spending all that money just for 6 years ?

Money for the Luas link-up or for a shuttle bus service?

luckat

Look at the Greater Dublin Area Rail Network plan. *Why* is there a giant gap in the middle on the southside - in the very area that has the largest commuting population, Harold's Cross, Terenure, Rathmines, etc?

www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-5.pdf

Is this deliberate? Is it mad?

MarkoP11

Propellerhead wrote:

Garret claims that in 1997 that he met the consultants working on the Luas project and that, most unfortunately according to Garret, no economists were part of that team.

Still there would have been a financial evaluation. Relying on existing numbers is still something the RPA have been shown to do, there numbers for Metro where way off and have now been revised

Propellerhead wrote:

Did Garret mean an economist like TCD's Sean Barrett? Sean was a vehement opponent of the DART project and advocated the full abandonment of the railway system in the 1970s and 1980s

How does Sean Barrett get home, yes by train talk about hypocritical

A lot of people forget this country almost went bankrupt in the mid 80's, CIE had to borrow the money for the DART as the EC money never reached CIE it only got as far as the DoF, that forced a halt to any further development as it imposed a huge interest bill making the DART heavily unprofitable (it made an operating profit for several years if you ignored the interest) There where so many things going on at the time, its not widely known but in 1983 CIE came within an inch of signing a deal with Linke Hoffmann Busch to open a rolling stock factory at Inchicore if that had happened things would be very different

The biggest tragedy of all was the loss of the DART to Tallaght, Harcourt Street was only pencilled in as a potential bus way at the time. Tallaght City Centre in 20 minutes with twice the capcity of Luas

MarkoP11

luckat wrote:

Is this deliberate? Is it mad?

Is it a bird is it a plane no its the orbital metro, draw a straight line from Stephens Green to Harolds Cross then Tallaght

Its there alright but expensive and not funded

luckat

How do you mean it's there, Mark? I can't see it on the map.

MarkoP11

The map shows what will be built (if you believe them) by 2015

The full map is http://www.dto.ie/platform.pdf thats the end goal some changes since 2000 but thats the overal target

T21 includes funds to study the southern leg of the orbital metro as well as 3 other Luas line, but does not include funds to build them