speach play when is the line crossed

nicnicnic

This one happened to me a while back.

I'm a big talker at the tables and will question opponents while a hand is in progress, if i put in a bluff i may say I'm very strong or that I'm bluffing may geode a person to call or advise them to fold and so on, however there must be a point where this goes past gamesmanship and becomes unethical. What do you gentlemen think of the following situation


Its a €2 €5 game in my local club i raise €50 preflop with Ac Kc and there's two caller the flops comes k J 10 Rainbows , I raise €50 and the next guy goes all in for €350 while the third player in the pot contemplates calling i show my hand to a friend on my right and indicate to him that I'm folding(non of the players in the pot can see my intentions).

Now player 3 is taking a long time to make has decision and the raiser who is sitting next to me on my left states to me that he has pocket Queens. I reply that's a very big bet for pocket Qs to which he replies well I've got the open straight to get me out if I'm behind. at this stage player 3 folds and i tell player 2 that I've got a better hand then QS but had no intention of calling his raise until he said his hand and asked did he want the call , he replied yes and i ask again have you got QS he replied "yes my hand is pocket Q and i want a call even if your ahead". I call and he turns K J ,turn and river are rags.

Now i take a deep breath and say well played I play 2 more hands and leave the table, when i leave 4 other players do the same and the games breaks up its 5.30 am and the game usually ends at about 7.

i have a chat with about it with experienced player as we get in our cars and he says its the most ungentlemanly thing he has ever seen at a poker table.

now i was inclined to agree as i felt wronged in the hand however as a player who chats a lot, although i would never do what he did i can see a grey area and question myself where is the line crossed.

Bandana boy

If you are a peron who indulges in speech play (as you admit )
and you get some back whats the problem ?

ntlbell

Every single player will have a different idea of where that line is.

For me personally I couldn't careless what comes out of a players mouth during a hand regardless of what he says, it's never going to change your two cards, or his....but what I do find is mouthy players in general are usually pretty bad

El Stuntman

wear headphones

then your only decision is whether to throw €350 into a €65 pot with TPTK.....

nicnicnic

El Stuntman wrote:

wear headphones

then your only decision is whether to throw €350 into a €65 pot with TPTK.....

50*3 + 7 blinds + 50 post flop raise(me) + allin 350 = call for 300 into >500 pot, slight difference dont you think

opr

Ok firstly i don't condone what this guy did but ............

From your point of view ...... Are you giving out about him ???!!!!!

Its not the fact that you speech play that bothers me i enjoy the banter around the poker table as much as anyone.

What does however ...... Did you think the guy was stupid or just wanted to give you money. If this was a situation were the guy was stupid or a gambler you were quite happy to take his money but now all of a sudden because you lost little old you was wronged by the nasty man you told lies at a poker table !!!

Is this thread for real !!!!!!!!!

DeVore

It is ungentlemanly, I wouldnt have paid a blind bit of notice to what someone tells me on the table. I only tell people things I WANT them to know generally but I draw my line much earlier then what you described. Calling a big bet preflop with KJ is pretty poor so I reckon you will get your money back but I'm not surprised that the game broke early as that sort of thing sucks the fun out of a table.

I wouldnt resort to these sorts of tactics myself.

DeV.

El Stuntman

nicnicnic wrote:

50*3 + 7 blinds + 50 post flop raise(me) + allin 350 = call for 300 into >500 pot, slight difference dont you think

HMMM, no wonder I generally lose at pot limit and NL....:rolleyes:

and limit

nicnicnic

opr wrote:

Ok firstly i don't condone what this guy did but ............

From your point of view ...... Are you giving out about him ???!!!!!

Its not the fact that you speech play that bothers me i enjoy the banter around the poker table as much as anyone.

What does however ...... Did you think the guy was stupid or just wanted to give you money. If this was a situation were the guy was stupid or a gambler you were quite happy to take his money but now all of a sudden because you lost little old you was wronged by the nasty man you told lies at a poker table !!!

Is this thread for real !!!!!!!!!

to be honest i thought the he was looking to gamble. at the time i felt he crossed the line but that was tilt, now i no he just out spoofed me. saw a few posts about verbels on here recently and just thought it was an intresting hand

ianmc38

I'll often misrepresent my hand in order to induce a call or a fold. You got done, get on with it tbh.

Bad sportsmanship on his behalf, but that's it rly.

Waylander

A player invests heavily in a pot, and then tells you there is an overcard to his pair on the board, fully aware that you are still live, and you believe him? If you indulge in speach play, maybe you had pissed him off earlier so he sought revenge. I think the fact that you chose to accept what he said is your own problem, but is there no rule in that club regarding discussing your hand?

Pokerevents

nicnicnic wrote:

This one happened to me a while back.

I'm a big talker at the tables and will question opponents while a hand is in progress, if i put in a bluff i may say I'm very strong or that I'm bluffing may geode a person to call or advise them to fold and so on, however there must be a point where this goes past gamesmanship and becomes unethical. What do you gentlemen think of the following situation


Its a €2 €5 game in my local club i raise €50 preflop with Ac Kc and there's two caller the flops comes k J 10 Rainbows , I raise €50 and the next guy goes all in for €350 while the third player in the pot contemplates calling i show my hand to a friend on my right and indicate to him that I'm folding(non of the players in the pot can see my intentions).

Now player 3 is taking a long time to make has decision and the raiser who is sitting next to me on my left states to me that he has pocket Queens. I reply that's a very big bet for pocket Qs to which he replies well I've got the open straight to get me out if I'm behind. at this stage player 3 folds and i tell player 2 that I've got a better hand then QS but had no intention of calling his raise until he said his hand and asked did he want the call , he replied yes and i ask again have you got QS he replied "yes my hand is pocket Q and i want a call even if your ahead". I call and he turns K J ,turn and river are rags.

Now i take a deep breath and say well played I play 2 more hands and leave the table, when i leave 4 other players do the same and the games breaks up its 5.30 am and the game usually ends at about 7.

i have a chat with about it with experienced player as we get in our cars and he says its the most ungentlemanly thing he has ever seen at a poker table.

now i was inclined to agree as i felt wronged in the hand however as a player who chats a lot, although i would never do what he did i can see a grey area and question myself where is the line crossed.

I'm all for speech play and would accept more than most, but I think this is wrong. My understanding is speech play is fine untill you declare your exact holdings and/or specifically name out cards as in this case where the guy says I've got queens.
Saying I'm strong/weak/want , dont want call etc I think is fine but actually naming cards is not.

Lafortezza

DeVore wrote:

I wouldnt resort to these sorts of tactics myself.

DeV.

opr

nicnicnic wrote:

to be honest i thought the he was looking to gamble. at the time i felt he crossed the line but that was tilt, now i no he just out spoofed me. saw a few posts about verbels on here recently and just thought it was an intresting hand

Hope the ironry of this is not lost on you

jbravado

Why are you not allowed to declare what your actual holding is?This seems absolutley crazy to me.......
Personally I dont think this guy did much wrong and dont understand why it is deemed bad form?
Nothing annoys me more than when someone not involved in the pot feels they need to comment on the play and possible holdings.

Drakar

I don't know how accurate it was as I was somewhat doubting at the time, but I thought I saw on tv someone stating actual cards they had (or hadnt) and the commentators saying that if it went to a showdown and they didn't have those cards they would lose the hand.

[edit]
Actually, thinking about it again, I think it was that if he HAD those cards and it went to showdown he would lose the hand. This makes a bit more sense as you could see how by declaring his hand it's equivalent to him showing his cards to the other players (where they could be declared dead).

Not sure on what the "official" ruling would be though...

Pokerevents

Waylander wrote:

A player invests heavily in a pot, and then tells you there is an overcard to his pair on the board, fully aware that you are still live, and you believe him? If you indulge in speach play, maybe you had pissed him off earlier so he sought revenge. I think the fact that you chose to accept what he said is your own problem, but is there no rule in that club regarding discussing your hand?

I believe if you describe the cards you do actually have it is against the rules in most clubs, certainly overseas.

Waylander

Yeah Fintan, I thought as much, but I do not cash game much. In a tournie you could call the TD over, he would most likely fold the other player, in a cash game I would not be too sure what to do. I assume you could discuss it with the pit boss and let him make a ruling on it.

NickyOD

You already broke the rules by showing your hand to a friend. I'm certain the one player to a hand rule is in effect in every cardroom. This is because number one you must make every decision on your own and secondly because someone may get a reaction from the person you showed the cards to. You say no one at the table can see your intentions but this is nonsense. Any player worth his salt will be observant enough to see that you've shown someone your cards.

As for the villain telling you what he didn't have its a grey area. I wouldn't like it but I'd let him away with it. If anyone gives away accurate information about their hand in an attempt to get a player to call/fold then its a big no-no. In fact in our cash game I try to discourage anyone talking to a player when its his decision.

Mr. Flibble

I think what he did is fair enough. Pretty slick actually. I fantisise (as I go to sleep at night ) about being in a massive pot facing a massive raise and holding up the whole game as I ask the dealer, or floorman to really put on the show, to verify that if my Aces full of Kings is beaten I get a bad beat fund, so I push once he verifys this and Mr. Villian folds his AK, before I flick over my 23o and rake in 675euro. Ahh sweet speech play.

tricky D

NickyOD wrote:

You already broke the rules by showing your hand to a friend.

Yup, instant warning and maybe even kill your hand depending on exactly how it happens.

Speech play rules vary from country to country and club to club. None generally allowed in UK, to anything goes if you're still in the hand, regardless of number of players still in the hand as in the US.
My preference is that there shouldn't be any speech play when there's more than 2 players left to bet in the hand. At heads up he can say anything he likes true or otherwise, though personally don't like the blatant lying thing.

sunzz

I just cant how you are even thinking about calling this, first and foremost 350 on TPTK, now he probs seen you show your cards to your mate knew you were folding and talked you into calling.

I mean did you REALLY REALLY think he tells you he only has QQ and wants a call with a straight and an over card on the board.....

To be honest I think it's a little crummy but it's not against the rules as he did not accurately tell you his hand, so in rules terms its fine.

why you called I dont have a clue......

RoundTower

sunzz wrote:

I just cant how you are even thinking about calling this, first and foremost 350 on TPTK,

I would call.

jbravado

jbravado wrote:

Why are you not allowed to declare what your actual holding is?

I'd say it's to stop collusion. Lets say you and a player at the same table are friends and pre-agree that when you announce your hand and then, say take a drink with your LEFT hand, you're lying, but if you use your RIGHT hand, then you're telling the truth. You can let him know when to stay in a pot and when to drop out.

TacT

The line is crossed when you start moaning about other peoples speech play because you have pulled so many great ones in the past and made your opponent fold/bet where needed?

TacT

RoundTower wrote:

I would call.

nice speech play but then again, everyone who calls here deserves to be shot with a double barrel shotgun at close range so I'd fold just to save myself the pain. How come you didn't retort that you had KK and couldn't fold?

nicnicnic

TacT wrote:

How come you didn't retort that you had KK and couldn't fold?

wish I'd of thought of that he might of unraised.....


as for showing your cards to someone not in the hand, well the game's are fairly easy going and its not an uncommon occurrence

patmac

Mr. Flibble wrote:

I think what he did is fair enough. Pretty slick actually. I fantisise (as I go to sleep at night ) about being in a massive pot facing a massive raise and holding up the whole game as I ask the dealer, or floorman to really put on the show, to verify that if my Aces full of Kings is beaten I get a bad beat fund, so I push once he verifys this and Mr. Villian folds his AK, before I flick over my 23o and rake in 675euro. Ahh sweet speech play.

lol, personally I prefer to fantasize about sexy women myself maybe this could be a compromise
http://fun.bowmans.com/poker/

Mr. Flibble

patmac wrote:

lol, personally I prefer to fantasize about sexy women myself maybe this could be a compromise
http://fun.bowmans.com/poker/

My laptop battery died just before the end of he video, but man she is sexy, the things we could do together, I just want to lay her on a 52 card pickup and kiss her all over.

Hitman Actual

sunzz wrote:

I just cant how you are even thinking about calling this, first and foremost 350 on TPTK, now he probs seen you show your cards to your mate knew you were folding and talked you into calling.

In a lot of the new cardclubs springing up around the country, TPTK is often a monster! You get a lot of new players who play very strange, so you'd often be in great shape getting the money in with TPTK.

It's definately a grey area rules-wise, but afaik (and what I posted in a similar thread this week) if you give a declaration of your cards, you must play with them turned over for the rest of the hand. But in this case he declared incorrectly, so I haven't a clue.

Surely Luke Ivory could give a definitive answer on this?

To the OP, the KJ guy definately crossed a line, imo. But as someone else said, he called a raise PF with KJ, so be happy that you'll skin him in the long-term.

Edit: Out of curiousity, nicnicnic, when you speech-play players do you ever tell them your holding, either real or imaginary?

Rockfish

Was watching final table of a pub tourney last night when a couple of similar incidents occurred.

Heads up and SB calls, BB takes a while to decide and SB declares that he whas pocket 10's and will see any reraise nad will turn his cards over regardless. BB bets and SB immediately folds. Right or wrong?

Same two still heads up. I have seen SB's hand of 34o and he calls. No raise from BB. Flop comes K4Q rainbow, BB checks, SB says he has a 4 and bets, BB calls. Turn is a 3, SB announces two pair and calls exactly what he has. BB checks and SB goes all in. BB calls with A10, river is a rag and SB wins the tourney.

While the above incidents may be unethical are they actually against established rules??

nicnicnic

lenny_leonard wrote:

Edit: Out of curiousity, nicnicnic, when you speech-play players do you ever tell them your holding, either real or imaginary?

no i wouldn't mention the cards in my hand eitherway I might tell someone I'm well ahead or say i think there bluffing. I will put the opponents on cards to see there reaction.

as for calling €350 with TPTK in this example I was folding until the guy spoofed me into calling. But I have no problem calling such a bet if i felt i was ahead, this is really subjective to the game and players your up against. I'm no call station and no when to put down a hand (except in this instance), but hell as a poker player I'm not Omnipotent. I'm gonna give an example of a call I made in a cash game two months ago, now I no some of the people who got stuck into me in this post will ridicule this but here goes.

Its a cash game in clonmel with a guy who doesn't just doesn't care about the money. Blinds are €50-€100 I call his preflop raise of €500 with 77 flop comes 10 2 2 and he puts me all in for another €2800 I call in an instance, he has 55 and i win. Now how do i call this, its the biggest cash game I'd ever been involved, its because i no I'm in front. Three hands later I double through with a set against his TP rag kicker, on a flop of A 9 3 rainbow he has A 8 me 99 he raiser €1000 and I move all in with another €4500 (preflop action amounts to €1400). Its what he considers the loose call earlier that gets me paid here, I never considered it a loose call because of the game it was and more so the opponent, I knew in that hand in all likelihood my 77 were in front. What I'm just trying to say here is that to just dismiss a €350 call with TPTK as bad poker is bad poker

cardshark202

nicnicnic wrote:

Its a cash game in clonmel with a guy who doesn't just doesn't care about the money. Blinds are €50-€100 I call his preflop raise of €500 with 77 flop comes 10 2 2 and he puts me all in for another €2800 I call in an instance, he has 55 and i win. Now how do i call this, its the biggest cash game I'd ever been involved, its because i no I'm in front. Three hands later I double through with a set against his TP rag kicker, on a flop of A 9 3 rainbow he has A 8 me 99 he raiser €1000 and I move all in with another €4500 (preflop action amounts to €1400). Its what he considers the loose call earlier that gets me paid here, I never considered it a loose call because of the game it was and more so the opponent, I knew in that hand in all likelihood my 77 were in front. What I'm just trying to say here is that to just dismiss a €350 call with TPTK as bad poker is bad poker

So you sat down in a cash game with 33BBs?

nicnicnic

it was at the coursing in clonmel in febuary and the game started as a €2 €5 game but the two wealthy(surmised from there wads) englishmen at the table insisted on raising the blinds time after time until it reached 50/100 eventually

cardshark202

nicnicnic wrote:

it was at the coursing in clonmel in febuary and the game started as a €2 €5 game but the two wealthy(surmised from there wads) englishmen at the table insisted on raising the blinds time after time until it reached 50/100 eventually

Well no matter what happened as the blinds got raised you should have went to get more money before you continued. Otherwise you only need to get unlucky once and you lose.

nicnicnic

fair enough point taken and understood your talking textbook but do I miss this oppertunity because I cant lay my hands on 200bb straight away, this game is anything but textbook

Rockfish

Was watching final table of a pub tourney last night when a couple of similar incidents occurred.

Heads up and SB calls, BB takes a while to decide and SB declares that he whas pocket 10's and will see any reraise nad will turn his cards over regardless. BB bets and SB immediately folds. Right or wrong?

Same two still heads up. I have seen SB's hand of 34o and he calls. No raise from BB. Flop comes K4Q rainbow, BB checks, SB says he has a 4 and bets, BB calls. Turn is a 3, SB announces two pair and calls exactly what he has. BB checks and SB goes all in. BB calls with A10, river is a rag and SB wins the tourney.

While the above incidents may be unethical are they actually against established rules??

Anyone any thoughts? Have only started playing recently with some mates and we'd like to try some live tourneys but would also like to know the correct rules.
Cheers

nicnicnic

Pokerevents wrote:

My understanding is speech play is fine untill you declare your exact holdings and/or specifically name out cards as in this case where the guy says I've got queens.
Saying I'm strong/weak/want , dont want call etc I think is fine but actually naming cards is not.

this would be my understanding also

cardshark202

nicnicnic wrote:

fair enough point taken and understood your talking textbook but do I miss this oppertunity because I cant lay my hands on 200bb straight away, this game is anything but textbook

It might be tough to pass up the opportunity but if you can't at least sit in the game with enough to cover a few bad beats then you should just leave it til another time. But I can see why you would want to sit with those guys.

Mr. Flibble

cardshark202 wrote:

Well no matter what happened as the blinds got raised you should have went to get more money before you continued. Otherwise you only need to get unlucky once and you lose.

Get unluky once deep stacked and lose more...

cardshark202 wrote:

It might be tough to pass up the opportunity but if you can't at least sit in the game with enough to cover a few bad beats then you should just leave it til another time. But I can see why you would want to sit with those guys.

I understands the benifits of playing deep stacked, but having enough to survive a few bad beats isn't one. A bad beat short stacked is a much nicer thing than a bad beat deep stacked.

thenuts

You showed your hand to your friend, you should never have done that. Bluffing is part of the game and if you ask a player what he has then where is the problem with him bluffing you. I had a very similar thing happen in my club 3 weeks ago and the player wanted his money back, (a lot of money it was too) (1) he should not have asked what a player has and (2) he should not believe what he is told.

sunzz

No offence its not the 350 with tptk its the board your tk is on that worries me + his pre flop call.

Not to mention he probs seen you showing ur cards to your friend and your body language stating you're going to fold and he seen the chance of another 350 so talked you into calling.

I'd say you knew you were being had, just you were overcome by the green eyed monster looking at the pot.

Poker & Pints

Pokerevents wrote:

I believe if you describe the cards you do actually have it is against the rules in most clubs, certainly overseas.

NickyOD wrote:

You already broke the rules by showing your hand to a friend.

In Cash games there is no such rules in either of these cases. Unless it is printed in a specific card room. It is clear in almost every tournament that showing your cards is a dead hand.

I have yet to see a game(Vegas, Phoenix, Indian Reservations) where declaring a hand incurred a "dead hand", nor has showing a card to a friend or another player incurred a "dead hand". In fact many times you will see players turn over one card and show it during a hand...most notably when there is 3 to a flush on the board, a lot of players will turn over one of the suits so as to suggest that they have the flush.

Anyways, to the OP...he out talked you, Plain and simple. BTW I have some magic beans that I'll trade you for $666.57. I'll even throw in a few extra.

5starpool

Poker & Pints wrote:

BTW I have some magic beans that I'll trade you for $666.57. I'll even throw in a few extra.

Are you BIG-SLICK-POKER too? That amount is startlingly similiar (10 cents out) to the amount he lost in the 'why is PPP rigged' thread..........

nicnicnic

Poker & Pints wrote:

Anyways, to the OP...he out talked you, Plain and simple. BTW I have some magic beans that I'll trade you for $666.57. I'll even throw in a few extra.

cant really spare the $666 at the moment however I could trade the X-ray spectacles that i recently purchased which allow you to see the other players hole cards; for them

ianmc38

nicnicnic wrote:

I could trade the X-ray spectacles that i recently purchased which allow you to see the other players hole cards for them

Must be some lazy feckers that you're playing with if they won't even look at their own hole cards.

Do you look at their cards with the glasses, then whisper in their ear or pass a note or something?

nicnicnic

ianmc38 wrote:

Must be some lazy feckers that you're playing with if they won't even look at their own hole cards.

Do you look at their cards with the glasses, then whisper in their ear or pass a note or something?

shhhhhhhh dont tell starpool but the Fu@ken things dont work, I just really want to get my hands on those beans,

Poker & Pints

5starpool wrote:

Are you BIG-SLICK-POKER too? That amount is startlingly similiar (10 cents out) to the amount he lost in the 'why is PPP rigged' thread..........

The extra 10 cents is so that a profit is realized.

I sold some of them magic beans to the guy that sucked out on Big Slick with the poker of 10's. They work Trust me.

But I don't believe the xray glasses thing for a sec. Who needs them anyways, the players at my table just tell me what they have and I make my play based on what they told me.

nicnicnic