Deal done - but is it a deal?

Pokerevents

Reading Poker & Pints thread and Culchie's response brought something to mind.
When I cashed in one of my first live tournaments in Luton 2 years ago, I suggested a deal with one guy (who I got very well with, as it turned out it was anthony chapman) out of the 5 remaining players. Both of us were short stacked agreed 30% of the difference of whatever each of us cashed for. I was knocked out almost immediately and recieved £2.5 stg approx. I stood on the rail and watch my man play exceptional poker as he doubled up three times to give himself a real chance. When he knocked out a player and it was three way I thought whow this is mad, He could end up winning this. Then the doubt hit me. What if he does'nt honour the deal. I dont know this guy, he does'nt know me, nobody witnessed the deal.
As I watched Anthony get to heads up I was actually in pain tortured by the negative thoughts that he has'nt a notion of handing a few K stg over to someone who has done absolutly nothing for him.
He lost the head to head in a coin toss but was due £9k for his second place. His friends congradulated him as he headed towards the cage I simply walked alongside him not really believing he would hand over the £2k due to me. I was convinced he would renege. As he collected his winnings in cash he was in conversation with his mate who was still complaining about the aggressive play of the young lad who beat him heads up. Anthony replied "you know what these new guys are like, they think they have something to prove. I offered him a deal even though the Irishman had a piece of me"
It was only when I heard this did I understand never did it even enter his head to try and shaft me in any way. A deal is a deal, especially in the poker world, where once you've said it, that needs to be followed through. I arrived back to our hotel and explained to my wife how I won almost as much from Anthonys winnings as my own. She had a problem figuring it out and then when she said whow I was wrong about poker, it must be a gentlemans game.

On another occasion I did a 10% deal with a friend in a event both of us played. I crashed early he went on to claim 5 figures. I said fair play and dont forget about our deal, he said what deal. I said dont mess around 10% you owe me He said fcuk off. I did'nt tell my wife about this one.

brianmc

I've often thought the people you meet in casinos (particularly poker) are strange like that. You don't believe a word they say and yet in a strange way - there is trust.

ollyk1

Pokerevents wrote:

On another occasion I did a 10% deal with a friend in a event both of us played. I crashed early he went on to claim 5 figures. I said fair play and dont forget about our deal, he said what deal. I said dont mess around 10% you owe me He said fcuk off. I did'nt tell my wife about this one.

:mad:

I'm tempted to say name and shame but there are libel laws.

If someone did that to me I wouldn't be referring to them as friend ever again and he wouldn't want to be stuck for a fiver, in need of a blood donation or be on fire and come looking for help from me.

super_furry

I think in poker your reputation is everything. If anyone gets a name for being a welcher, then they're going to have huge problems even finding a game.

patmac

A verbal contract is not worth the paper it is written on, as they say. The gamblers code of not welching on bets usually comes into it, probably worth having a witness when doing a deal. By the way would this effect your play against him? I mean if you had to take him out your reducing an avenue of earning income?

jacQues

patmac wrote:

A verbal contract is not worth the paper it is written on, as they say. The gamblers code of not welching on bets usually comes into it, probably worth having a witness when doing a deal. By the way would this effect your play against him? I mean if you had to take him out your reducing an avenue of earning income?

I was thinking the same, but the other way around.

If two shortstacks go all-in against each other, one will end up with a good chance. Sure the other will be out. But one chance is better than two half chances right??

jacQues

Culchie

Pokerevents wrote:

Reading Poker & Pints thread and Culchie's response brought something to mind.

Fintan, my post was

"Poker & Pints, who are you?"

Hardly a threatening or evasive question, the guy then decides to operate incognito and elusive.
Maybe you know him, you probably do, but it was a very simple question from someone who doesn't.

His idea is one I've brought up a few times for boardsters, so I'm all for his idea, but you like to do know who you are doing business with don't you?


The rest of your post is so true, a man's word and reputation is important in the poker world, same as golf, snooker and the other sports where unwritten codes of conduct are practiced on a daily basis....afterall would you stake your (ex) buddy again?

kippy

A pretty stupid question here but why would you make a deal with someone to give them a percentage of your winnings?
It doesnt look like they can offer you anything to justify this, nor can you offer them anything to justify it.

5starpool

Well at least you realise it is a daft question kippy. It is to give you more of a chance to get money from an event. If you swap percentages with him someone else and you get knocked out you can still get a touch from the tournament. Should be fairly obvious really.

kippy

In general would this practice only happen between friends?

I dont see the sense in losing some money that you won to a deal you had cut with a stranger.
If you were winning a lot of money in a few tournaments and you had cut these deals, surely you would have lost a lot of money to someone else for nothing....

Pokerevents

Culchie wrote:

Fintan, my post was

"Poker & Pints, who are you?"

Hardly a threatening or evasive question, the guy then decides to operate incognito and elusive.
Maybe you know him, you probably do, but it was a very simple question from someone who doesn't.

His idea is one I've brought up a few times for boardsters, so I'm all for his idea, but you like to do know who you are doing business with don't you?


The rest of your post is so true, a man's word and reputation is important in the poker world, same as golf, snooker and the other sports where unwritten codes of conduct are practiced on a daily basis....afterall would you stake your (ex) buddy again?

I did'nt intend my thread to dis your response to P&P in any shape or form. To the contary I think your questions are both valid and sensible. It simply reminded me of the above.
I dont know P & P, but I do like his/her name, however I dont think that's enough to vouch for them.

Funny thing is with regards to my friend he has conviently convinced himself we only discussed the deal but did'nt shake on it.

5starpool

kippy wrote:

In general would this practice only happen between friends?

I dont see the sense in losing some money that you won to a deal you had cut with a stranger.
If you were winning a lot of money in a few tournaments and you had cut these deals, surely you would have lost a lot of money to someone else for nothing....

Well in theory this would only happen on certain occasions:

1. Someone pays part/all of your entry fee for a tournament. You agree to gieve them a % of any winnings. Benefit obvious here as you wouldn't have played otherwise probably.
2. Before the tournament you discuss with a friend and decide for interest sake to swap 10%. You would generally not do this with a player you perceive to be a bad player or someone who has no chance to make the money.
3. Near the end of a tournament, you and another player decide to swap a %. This is again usually only done between friends, though arrangements may arise from time to time between relative strangers. This obviously has a 'trust' element.

With all these deals you will have to weigh if this is right for you. Don't accept a 10% swap if you feel you are by far the better player, or late on don't accept an even % swap if you have more chips than your opponent.

Last Time I did this was with another guy I know when we were all in head to head with roughtly same chip count and we swapped 10% before the pair vs overcards race happened. This was a guy I know farly well and had no qualms at all in paying him a precentage when I cashed after winning the race.

ollyk1

kippy wrote:

In general would this practice only happen between friends?

I dont see the sense in losing some money that you won to a deal you had cut with a stranger.
If you were winning a lot of money in a few tournaments and you had cut these deals, surely you would have lost a lot of money to someone else for nothing....

What if HJ offered you an equal swap of his action for a slice of yours? Would you take it then?

Generally equal swaps happen between people who think they are of equal abiltity to reduce tournament variance. Nobody forces you do it in the same way no one forces a deal on you at the FT of a tournament.

The reasons why it happens is because you are playing a game of short run luck versus long run skill with a fixed bankroll.

Funny thing is with regards to my friend he has conviently convinced himself we only discussed the deal but did'nt shake on it.

Fintan I don't know you personally but you and I both know thats a lie and you let him off welching on a deal. Watch your back with this "friend".

kippy

Cheers for the replys,
Much enlightening.
Kippy

Daithio

Did that seriously happen with your mate fintan? That's well out of order, I've never heard of it happening before.

Pokerevents

Daithio wrote:

Did that seriously happen with your mate fintan? That's well out of order, I've never heard of it happening before.

Yea it happened and I would still talk to the guy.
I know him for about 18months, I met him through poker and got on well with the guy so I considered him as a friend i.e would chat and drink pints in his company. As regards the deal he has blanked it out totally and wont accept that we had any part of each other. As Olly has said the fact is, its a pure lie, and it's sad that some people do lie over money.
Anyway the moral of the story is a deal needs to be crystal clear especially with so called buddy's.

tricky D

super_furry wrote:

I think in poker your reputation is everything.

Yep, so where did all the tips go, ______??? (not u super_furry)

kpnuts

Daithio wrote:

Did that seriously happen with your mate fintan? That's well out of order, I've never heard of it happening before.

I've actually found it to be much safer making casual deals of this nature with semi-strangers in the poker world than it is with friends. I am still waiting to get paid by two friends who agreed to take 7% of me in last year's WSOP.

One of the two, Senan ($530) insists there was no deal. Here's the scenario:

A bunch of friends are down in New Zealand following the Lions tour while we are in Las Vegas. One pal Philly keeps in close touch, he is keen to follow my progress in Vegas and we have discussed that maybe some of the lads would like to take a % of me if I qualify for main event.

So when I qualify in the last satellite on the morning of Day 1, one of the first things I do is text Philly to say I'm through and that small % of me are for sale at face value. I get a couple of hours' sleep before I have to play (literally a couple of hours LOL) and when I wake up there's a text from Philly's phone which reads, "I'll take 5% cos I believe in KP Nuts. Senan"
Excited and hung over, I text straight back to Philly's phone, "If you're serious, you're on."

I actually declined further offers of %s (including an offer from your brother Niall on Boards) on the basis that I had sold off 30% and that I wanted to retain 70%.

Then when I got home and see the lads, I say to Senan, sorry I couldn't make a few quid for you but what's $530 but a drop in the ocean to you (he's a millionaire!) ... he says, don't worry about it, there was no deal (because I never got back to him directly about it). I showed him the text I got from him (admittedly from Philly's mobile), which he admitted he sent. I showed him my reply to Philly's mobile. He just laughed it off, saying I should have got back to him! All our other friends agreed with him, saying there was clearly no deal LOL. Yet, and this is a big IF, obviously, but IF i had cashed for $1,750,000 like Andy Black did, I would have (a) flown in the lads from New Zealand or wherever they were en route home) for the final table in Binions and immediately handed over the $87,500 I would have felt I owed him!

The other friend who booked 2% still says every time I see him, "I must get you that $200 I owe you KP blah" but doesn't seem to see it like a "real" debt LOL.

My advice is, be much more careful doing casual deals with your friends than with poker players! I haven't fallen out with them over it, but it saddened me that they couldn't understand the integrity and gentlemanliness of the poker world, no matter how hard I tried to explain that deals are done on a much more casual basis every night in every casino the world over between virtual strangers. I have never heard of a poker deal between strangers not being honoured. I even chop high-buyin sit&go's online with people i've never met occasionally (only with people i play against every day, or know thru poker forum etc, not TOTAL strangers)...

Glad I got that off my chest, will save me some shrink fees LOL

bohsman

We were trying to do a deal heads up for a WSOP ticket with nothing for second we couldnt find a host to do the deal for us so we casually agreed to send the loser 1000$ despite never having played each other before, hard to see anything like that happening outside of poker

loosecannon

good post kp, i certainly agree with you that doing a deal with someone in the poker world who understands how these things work & someone who will have their name blackened if they don't honour their word is more beneficial in the long run!

i also think that sharing/swopping stakes with other people who are in the same tourney as you is a nice way to do these things rather than getting money for % stakes

it can also give you another interest when your AA gets dogged first hand up in the World Series!