KK on Ace board

ocallagh

5/10 NL Prima.

I've been at the table about 1 hr.

Villain (600) (cut off) makes it 50.
Hero (800) (button) flat calls with KK.
BB (1200, who has yet to fold a hand pre-flop....) calls too.

Flop A74r

Villain thinks for about 10 seconds and checks. I know from villains play he is ABC/weak.. he prefers to check/call than bet/fold.... I think he bets anything but AK here.. If I bet, and he calls/raises I know he has AK... so is the best play to check and hope he has TT/JJ/QQ and give him a chance to hang himeslf later?

The problem is we have the BB to deal with. While the BB has an ace as often as a random hand.. we have to assume he will play A9 to the death. He will also bluff the ace if we both check to him....

Should I represent the ace here and find out where I stand... or should I try and trap the villain later on (and hope the BB just goes away...)

breadmonkey

Why didn't you reraise preflop, knowing the BB would probably call the villain's raise? Surely you don't want 3 people in this pot in the first place?

fuzzbox

Just check.
Given BBs loose nature, he will tell you on a later street if he has an Ace or not.

fuzzbox

Btw ocallagh ... you have Mungins KK paradox.

If you slowplay KK preflop .... an Ace will appear 100% of the time, but if you reraise, everybody will fold.

Gholimoli

i dont think ccking here is good play.
you say CO is abc and BB is very loose .
if you check here BB could well try and represent the A with two checks,if CO calls the bet then you have to assume one of them has the A and fold while BB could only be bluffing and CO calling him with something like TT,JJ,QQ here and your folding the best hand.
if you bet and get reraised in any place you can be fairly sure that some one has the A and if you only get flat called chnces are you get to see the river for free and.

Rnger

fuzzbox wrote:

Given BBs loose nature, he will tell you on a later street if he has an Ace or not.

ocallagh says he will try bluff the ace if its checked to him. If the BB bets on the turn you dont know where you stand. You still need to check because according to your read the CO will slowplay. You missed this flop, see what happens on the turn.

Culchie

Hey Fuzz, there's a very familiar post on another thread (Roundtower2) QQ with a K high board.

I'm having conflicting views with myself.

I'm thinking checking here in this situation is good in a cash game, I think in a tournament, the continuation bet is necessary.

What you think?

Hectorjelly

Culchie wrote:

Hey Fuzz, there's a very familiar post on another thread (Roundtower2) QQ with a K high board.

I'm having conflicting views with myself.

I'm thinking checking here in this situation is good in a cash game, I think in a tournament, the continuation bet is necessary.

What you think?

Every hand of poker you play, you play to maximise your winnings/minimise loses , be it chips or cash or sexual favours. Whether its a tournament or cash game is almost always completely irrelevant, unless you are near the money.

Culchie

Sorry, we are near the money, we're in it (see other thread)

Hectorjelly

Culchie wrote:

Sorry, we are near the money, we're in it (see other thread)

You said that there would be a different optium strategy in a cash game than in a tournament, this I feel to be incorrect. These two hands have many other relevant factors that make them completely different.

Culchie

I said I'm having conflicting views, and looking for advice on optimum strategy, and I'm asking the question if there is a different approach to this type of hand in a Cash V Tournament situation.

careca

Hectorjelly wrote:

Every hand of poker you play, you play to maximise your winnings/minimise loses , be it chips or cash or sexual favours.

Reminds me of a useless story. Mate and me played a game of strip poker with two girls in Clare some years ago. After a horrific string of bad beats we (two males) were sitting there balls naked, whilst the two women had removed one shoe between them. As the girls sat there giggling/throwing up my mate asks, very seriously, if they would like another game.

Worst bluff I ever saw/heard.

fuzzbox

Culchie wrote:

Hey Fuzz, there's a very familiar post on another thread (Roundtower2) QQ with a K high board.

I'm having conflicting views with myself.

I'm thinking checking here in this situation is good in a cash game, I think in a tournament, the continuation bet is necessary.

What you think?

We have position in this hand ... which is very important, and very useful.
I check here - but that doesnt mean that I cannot call later in the hand, depending on what happens on the next street.

Gholimoli

fuzzbox wrote:

We have position in this hand ... which is very important, and very useful.
I check here - but that doesnt mean that I cannot call later in the hand, depending on what happens on the next street.

Fuzz would it not be better to find out where you stand as soon as possible.
if you check,BB bets ,CO ,do you call?
if you call you have no idea where you stand and say turn is another none A,none K ,BB bets ,i assume you call again not knowing where you are.
the problem with BBs range here is that it is so wide that any card on thr turn and river can improve his hand even if he dosent have the A.
is my thinking wrong?

fuzzbox

Gholi - this board is particularly drawless, and you really cant stand too much heat, but you would MUCH prefer to keep the action in front of you as then you can make better decisions.

If the turn is a 9 for example, and BB bets, and CO calls/raises, then I can fold KK. If BB bets, CO folds, then I might call, and play some river-poker.

I am capable of doing this with AK too, which is kinda important.

This is very different from an AhTd9h board ... where there are a gazillion draws about the place.

ocallagh

Total mistake flat calling pre-flop. $50 was an unusual raise for the villain and at the time I felt a re-raise would certainly get rid of anything but AA/KK/possibly QQ. It turns out that the only way I could possibly get paid in this hand is to re-raise pre-flop and hope the Villain gets attached to QQ.

Anyway, the damage was done pre-flop... so

I like Fuzz's line on the flop... but I still don't like giving the BB options. He is going to bet a lot of the time here and this will force the Villain out (An accidental use of the squeeze play tactic by the BB). I can of course extract money from the BB.. but he might have the fecking ace..

I still don't know what to do.

ps: I bet 75 on the flop and they both folded.. sigh. I seem to be making mistakes a lot recently. Maybe I'm just more aware of the mistakes I'm making. They do say awareness is the first step to recovery! In poker, awareness is vital... It's quite scary to think you could be making mistakes left right and centre without knowing..

MrPillowTalk

ocallagh wrote:

5/10 NL Prima.

I've been at the table about 1 hr.

Villain (600) (cut off) makes it 50.
Hero (800) (button) flat calls with KK.
BB (1200, who has yet to fold a hand pre-flop....) calls too.

Flop A74r

Villain thinks for about 10 seconds and checks. I know from villains play he is ABC/weak.. he prefers to check/call than bet/fold.... I think he bets anything but AK here.. If I bet, and he calls/raises I know he has AK... so is the best play to check and hope he has TT/JJ/QQ and give him a chance to hang himeslf later?

The problem is we have the BB to deal with. While the BB has an ace as often as a random hand.. we have to assume he will play A9 to the death. He will also bluff the ace if we both check to him....

Should I represent the ace here and find out where I stand... or should I try and trap the villain later on (and hope the BB just goes away...)

Im going to bet here 100% of the time, if I get raised I will probably go away (depending on the player obviously) , if a T J or Q hits and he bets it we really dont know where we are at and might end up calling off half our stack to Ace rag. Also if you check here you let someone with any ace convince thamselves its good.

As for raising pre flop, flat call is fine imo, raise would be fine too.

MrPillowTalk

ocallagh wrote:

ps: I bet 75 on the flop and they both folded.. sigh. I seem to be making mistakes a lot recently. Maybe I'm just more aware of the mistakes I'm making. They do say awareness is the first step to recovery! In poker, awareness is vital... It's quite scary to think you could be making mistakes left right and centre without knowing..

ahh but ignorance is bliss

fuzzbox

ocallagh wrote:

Total mistake flat calling pre-flop. $50 was an unusual raise for the villain and at the time I felt a re-raise would certainly get rid of anything but AA/KK/possibly QQ. It turns out that the only way I could possibly get paid in this hand is to re-raise pre-flop and hope the Villain gets attached to QQ.

Anyway, the damage was done pre-flop... so

I like Fuzz's line on the flop... but I still don't like giving the BB options. He is going to bet a lot of the time here and this will force the Villain out (An accidental use of the squeeze play tactic by the BB). I can of course extract money from the BB.. but he might have the fecking ace..

I still don't know what to do.

ps: I bet 75 on the flop and they both folded.. sigh. I seem to be making mistakes a lot recently. Maybe I'm just more aware of the mistakes I'm making. They do say awareness is the first step to recovery! In poker, awareness is vital... It's quite scary to think you could be making mistakes left right and centre without knowing..

Betting isn't *bad*, but you are bluffing !!

I like to check here, IN POSITION. Trying to get somebody to take a swing at the pot or maybe even hit a K and win a big pot.

I dont have to pay off both turn and river if he bets - usually calling one street is plenty to prevent a river bluff, and you might fold to river action from villain(s).

I think checking is a win-maximising play, and betting is a loss-minimizing play.

Hectorjelly

If you check call on the flop turn your opponents will put you on an ace, so you arent going to make much money anyway, so I think betting is slightly preferable given that its 3 way and not hu.