Giving away your hand?

corblimey

If I'm in a game and told everyone I had aces in order to get or not get action depending on what was on the board, and as it happens, I did have aces, my hand is null and void at showdown, right? Why is this?

DeadParrot

wait, what?
You incorporate the truth into a bit of speech play and then your hand is void?
Well yeah if its not the best hand
other than that I cant see why

BrokenArrows

Dont know why but i found this on a site of holdem rules

http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/holdem_rules.php

35. Verbally disclosing the true contents of your hand will cause the hand to be killed and a penalty will be assessed.

35a. A player cannot verify the contents of a live hand that was verbally
disclosed. Only a director or floorperson may check those
contents after the hand is over, but before the pot has been
awarded. If the hand is verified but is not in violation of
the previous rule, the contents will not be revealed by the
floor or director to anyone.

35b. If a verbally disclosed hand is killed through verification after the
hand, the pot goes to the best hand among the remaining players
at the showdown, or to the last player to fold.

35c. By definition, verbal disclosure must include the actual ranks or
suits, or any synonym to the ranks or suits. Nicknames for
specific two-hand combinations like “Big Slick” or “American
Airlines” will also constitute verbal disclosure.
Furthermore, only a definitive declaration will constitute
a verbal disclosure. Language like “may”, “might”, or “could”
could nullify a declaration as verbal disclosure.

36. Advising a player how to play a hand may result in a penalty.

37. Verbal declarations as to the content of a player’s hand at the showdown are not binding (cards speak); however at management’s discretion, any player deliberately miscalling his hand to induce other players to reveal their cards may be penalized.

38. Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Discussing cards discarded or hand possibilities is not allowed.

So according the the above rules you could get away with it if you said something like. I might have AA or it looks like i could have a str8 etc.

If you are going to say anything at all make sure its not definative.
ie "I HAVE ACES"

corblimey

Yeah, it's always been a bone of contention down my local cardroom - declare your hand truthfully while speech-playing kills the hand. I obviously can't say for sure if it's ever actually happened

Poker & Pints

Almost all tournaments have a rule that if you show your hand it is dead...some go on to include: if you verbally declare your hand it is dead as well.

I have yet to see a cash game do either....as a matter of fact this is often part of peoples games....many a time I have shown an A or a suit of a flushed board to influence someone...

This is called intimidation in the poker world. And in tourney's it is generally not tolerated, cash it is part of the game.

But as with most of the poker rules, it comes down to the TD and the house rules. SO it can be different.

I have seen a verbal declaration online in a huge tourney, from a big time player be declared acceptable after hundreds of moans from the players at the table and the observers. The with 7 players left and 2 players behind the player who had one of the smaller stacks typed in to the chat that he had AK and he would call any raise or that he was raising himself. Nobody raised and he proceeded to raise. Everyone folded, he turned over AK.

DeadParrot

weird.....

Ste05

If that's the rule then it's a joke, all it means is that speech play, by the rules, cannot and MUST not include the truth, therefore if someone says "I have Aces" it means they DEFINITELY don't have Aces, and if they do, they lose the hand. JOPKE

ianmc38

Hmm, this exact situation happened to me about 2 months ago. A guy showed a 6(representing a straight to the ten) and said he wasn't buying the pot, that he had a straight. I asked for his hand to be declared dead. The floor manager said it wasn't. His other card was of course a jack giving him a higher straight.

jimbling

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Bandana boy

BrokenArrows wrote:

Dont know why but i found this on a site of holdem rules

QUOTE]

I found this ad on the internet

18 year old asian beauty would like to meet men of any age for fun and frolics

but i am pretty sure it doent mean it is true

Ste05

Well I think showing a card is a different kettle of fish altogether, but you should be allowed to say what ever you want. Even as far as "I promise on my great grand mother's grave, that I have AcAs, you should fold" BECAUSE you never know it might not be true, after all this is Poker you know and Poker players have been know to fib a little from time to time.

But show one and it's dead.

All just my 0.02c, not a regular Live player so I'm open to a lashing but just common sense to me.

Bandana boy

Also many many times in live cash games i have shown my hand before calling/folding to see if i can get a reaction
There was never any complaints except from the guts who gave away that they couldnt beat my pocket pair

Poker & Pints

ianmc38 wrote:

Hmm, this exact situation happened to me about 2 months ago. A guy showed a 6 and said he wasn't buying the pot, that he had a straight. I asked for his hand to be declared dead. The floor manager said it wasn't.

Tourney: I believe it should be dead Cash: Okay

But house rules and TD make the call....until a formal governing body comes about to decide.

cooker3

This is a problem with poker, this exact situation happened to me on Monday when I was dealing, guy said in tournament what his hand was when he was comtemplating calling an all in, when he said it, I was thinking should I call this guys hand dead, in the end he did have that hand an called and I didn't call it dead, reason being was I just wasn't sure if I was correct or not and I absolutely want to avoid arguing with a player in a hand like this unless I know I am right and to be honest this thread had yet to really clear it up for me.
I suppose I shall ask Donal next time I see him what he would have done and go by that in future but just really shows up the point that there needs to be a set of standardised rules used.

Culchie

This happened in a hand where BP! and random player were involved in a hand on Good Friday, I was at same table.

Random player pushed all in on a King high board and declared he had AK, it was getting near business end of tourney and there was a flush draw on board, and said he didn't want a caller.

BP called and he did indeed have AK

Bp!

Sometimes its tough though, cause i genuniely believe he didnt know he couldnt do that and that he didnt do it to for any badness..the only badness was the call

At least he'll know for again.

If it was a big buy in tourney i would have called the TD

Hitman Actual

The dealers will surely correct me on this, but the only time I've seen this in the Fitz, the ruling was that the guy played the rest of the hand with his cards face up. And possibly could only call bets from then on, but could not bet or raise. Not 100% certain, but I think that was the ruling.

jacQues

lenny_leonard wrote:

The dealers will surely correct me on this, but the only time I've seen this in the Fitz, the ruling was that the guy played the rest of the hand with his cards face up. And possibly could only call bets from then on, but could not bet or raise. Not 100% certain, but I think that was the ruling.

This sounds very odd to me. The ruling itself makes perfect sense and I think it is the best ruling on this subject I've seen so far. But as a TD myself I find such things very hard to enforce. Are you going to check player's cards each time they declared their hand? I think not. Its probably easier to simply allow it or to disallow speechplay alltogether.

jacQues

Hitman Actual

I'm really not 100% certain at all, JacQues. It was ages ago and alcohol has massacred a lot of brain cells since then. I was hoping Roundtower et al would have been on to clarify.

RoundTower

I didn't reply to this or the other speech play thread because there are so many different rules here and they tend to be inconsistent and badly applied.

Personally I think speech play is a part of the game and the rules should be fairly liberal especially when the pot is being contested heads up. However a lot of dealers/floormen in this country first worked in England where the rules are extremely strict and clear, you may not discuss your hand or even show it to a spectator.

"You are not allowed to announce your hand correctly" -- this rule is garbage. Maybe this is the rule in some places, but if so, it is the result of someone misunderstanding the rules. The rule book linked below is not worth the paper it is written on.

califano

Culchie wrote:

BP called and he did indeed have AK

You mean to tell me Bp! didnt get lucky?.
I cant believe that BP!;)


Was this in the fitzwilliam?

charlesanto

RoundTower wrote:

"You are not allowed to announce your hand correctly" -- this rule is garbage. Maybe this is the rule in some places, but if so, it is the result of someone misunderstanding the rules. The rule book linked below is not worth the paper it is written on.

I have to disagree with RT...
If a person is allowed to accuretly anounce his/her hand it could become a very useful collusion tool.

RoundTower

charlesanto wrote:

I have to disagree with RT...
If a person is allowed to accuretly anounce his/her hand it could become a very useful collusion tool.

same with saying anything else about your hand. Seriously, if you were going to use something like this for collusion, how hard would it be to always name the card one rank above your card? So instead of telling the table "I have the king of clubs and the jack of spades" tell them "I have the ace of clubs and the queen of spades". You won't last long either way.

edit: it's not necessarily a bad rule to say you can't talk about your hand at all when the pot is not heads up. But having a rule to say you can lie about your hand, but you can't tell the truth about it, is retarded.

Bp!

rounders123 wrote:

You mean to tell me Bp! didnt get lucky?.
I cant believe that BP!;)

Im shocked and saddened! :eek:

it was on in Boyle smarta$$