Ace of Bass - I saw the sign

fuzzbox

The real question is - how many more tacky 80s references can I come up with?

PP 6-max 3/6
700 stacks
I have played a LOT with villain at 3/6, 5/10 and even at 10/20. He is a good player and a TAG for sure. He and I do a lot of raising and rerasing of each other and have had many ding dong battles.

Preflop
Folded to villain who opens his button for 22, hero makes it 75 with KK in the SB, folded to villain who calls. I think his most likely hand to call this bet, is a pair, but he might have AK or something like that. He would put me on a pair/big ace most of the time here.

Flop (150)
8h 7d 2c
I lead 125, villain smooth calls

Turn (400)
Ad
*sigh*
Having 500 or so left in the tank ... whats the plan?

bubbleking

ouch i hate when that happens :mad: i dont think you can check here because if the villain bets your gonna have to make a tough call. id bet 1/2 the pot here if the villain reraises than you have to fold. if he has QQ or JJ hes in no position to call. if he smooth calls i think your up to your neck in s*** :eek:

CoD

in these sort of battles he's calling your raise probably on anything. Although you said TAG. makes it harder.

I say fire a 120 bet out and see what he does. After all he could have QQ and be putting you on an Ace.
If he calls this i'm thinking another 120 bet or so blocking on the river, unless your convinced he has the Ace or 78, then accept your beat.

Rnger

would he call the flop with just 6 outs? I dont think your looking at an A but QQ/JJ/TT. If you pot it here, he folds most of the time. He's putting you on a high pp/AK. Now he's only ahead of a lower pp. He reraises pf with AA/KK. I check here and see what he does. He may still hold AK, also 78/77/88 is a small posibility so caution is still needed.

Checking is the only way you will make more money with the best hand.

ianmc38

Tough spot. We could be looking at 78s or a set here. I don't think he has an ace.

patmac

fuzzbox wrote:

The real question is - how many more tacky 80s references can I come up with?

THE RIVER by Bruce Springstein obviously.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Tough spot. We could be looking at 78s or a set here. I don't think he has an ace.

So what do you do?
If I was a betting man (and Im not) I would not put 78s in his range.
77 is, 88 is, but 78s probably not.

Bandana boy

I think betting is bad here QQ JJ fold AK/set calls
If your going to give the guy some respect check-fold but i prob check-call a bet check fold a push

fuzzbox

Ok ... onto the turn

I checked (well said Bandy) ... and villain bet 250 into 400. I have 520 or something, and villain covers.

Your move?

fuzzbox

bubbleking wrote:

ouch i hate when that happens :mad: i dont think you can check here because if the villain bets your gonna have to make a tough call. id bet 1/2 the pot here if the villain reraises than you have to fold. if he has QQ or JJ hes in no position to call. if he smooth calls i think your up to your neck in s*** :eek:

Bubble - think about what you have said here. And then see if you like your suggestion.

You say - Bet - because if villain has QQ or JJ then he will have to fold
You say - you cant check - because if villain bets you will have a tough call

bubbleking

fuzzbox wrote:

Bubble - think about what you have said here. And then see if you like your suggestion.

You say - Bet - because if villain has QQ or JJ then he will have to fold
You say - you cant check - because if villain bets you will have a tough call

yeah im after makin a right mess of this analysis...:o what i meant was bet if you think your ahead check and fold to a bet if you think your behind seems obvious enough thats what id do anyway....thats prob why im not playin in the higher cash tabels.

Rnger

Now thats tough! All your beating here is a bluff. He's betting half your stack and I dont think he wants a caller but I really cant be sure about this.

... push or fold... I'm more inclined to push. barely.

AK is unlikely because I think he would have folded the flop. 88 is unlikely cus its just 7-1 against, but what difference does that make once the flop is down. 78 is the least likely of the 3, I see him raising the flop with this.

QQ/JJ/TT are still strong possibilities

give the stressball a good sqeeze

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

So what do you do?
If I was a betting man (and Im not) I would not put 78s in his range.
77 is, 88 is, but 78s probably not.

Why? If he's decent then he'll open on the button with 78s.

Anyways as it's ruled out, we're afraid of 77/88/AA? Surely not a lone ace?

As it played out, i close my eyes and push after his turn bet..

He could even be betting with Td9d here.

fuzzbox

ianmc38 wrote:

Why? If he's decent then he'll open on the button with 78s.

Anyways as it's ruled out, we're afraid of 77/88/AA? Surely not a lone ace?

As it played out, i close my eyes and push after his turn bet..

He could even be betting with Td9d here.

Right - he can open on the button with 78s, but he wont likely call a reraise for 10% of his stack with it.

Also - closing eyes is ok in an online game ... dont do it live

ianmc38

fuzzbox wrote:

Also - closing eyes is ok in an online game ... dont do it live

Yeah when playing live I'll put on my jacket and tell everyone i'm going home.

It's been quite an effective fake tell for me recently. Grab my jacket when i've reraised all-in with an airbag. everyone has folded a few times because they think I must have a monster.

Lol.

fuzzbox

Results:

I didnt believe he had an Ace, so I checked to induce a bluff from 99-QQ, and then shoved, and hoped that he didnt have an Ace or a set.

He folded, thankfully.

I dont think he would bluff the river if I called and checked the river, so I guess shoving or folding are the only realistic options.

I think the Ace ruined my fun ... Im sure I woulda stacked him if a blank came down.

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

I dont think he would bluff the river if I called and checked the river, so I guess shoving or folding are the only realistic options.

If this is the case then a fold or call are the only options, and I prefer the call.

I'm totally confused by this sentence? Why would you push here, the only way you are getting called is if you are beaten. If you don't think he will bluff the river, just call and check it down. Unless you are trying to bluff a better hand off the pot. Surely he puts you solidly on AA or KK or a smaller chance of AK especially after the pre-flop and flop action OOP leading up to this, so you are actually over representing your hand now with this push, and therefore bluffing a worse hand out of the pot or committing all your chips when you are behind and when there was a chance for you to get away from the hand on the River. Of course the good thing about the push is it might fold out some hands that beat you, i.e. any lone A, even though you think it is unlikely and it certainly looks that way,

Or am I missing something here??

I might push here myself but with this read I think it is the wrong play. Call or Fold.

fuzzbox

If he wont bluff the river, but will only bet/call when he improves on the river to beat me, and I am committed to paying him off regardless ... then I should push now.

Bandana boy

I agree with danger mouse boy logic to check turn is still in place unless you think he folds a rag ace

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

I agree with danger mouse boy logic to check turn is still in place unless you think he folds a rag ace

What?

Bandana boy

I agree with STE05 (aka Danger mouse boy)

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

If he wont bluff the river, but will only bet/call when he improves on the river to beat me, and I am committed to paying him off regardless ... then I should push now.

Well if your calling the River regardless then I'd push here too, but my point was really about limiting losses moreso than maximising winnings. If he won't bluff the river, it means if he bets or calls your river bet then he can beat a pair of Aces, which you can't and so therefore you could fold to a river bet, saving yourself money. Also you can probably check it down and if you're beaten then you lose the minimum and if you have the best hand then you win exactly the same as you would have by pushing here. Same reward but less risk...

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

I agree with STE05 (aka Danger mouse boy)

As in check/call turn?

As opposed to check/raise all-in?

Bandana boy

Ok I might lay down turn depends on player but when he bets if i am calling it is because i think I am ahead in which case i want more money in the pot.
As i think i am ahead i do not believe he will/can call a re-raise so i call and hope to induce a river bet/induce a call to my value bet on river

Does that logic make sense ?

Bandana boy

fuzzbox wrote:

As in check/call turn?

As opposed to check/raise all-in?

yup check call a bet

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

Well if your calling the River regardless then I'd push here too, but my point was really about limiting losses moreso than maximising winnings. If he won't bluff the river, it means if he bets or calls your river bet then he can beat a pair of Aces, which you can't and so therefore you could fold to a river bet, saving yourself money. Also you can probably check it down and if you're beaten then you lose the minimum and if you have the best hand then you win exactly the same as you would have by pushing here. Same reward but less risk...

Good point.
I am not 100% sure that he wont bluff the river, and there is so much out there that I figure I have to pay him off, and I guess I dont want him to float me in the future.

Still, worth considering in the future.

I bet - that I do what you suggest next time, and he hits his 2 outer and I pay him off

sunzz

I have to agree with ste05 here I think that a push in this situation is a bad play.

You've raised 10% of the villians stack preflop and he has called, hes obviously calling here with a pp/AK.

When you push the turn you're only getting called by a hand that beats you, AK/AA/SET I don't see why you put your stack at risk, I see the benefit in a push to get a lone ace off the hand, but as you said he's TAG. so do you REALLY think he's calling 10% of his stack with ace rag when you can't see him fathoming a call with 78s. Maybe you don't want to smooth call if you put him on a pp and dont want the 5% chance he'll river you and take ur stack.

In my opinion its a 50/50 chance your taking. he's calling and has you well beat or he's folding a low pocket pair with your raise preflop and the ace out there.

When you called the turn its because Im assuming you thought you were ahead even with the ace out there, if not then you shouldn't have called, that said if you believe your ahead, A call is best, it would probs induce another bluff from the player and another smooth call, either way if you push he calls you've lost your stack (if he's holding AK/AA/set), if you call and check and he checks you win/lose but have not committed most of your stack.. if you check and he bets and you call and you lose you're only losing the same amount as when you push and he had you beat (if he called and had you beat that is).. where as if he bets and you call and your ahead you get paid off.


I think it was a risky play, but hey what do I know I dont play high level cash games

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

Ok I might lay down turn depends on player but when he bets if i am calling it is because i think I am ahead in which case i want more money in the pot.
As i think i am ahead i do not believe he will/can call a re-raise so i call and hope to induce a river bet/induce a call to my value bet on river

Does that logic make sense ?

Yep - sounds good. Perhaps I shoulda done that.

Hectorjelly

once the opponent bets the turn the pot is now so big that its more important to protect it than inducing bluffs or anything else, so a push if the only option. For those who are talking about protecting your stack, the pot is over 800 and you have 280 left. Which is more important?

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

once the opponent bets the turn the pot is now so big that its more important to protect it than inducing bluffs or anything else, so a push if the only option. For those who are talking about protecting your stack, the pot is over 800 and you have 280 left. Which is more important?

What exactly are you protecting?? Your KK on an A high board? This sounds like someone who can't lay down a big pair, :rolleyes:

The pot is not 800, it's 650, we have 520 behind, it's 250 to call and it's unlikely the Villain will bluff the River. A push will be called by a decent A, trips and nothing that we beat. This is a FOLD OR CALL decision (based on Fuzz's read) and not a push unless you're trying to bluff a lone A, (and as Fuzz says this is unlikely)

Also just to be clear, I didn't say anything about protecting your stack, there's quite a difference between minimising losses and protecting your stack.

EDIT: I also think the Pre-Flop raise is too big, what was your thinking behind this Fuzz??
Would 50 - 55 not have been a better amount??

Hectorjelly

Ste05 wrote:

What exactly are you protecting?? Your KK on an A high board? This sounds like someone who can't lay down a big pair, :rolleyes:

The pot is not 800, it's 650, we have 520 behind, it's 250 to call and it's unlikely the Villain will bluff the River. A push will be called by a decent A, trips and nothing that we beat. This is a FOLD OR CALL decision (based on Fuzz's read) and not a push unless you're trying to bluff a lone A, (and as Fuzz says this is unlikely)

Also just to be clear, I didn't say anything about protecting your stack, there's quite a difference between minimising losses and protecting your stack.

EDIT: I also think the Pre-Flop raise is too big, what was your thinking behind this Fuzz??
Would 50 - 55 not have been a better amount??

This sounds like someone who cant laydown a big pair? WTF are you talking about? Bluff a lone A? You think this guy called a preflop raise with Ax, called a big bet on a ragged flop with no pair and then we can push him off top pair for 280 bills into a 800 pot! Seriously Ste I expect a lot more from you.

If we are beat here then our opponent is going to put in the last 250 on the river anyway. If he outdraws us then he will put the last 250 in. In fact the only way the last 250 goes in on the river is if we are beaten, but we wont be able to fold. Once the pot gets so big in relation to your stack, At the stage where the pot is 3/4 times bigger than your stack (in fact when it gets to roughly the same size), you dont worry about playing the hand profitably, you make sure to charge people to outdraw you. We arent bluffing here, and we will amost never get called by a had we beat, but still its the only option because of the size of the pot.

Say the guy has QQ, which seems to be his most likely hand. if you raise all in here he will fold. If you chk call he is only going to put his last 250 if he hits a queen. ALSO and importantly, we are giving him a 1/20 shot to hit a Q and not only get out last 250, but the rest of the pot as well, where as if we go all in we in the pot now. (or at least charge him to hit his one outer).

Calling here is retarded

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

If we are beat here then our opponent is going to put in the last 250 on the river anyway. If he outdraws us then he will put the last 250 in. In fact the only way the last 250 goes in on the river is if we are beaten, but we wont be able to fold. Once the pot gets so big in relation to your stack, At the stage where the pot is 3/4 times bigger than your stack (in fact when it gets to roughly the same size), you dont worry about playing the hand profitably, you make sure to charge people to outdraw you. We arent bluffing here, and we will amost never get called by a had we beat, but still its the only option because of the size of the pot.

Say the guy has QQ, which seems to be his most likely hand. if you raise all in here he will fold. If you chk call he is only going to put his last 250 if he hits a queen. ALSO and importantly, we are giving him a 1/20 shot to hit a Q and not only get out last 250, but the rest of the pot as well, where as if we go all in we in the pot now. (or at least charge him to hit his one outer).

Calling here is retarded

All this is perfectly true, except all my analysis was based on was based on this bit from Fuzzbox:

Hectorjelly wrote:

I dont think he would bluff the river if I called and checked the river,

Therefore you can call and get a free showdown, and I say it again, you get the same result as a push but for less risk.

This guy obviously has (a) AK, (i.e. a lone A) (unlikely based on Flop call) (b) a set or (c) a pair under yours, the first 2 are calling your push the third is folding.

If he won't bluff the river then only a and b are betting, and c is checking down.

But again as I say if you're planning on calling any river bet regardless then a push is better, however by pushing all you do is maximise losses and neutralise the chances of getting outdrawn on a 20:1 shot.

But I take your point about the pot size relative to your stack, but is it never correct to lay down on the river here even if you are 90% sure you are beaten. It'll be 270 to win ~1170.

Bandana boy

Hectorjelly wrote:

If we are beat here then our opponent is going to put in the last 250 on the river anyway. If he outdraws us then he will put the last 250 in. In fact the only way the last 250 goes in on the river is if we are beaten, but we wont be able to fold.
Say the guy has QQ, which seems to be his most likely hand. if you raise all in here he will fold.

HJ does the same logic about how we can not lay down a bet on river because of pot in relation to stacks work both ways
If we raise we know QQ folds
So raising we win 0% more but lose when behind
By calling we now have huge pot and can bet/induce a bet or check depending on how we feel on the river and surely while the chances of been paid of by QQ are small they are bigger than 0%
I think we lead for 150 on river qq calls

fuzzbox

Bandana boy wrote:

HJ does the same logic about how we can not lay down a bet on river because of pot in relation to stacks work both ways
If we raise we know QQ folds
So raising we win 0% more but lose when behind
By calling we now have huge pot and can bet/induce a bet or check depending on how we feel on the river and surely while the chances of been paid of by QQ are small they are bigger than 0%
I think we lead for 150 on river qq calls

Never does QQ call a river bet (bet on river = push ... no way am I betting 150 of my remaining 250 !!!).

If I check.call the turn ... then I have to check.call the river.

I have induced a bluff, therefore I must call it. I dont believe he has an Ace, and I'm prepared to pay off a set.

I'm torn on this one .... the last 250 is small in comparison to the pot ... but he either drawing to 2 outs ... or I am, so its not like he has some sort of straight/flush draw (that will never fold incidentally).

This is an interesting question ... is it better to push and get it over with now, or call and check/call any river card and give him one more chance to desperation bluff ... but he really wont ever bluff the river after I call the turn......ho hum.

fuzzbox

Ste05 wrote:

EDIT: I also think the Pre-Flop raise is too big, what was your thinking behind this Fuzz??
Would 50 - 55 not have been a better amount??

50-55 ..... are you serious?

He opens to 22, my call makes the total pot 50, I raise 50 more and its 72 to go. So he has to call 50ish to win 100 and gets 2:1.

If I make it 50 to go, then he has to call 28 to win 76, and so gets nearly 3:1.

I'm OOP, and he will call 28 with a much larger range, and I have a big hand, and therefore I am giving away implied odds, by virtue of my hand being really strong. Why would I want to give him a cheap shot?

Hectorjelly

giving QQ a free shot to beat you is handing the guy $40 in equity and getting NOTHING in return

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

This is an interesting question ... is it better to push and get it over with now, or call and check/call any river card and give him one more chance to desperation bluff ... but he really wont ever bluff the river after I call the turn......ho hum.

It is a very tricky situation indeed and a great hand for discussion.

Any thoughts about the size of the Villains turn bet, I think it's a great bet, whatever he has, but could he have got the same result with 200??

fuzzbox

Hectorjelly wrote:

giving QQ a free shot to beat you is handing the guy $40 in equity and getting NOTHING in return

Agreed ... but if he bluffs more than 0%....

Ste05

fuzzbox wrote:

I'm OOP, and he will call 28 with a much larger range, and I have a big hand, and therefore I am giving away implied odds, by virtue of my hand being really strong. Why would I want to give him a cheap shot?

Ye apologies, my maths was a little off there, calculated the size of the pot when you called wrong.

Hectorjelly

i think this hand is as standard as can be. The ace doesnt change anything from our point of view, as no reasnable player will have an ace bar AA which has us ****ed already, however from his point of view we could have AK. So checking is better than betting the turn. Once he bets we give the game away completely if we call anyway, so we may as well push since we have so little left. Next hand

.

Goodluck2me

surely a check call on teh turn looks stronger than a check raise all in, is there any chance hes laying down 2pair putting you on trip aces? if so a check call on the turn and a push on the river could be more effective...no?

Rnger

I dont see him folding 2 pair or trips whatsoever considering the size of the pot.

cardshark202

I think its already been decided that 2 pair is well outside his range of holdings.

fuzzbox

goodluck2me wrote:

surely a check call on teh turn looks stronger than a check raise all in, is there any chance hes laying down 2pair putting you on trip aces? if so a check call on the turn and a push on the river could be more effective...no?

Im not bluffing - I believe I have the best hand. I dont want to look stronger, I want to take the pot down.

On third thoughts - I like my original line, and I'm with HJ. Winning the pot now supercedes any other thoughts. He would have to bluff 20% of the time on the river or more for me to consider check/call turn and check/call river ... and I dont think he will, so I should push. As Rueben says - the moment of truth is upon us.