Cash game newbie - QQ hand

ollyk1

Okay you are playing in a live 7 handed cash NL "home" game with some strong regular casino cash game players. You have only played one serious cash game in you life before. Very bad table selection!

Blinds are .50/.50 and the standard raise is 2 or 2.50.

You are in the CO and theres one limper and a raise to €10 from one of the strongest players at the table with a lot more cash game experience then you (he has ~200 on the table) and you look down at two ladies and you slightly cover the raiser. He has never raised this much before preflop including with JJ or QQ that you have seen showndown in an unraised pot.

You call (?? comments)

Everyone else folds.

Flop comes Th6h4s.

He bets €25 into a €21.50 pot. You smooth call. (??)

Turn is a Jh and its checked to you.

What do you do?? You don't have a queen of hearts.

fuzzbox

Jesus, thats a huge raise.
I might fold preflop, but then I have set odds ... but then I am probably gonna get sucked in later on a low(ish) flop.

You can prolly bet here, but you are bluffing, and might have to fire again on a non-heart river. He might well c/r you all in here with AhAx, or AhKx or something like that.

Bet 50 and fold a push.

Poker & Pints

I think I would underbet the pot a little more($35 or $40). Make it look like you are trying to maximize a flush. If you get popped back I put him on the AK nut flush or AA with the Ah.

5starpool

I would..... oh wait I was there. Better not say much then.

ollyk1

Let me just say there's not much I like about how I played this hand.

I almost folded preflop but I was thinking set and didn't have the ability to fold it if I'm honest. I felt like I was getting sucked in on the flop.

The only thing in my favour was my image was probably fairly tight and my flop call seemed to confuse the villian but I chose a horrible option (on reflection) on the turn and bet €25 when I agree 100% with Fuzzbox I should have bet at least €50 or checked. €25 achieved nothing and on reflection it was an info bet which is terrible.

My opponent flat called. I think this was possibly a mistake by my opponent but my image may have induced it - he didn't know where he was due to my terrible play and had a puzzled look.

I thought this reeked of KK with no heart (80% of the time and the other 20% I thought would be AA no heart I started off inculding AK in his range but I had ruled it out definitively with the smooth call). I think AK pushes or folds here. What do you think?

Would you push on a non heart river if checked to with the narrow range I think my opponent has knowing he's easily good enough to fold an overpair??

He'd also have no problem reloading and coming after me to get his money back. He knows in the long run he should take me.

ollyk1

5starpool wrote:

I would..... oh wait I was there. Better not say much then.

I think you can give a general opinion Dom without a results bias. I think this is easily the worst hand I played all night and I'd appreciate your opinion.

5starpool

ollyk1 wrote:

I think you can give a general opinion Dom without a results bias. I think this is easily the worst hand I played all night and I'd appreciate your opinion.

Ok, here goes. The raise here preflop was the mad thing. I think I would have flat called preflop with QQ too. An overpair here on a J high flop means that the only likely hands you are facing that you are beating is AK hearts or very unlikely TT if he figures you for A-big and bets. I think your call here as well as position induced the check from him on the heart turn. As Fuzz says, a bet here of 2/3 pot might just be enough to take it down as he will possibly fold KK, AA with no heart. A check is second best in my head here as you are clearly second best at this stage, no way you are ahead except to a total bluff bet on the flop.

What do I know, I got beat in that game

ollyk1

I'm not going to be around later to post on this thread so I'll do the spoiler thing for those who want answers on how this turned out.

I was 100% sure I was beaten but my evil brain was thinking a push for €140 could well win this hand because my poor play so far could have my skiled opponent thinking set or made nut flush. He could well fold those kings and think he'll get a better opportunity later.

But poker fish that I am all this went out the window when I hit the absolute miracle card the remaining black Q!!

I now did a cheeky value bet with absolute confidence for €35 and got very reluctantly called by KK no heart.

All the good players showed their class poker instincts and said not one word about how badly I had played the hand and just eyed my stack with their greedy eyes!! A lesson in how not to tap the glass.

Hectorjelly

I dont like how villain played his hand either

cardshark202

Villian played it terribly too. If this guy is a cash game regular in the fitz I want in. Out him.

5starpool

'Villian' is a regular poster here. I won't out him.

Edit: He said at the game he doesn't play live cash games much.

ollyk1

cardshark202 wrote:

Villian played it terribly too. If this guy is a cash game regular in the fitz I want in. Out him.

lol he can speak for himself. I'm trying to improve my game not his!!

Having played the hand so badly does anyone think I should push all-in or bet pot on a blank river knowing I'm behind big style?? I've only shown three hands in maybe two hours of play and all good hands.

Oh and apart from folding preflop or on the flop is there anything more I can learn from this hand?

mewso

I'm no expert cash player but surely raising to 20 times the BB with the second best hand in Hold'em is not a good play. I have this foolish notion you should aim to make money with the big hands. Not to invite several players but to raise enough that max 2 players will stay with you. Raising to €10 here risks knocking everyone out. Am I wrong in this thinking?

Hectorjelly

Knocking everyone out preflop isnt the problem, the problem is that you leak infor and in fact overrepresent your hand. Olly had QQ on a J hi flop and realised that his hand wasnt good (and the pot had only been raised, not reraised)- that is very bad

fuzzbox

musician wrote:

I'm no expert cash player but surely raising to 20 times the BB with the second best hand in Hold'em is not a good play. I have this foolish notion you should aim to make money with the big hands. Not to invite several players but to raise enough that max 2 players will stay with you. Raising to €10 here risks knocking everyone out. Am I wrong in this thinking?

If you are gonna get called by dudes with QQ ... then it seems fine .

But in general, it bites.

jbravado

Think its important to remember that this is a HOME cash game-messy affairs at the best of times!However the raise is a bit enthuiastic,surely logic follows that "he'd hardly raise that much with aa or kk would he!!?" What else did the villian do wrong?

ocallagh

I was the villain in this hand. Apart from the call on the river I'm not too bothered about with how I played the hand (in the context of the home-game)

Average raise was 5BBs.. we played it like a 0.50/1 game which saw some odd raises in terms of BBs.

Also, I do think we're missing one or two vital bits of information.. I'm positive you made it 2.50 UTG Olly. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm nearly certain!:D I don't think I ever opened the betting for more than $5.

Throughout the session I had bet, raised and re-raised with a lot of garbage including making it $3 UTG with 47o and firing two continuation bets with it on a KJ92 board (and showing the bluff!) I had also re-re-raised to $25 pre-flop (50 BBs:eek: ) with 88 when 3 others had stuck in $7 to see a flop... so I went with the "raise everything" tactic for the night and thought my range looked much wider than KK/AA here!! That is the reason the hand did not play out so well... I tried to look loose but Olly gave me respect for a good hand.

After Olly called the flop bet, and the Jack came on the turn the only hand I could see that I was ahead of was QQ.. I slowed down and decided to check the turn.. I prefer to look for information on every street. I don't go with a read from the start and stick to it. I was still not sure what Olly had... although after he checked the turn I was pretty sure he was in the same mood as I was in and had decided to check call with his hand too....ie: QQ!! I think Olly would have folded the only hand I was ahead of if I had bet the pot on the turn. If the queen doesn't come on the river I'm betting 9 times out of 10. As long as an ace or king doesn't come on the river I'm more likely to get paid by QQ by checking the turn... (well in this instance I think that's the correct play)

It was an interesting hand.. Neither of us played it particularly well. My biggest mistake was calling the bet on the river. I thought for a minute or so and even told Olly that he must have trips...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

cardshark202

The only part I found absolutely terrible Niall was the 20BB raise. If in fact it was a re-raise then I shall retract my barbed comments. There were other parts that weren't pretty but the rest wasn't as bad as it could have been.


PS: If you guys ever want some dead money in these home games give me a shout. Especially some home cash games. Sounds like fun.

careca

fuzzbox wrote:

Jesus, thats a huge raise.
I might fold preflop, but then I have set odds ... .

Am I missing something here ? How do you have set odds in this scenario or is it implied odds ?

fuzzbox

Yeah - stacks of 200, and having to call 10 to try to hit a set.

You might win 200 if you hit, and he almost certainly has a v.strong hand.

However, the protagonists seem to remember the hand differently, so this hand is a bit of a muddle.

ollyk1

No bloody hand histories on home games to sort this out.

Obviously if Niall feels he was reraising preflop with kings this changes the hand completely. I don't remember it that way or I would have said it. The €10 bet really stuck out in my mind and as a reraise I don't think it would so much. Reraises were VERY common on the night but I could well be mistaken.


By the way I definitely made a stupid €25 bet on the turn which achieved nothing.



As for Reggie's comments below can I just say "mission accomplished" we were hoping to attract more fish to the game and thats what this hand history was all about really!!:D

Villian played it terribly too. If this guy is a cash game regular in the fitz I want in. Out him.

PS: If you guys ever want some dead money in these home games give me a shout. Especially some home cash games. Sounds like fun.