Monster UTG in Full Ring NL - Limp/Reraise?

El Stuntman

Here's a situation that I have spent some time thinking about.

I am playing virtually nothing but full ring NL these days as I try to grind my way towards my target of doubling my initial bankroll. About 55% of the way there so I'm doing something right!

UTG and UTG +1, I am extremely conservative. I dump anything that isn't a Group 1 Sklansky hand (i.e. AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AKs). However I have had serious problem extracting maximum value for these hands in the past so I re-thought my strategy on how to play these pre-flop and basically came up with the limp/reraise plan. I limp into the pot with my monster UTG hoping for a raise and when it comes, then re-raise again to either take it down there and then or else isolate heads-up.

Live example from last night .50/1NL on Vegasbaby. I get KK UTG. Limp in. Player 5 raises to 5, Button calls, I reraise to 20. Player 5 folds and Button calls after ages thinking.
Flop came down AK5 rainbow and I busted him but that is not really the point - as I'm really only interested in the preflop action from the point of view of this discussion.

What do you think of the preflop moves - is this viable play or just stupid?

Only got two monsters UTG last night in 300 hands or so and the other 1, there were 7 limpers and I had to fold KK on a very scary board. Wasn't too worried about anyone figuring out this move on Vegasbaby given the general standard of play at these tables (any boardsies excepted!).

Waylander

I think the play is fine, the only issue I have with it, and it has caught me out on occassion, is if you get several limpers and no reraise, you may have to fold your high pair to a harmless looking board, and this can be tough to do in practice. Generally though, I like the limp reraise with AA or KK. I would not try it with any of the other hands mentioned though if there was a full table.

fuzzbox

Limp/reraise is fine - as long as your opponents call you.

When they stop - then start limp/reraising with much more than just AA/KK.

RoundTower

I played on that site for the first time last night and played some 50-1. Unless my game was really atypical you will just end up playing 7 way limped pots out of position. The pots are very rarely raised. Just make it 5 to go and you will get a caller or two. In a different game it would be different.

NickyOD

I think you have to be aware of your table image if you do this, although if this is online then that's completely irrelevent as no one will notice and you could still get paid off, but when I have done this in live cash games I've always made my hand completely transparrant and unless there is a complete moron at the table I usually only take down a smallish pot so I've founf there's a lot more value in just coming out with an open raise as my range is much wider and its dificult for anyone to put me on a monster hand. I'd probably only limp raise if there has been serial raising and reraising at the table.

fuzzbox

The last two times I've done it live, I have had AK, and been called in two spots both times.

The first time, I moved in on a K-high flop and everybody folded.
The second, I moved in on a Q-high flop and got called by KJ .. no pair and no draw.

I really dont like to make it 7, and get 7 callers when OOP. In this type of game (nobody folds for 7), then I rather limp, and hope somebody else raises, so I can play a much bigger pot relative to the stacks, against much fewer players. If I limp, I try not to shovel my whole stack in postflop on a J62 board when facing action from one of the 7 players who called me.

The mistake I see a lot of players doing (Well one of many), is to limp or smooth-call a raise with AA preflop, and then try to get all the money in on the flop ... regardless of what the flop is, and regardless of what the action is. Inevitably they lose. This *might* be ok in tourneys when the stacks are shallow, but it cannot be right in a cash game when the stacks are deep.

Getting it all in on a JT8 board with two clubs, when you hold red AA against two opponents willing to put 300 into the pot postflop .... is NOT a good situation for AA. .

Hectorjelly

I personally think limp reraising is a poor option under most circumstances. In any round of betting the n+1 bet is exponentially bigger and leaks more info than the n bet. For example a bet on the flop can mean anything from a bluff to the nuts, a raise on the flop is very rarely nothing. A 3 bet is hardly every anything but an overpair/set/nuts. Preflop a raise (should) mean very little. However a reraise has a very tight range. A 3 bet for most players is AA. So when you limp reraise you are deciding to try and make the 2nd raise rather than the 1st, which means you are giving off much more info about your hand. The benefit is that you can make a big raise and try and end the pot preflop - but that to me is just scared poker.

The times to limp reraise are if at a table where the players are so dumb they will call the rr with KJ and go broke on a K hi flop. Against players like this the move is good because you dont need to be deceptive at all against them. A paticularly good place to do it is utg with a maniac in the blinds. Then you get to trap a good amount of dead money in the pot and get HU with position against the crazy guy.

MrPillowTalk

I love playing people who allways limp raise with AA, I just call the raise dump if I miss and stack you if I hit, this is why its a poor play.

However its fine so long as your mixing it up by opening utg from time to time and limp calling. Everyone needs to make tough decisions with AA KK when you get in a multi way flop thats just pokah.

fuzzbox

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I love playing people who allways limp raise with AA, I just call the raise dump if I miss and stack you if I hit, this is why its a poor play.

However its fine so long as your mixing it up by opening utg from time to time and limp calling. Everyone needs to make tough decisions with AA KK when you get in a multi way flop thats just pokah.

By limp/reraising, you frequently kill those pesky implied odds. Sitting with 200, you limp utg, utg+1 calls, next raises to 9, 4 callers, around to you, and you LRR, you are making it a healthy ~50 to play, and its simply not correct to call with any hand that you might hold. If you call, then you are losing money to the LRR guy (unless, of course you hold AA).

In practice, ppl do call this, and therefore its fine to do it.

If ppl do not call it, or you have 1000, and you can only make it 50, and your opponent knows what you have as a result, then its not good play.

MrPillowTalk

fuzzbox wrote:

By limp/reraising, you frequently kill those pesky implied odds. Sitting with 200, you limp utg, utg+1 calls, next raises to 9, 4 callers, around to you, and you LRR, you are making it a healthy ~50 to play, and its simply not correct to call with any hand that you might hold. If you call, then you are losing money to the LRR guy (unless, of course you hold AA).

In practice, ppl do call this, and therefore its fine to do it.

If ppl do not call it, or you have 1000, and you can only make it 50, and your opponent knows what you have as a result, then its not good play.

your right its fine if players will raise so much and stacks are not that deep however I find that this is rarely the case as players dont tend to reraise so strongly.

fuzzbox

MrPillowTalk wrote:

your right its fine if players will raise so much and stacks are not that deep however I find that this is rarely the case as players dont tend to reraise so strongly.

Case 1 shows a typical pot limit game. The guy raises pot after a couple of limpers. 4 callers (Also typical), then hero gets to LRR for 50 or so.

We dont need them to reraise strongly, we just need them to raise.

If, by raising utg, we will get 7 callers anyway, then LRR is far superior to open raising. This describes typical live PL games in this country.

FastMachine

Well, I've said before I'm a fan of limpreraising and it's been very profitable for me so I can't knock it. I've been playing a much more aggressive game since I've temporarily (:() dropped levels though so I do open raise with AA and KK now as I'm raising with a very wide range of hands. I'd still limpreraise AA now and again, as I've been reraising with lots of hands too so no one would automatically give me credit for it. That said, not many people seemed to give me credit for it before anyway, even though I played a very tight game. No one seemed to want to fold KK-JJ/AK which was great. Limpreraising KK is more tricky than with AA as you could hit an A high flop or be up against AA preflop. The thing about limpreraising with AA/KK is that if you reraise big enough, which is what you should be doing, you take away implied odds for sets so you can never make a mistake even if you end up all in to someone's flopped set. Make the villain commit at least 1/7 of his stack preflop.

EP in a full ring game, as opposed to 6-seat, I'm definately limpreraising with AA unless I'm the only caller, then I might sneak in and try to stack the opponent. The only problem with limpreraising at .50/1 is that the table might be too passive and you'll rarely get to use it.

MrPillowTalk

fuzzbox wrote:

Case 1 shows a typical pot limit game. The guy raises pot after a couple of limpers. 4 callers (Also typical), then hero gets to LRR for 50 or so.

We dont need them to reraise strongly, we just need them to raise.

If, by raising utg, we will get 7 callers anyway, then LRR is far superior to open raising. This describes typical live PL games in this country.

point taken I rarely play live cash

RoundTower

fuzzbox wrote:

Case 1 shows a typical pot limit game. The guy raises pot after a couple of limpers. 4 callers (Also typical), then hero gets to LRR for 50 or so.

We dont need them to reraise strongly, we just need them to raise.

If, by raising utg, we will get 7 callers anyway, then LRR is far superior to open raising. This describes typical live PL games in this country.

You have to take into account the times when you make it 7, the maniac on the button makes it 45 with 88 and then calls for 1/3 his stack when you make it 160 to go. Even though this happens much less often than you getting a simple limp/reraise in, it is 3 or 4 times more profitable due to the sheer volume of money going into the pot.

El Stuntman

just to illustrate the point...have just got AA UTG and UTG+1 twice in 5 minutes on Vegasbaby (two different tables).
Limped/reraised both times and got re-reraised!! Ended up HU and all-in pre-flop for 2 * $200+ pots (100NL tables) and took both down vs KK and JTsooooted (wtf?).

At this level, works like a charm..up at the HJ level, I can appreciate why not but will keep pulling this move down here at the baby tables! Playing rockier than Sylvester Stallone in his prime but these guys take no notice....

RoundTower

If they're going to re-reraise you, they'd probably have reraised you if you'd just raised in the first place. You got it all in with AA against KK preflop, that doesn't justify one line over the other.