OK its D-day, what do you do?

Eru

OK, you wake up in the morning, the Gardai are too be disbanded and as the new minister for justice the ball is in your court. Thankfully the tax payer has granted you a blank cheque book and vast powers.

You now have to create a completely new police force/service. You must decide the manpower, the uniform, the equipment and resources, the pay, accountability. You have the existing laws in place but your being forced to restrict the new force on one side but are being urged to be tougher on crime from the other. You must also decide what powers to abolish, what new laws to implement and new proceedures for your police force.

Go...

And just so you know, theres no point in directing comments or questions at myself. I will not be responing until maybe at the end and then not as a Garda. I will not limit other Gardai from commenting but I would rather they waited.

Edited to add: Theres no point in making a statement without backup, show how and where you would implement things. Theres no point in saying send Gardai too the moon unles you can show how you would get them there and when. backup your plans people.

walrusgumble

fair play to ya man, not many willing to answer, very good at complaining about the gardai and mcdowell but not much when it comes to what they would do.

is there such thing as community service as a punishment in ireland like in england? i dont think i ever heard of it, not sure. would this be better than throwing people into jail for a few days and fining them, or when they get a suspended service, or youths causing anti social behaviour etc, make the do a certain amount of hours helping the council, voluntary groups. some really crap job like sending them to work in some drug rehab place or prison, so they may get a wake up call realising crime dont pay. then again how many ex prisoners recommit a crime?

Rockdolphin

Here's the answer : McSpecials

maidhc

a) Privatise speeding cameras under a well drawn up contract. Gardaí have shown themselves incapable and it is worth a try (take as response to http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054918241)

b) Leave most powers unchanged. I think gardaí generally use them fairly. I would neither increase nor decrease what is there already. Also msot of the laws have been well tested in the courts now so to change them would be silly.

c) Introduce an ombudsman with power to deal with the messers efficiently.

d) Make them more accountable in how they roll out new technology..e.g. ANPR which has the capability of being nasty, if we go down the english route. (And old technology..e.g. video recording machines purchased for interviewing rooms a year or two ago which the Comptroller said was silly and a waste of money).

e) Give much better pay to members of the forces with university degrees (that may already be the case).

f) Go with the reserves. Well worth trying; although payment of expenses and a bit more training would be good.

g) Regualate how they use phone records (DPA says they might be abusing it...)

h) Instill in *some* members that they are there to help the public, and that the public isn't an enemy they are at war with.

Probably many more things to do but I have temporarily run out of ideas. The police service in Ireland is very very good; but that isnt to say it is perfect (like everything else).

Esel

I submit my resignation, and go on Morning Ireland to invoke the memory of my grandfather, whe wasn't in the GPO on Easter Monday, 1916 - he had the foresight to always keep a sufficient supply of stamps at home. Then I emigrate to Iraq, where they have a brand new police force.

Also, you have no power to limit other Gardai from commenting. Only the Micheal McMods can do that.

Our man in Havana

I would arm any new police force here.

BTW, I don't expect the private speed cameras to get up and running. The High and Supreme courts will be full of constitutional challenges to stop them. Knowing this country one of them will succeed.

maidhc

Bond-007 wrote:

Knowing this country one of them will succeed.

Knowing the fact we have a written constitution and an independent judiciary. It isn't the courts fault when something is found unconsitutional, but those who drafted the Bill in the first place.

I wouldnt arm the police force anymore than they are already. Defiantely not the guys on the beat. Perhaps the ERU should be expanded a little though.

There was an intelligent post here before that suggested that civilians replace most of the gardaí doing admin work. Definately a good idea.

Exon

Bond-007 wrote:

I would arm any new police force here.

The regular guards don't need firearms althou Ireland seems to be getting more and more dangerous.

Trojan911

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

You now have to create a completely new police force/service. You must decide the manpower, the uniform, the equipment and resources, the pay, accountability. You have the existing laws in place but your being forced to restrict the new force on one side but are being urged to be tougher on crime from the other. You must also decide what powers to abolish, what new laws to implement and new proceedures for your police force.

Right then, lets make this thread a little less barren and start spending this blank cheque.....

Some of the proposals I'm going to suggest may or may not be currently in place..

1. Manpower: Up the members to 14,000. Clear out indoor postings predominately secured by serving Gardaí and make those postings into civilian postings with the exception of custody sergeant. Introduce a system to get the long term sick back to work i.e. reduce pay to half after six months, at the discretion of the Commissioner. More frequent visits to the Chief Medical Offier etc. Actively recruit for more females and ethnic minorities to join up. Introduce a Community Race Relations programme where all officers will attend an awareness seminar to learn more on culture & diversity, also homophobia etc from the LGBT community, this will be refreshed once a year where practicable. Introduce a Garda Reserve Force.

Introduce an accelerated promotion proceedure for degree holders to climb the ranks quicker.

2. Uniform: Leave as it is, however make it more wearer friendly (I believe there are complaints re the inferiority of the uniform.

3. Equipment Issue the choice of an ASP (retractable Baton) or the PR24 baton, C.S. incapacitant spray, quick cuffs, tailored body armour (to fit overt & covertly), have a mandatory refresher course for the cuffs, batons and spray every six months. Upgrade the Comms system. Revisit how vehicles are monitored and serviced and upgrade to new models every year. Introduce VAS cars (Video and Audio Surveillance) and also introduce the "Black Box" data box to all reponse vehicles upwards.

4. Resources: Introduce a minimum strenght for each team that parades for duty at any given time. Deploy in areas that need the resources most. (Intelligence led). Up the ERU but not arm the whole service.

5. Pay Starting pay will be equal from day one at Templemore for the probationer i.e. He/She will earn the same as the next person on the street up to the next pay incriment. This will ideally form an attraction from a more wider section of the community.

6. Accountability All officers will be accountable for their actions on or off duty and will be expected to abide by the discipline code of conduct. Mandatory dismissal for any officer irrespective of rank caught drink/drug driving or speeding in excess of 100mph (off duty) with the loss of pension rights (Deterrant). Revamp the Complaints Department and be actively seen by the public to be cracking down on corruptness.

Introduce and execute a debreifing system after a shift and also after a traumatic event and operate a counselling referral system should the need be.

Introduce a drink/drug referral system for officers who may be vulnerable to one or the other or both with a view to treating that officer without fear of dismissal (serious offences disregarded).


Make the Gardaí more open, honest and fair in their dealings with the public, lose the stigma that surrounds them as being oppressive and unapproachable. Make sure the complainant (victim) is adhered to i.e. follow up call, update on case, V.S.S. referral etc also have the victim of crime letter despatched to the victim within ten working days. Create an independant Body to investigate complaints from members of the public (similar to the Police Complaints Commission in the UK).

As for new laws, well I would leave the current ones in place and replace when needed, I would revamp all drug laws to bring them up to date with current drugs. Introduce a cautioning system for first time offenders (minor crimes i.e. minor shoplifting, minor criminal damage, minor possesion of class B drugs etc) and introduce a fast track system to bring cases to court quicker.

I would add a DPP workshop. That is to have a criminal barrister come into the larger police stations on a weekly or monthly basis and go through the quality of evidence that is about to be presented at court. The reason being, to prevent any hiccups when the trial goes ahead or to rectify any potential unforseen hiccups that may occur.

Speeding in excess of 100mph would be an automatic two year ban and or €5,000 fine or both. Drink driving would be an automatic ban for three years and a fine of €5,000 or six months imprisonment or both. Failing to provide a specimen of breath, urine or blood would be an automatic five year ban and same fine same gaol term.

There, I think I now have the country bankrupt, but this would be my kind of Police Service. A safer more up to date one.... Now, as I am the Minister for Justice, I'm off on a jolly to New York for two weeks at your expense to look at erm, erm, erm, something to do with police?......

TJ911...

PS: Design a Firearms Act where the decent person is not affected only the criminal fraternity. (That one is for you Sparks)

maidhc

Trojan911 wrote:

5. Pay Starting pay will be equal from day one at Templemore for the probationer.

Out of interest, why, and how would it improve policing. I can see how bettter pay would attract a better caliber of individual, but why equal starting pay rather than say a 10%/20% for everyone across the board.

Teachers, for example, start on around 25k, and work up to over twice that.

Trojan911

maidhc wrote:

Out of interest, why, and how would it improve policing. I can see how bettter pay would attract a better caliber of individual, but why equal starting pay rather than say a 10%/20% for everyone across the board.

Teachers, for example, start on around 25k, and work up to over twice that.

Revised it there Maidhc................ is that any clearer? :cool:

TJ911...

maidhc

Trojan911 wrote:

Revised it there Maidhc................ is that any clearer? :cool:

TJ911...

Ah OK! Sorry about that!

hullaballoo

Trojan911 wrote:

Right then, lets make this thread a little less barren and start spending this blank cheque.....

Some of the proposals I'm going to suggest may or may not be currently in place..

1. Manpower: Up the members to 14,000. Clear out indoor postings predominately secured by serving Gardaí and make those postings into civilian postings. Introduce a system to get the long term sick back to work i.e. reduce pay to half after six months, at the discretion of the Commissioner. More frequent visits to the Chief Medical Offier etc. Actively recruit for more females and ethnic minorities to join up. Introduce a Community Race Relations programme where all officers will attend an awareness seminar to learn more on culture & diversity, also homophobia etc from the LGBT community, this will be refreshed once a year where practicable. Introduce a Garda Reserve Force.

2. Uniform: Leave as it is, however make it more wearer friendly (I believe there are complaints re the inferiority of the uniform.

3. Equipment Issue the choice of an ASP (retractable Baton) or the PR24 baton, C.S. incapacitant spray, quick cuffs, tailored body armour (to fit overt & covertly), have a mandatory refresher course for the cuffs, batons and spray every six months. Upgrade the Comms system. Revisit how vehicles are monitored and serviced and upgrade to new models every year. Introduce VAS cars (Video and Audio Surveillance) and also introduce the "Black Box" data box to all reponse vehicles upwards.

4. Resources: Introduce a minimum strenght for each team that parades for duty at any given time. Deploy in areas that need the resources most. (Intelligence led). Up the ERU but not arm the whole service.

5. Pay Starting pay will be equal from day one at Templemore for the probationer i.e. He/She will earn the same as the next person on the street up to the next pay incriment. This will ideally form an attraction from a more wider section of the community.

6. Accountability All officers will be accountable for their actions on or off duty and will be expected to abide by the discipline code of conduct. Mandatory dismissal for any officer irrespective of rank caught drink/drug driving or speeding in excess of 100mph (off duty) with the loss of pension rights (Deterrant). Revamp the Complaints Department and be actively seen by the public to be cracking down on corruptness.

Introduce and execute a debreifing system after a shift and also after a traumatic event and operate a counselling referral system should the need be.

Introduce a drink/drug referral system for officers who may be vulnerable to one or the other or both with a view to treating that officer without fear of dismissal (serious offences disregarded).


Make the Gardaí more open, honest and fair in their dealings with the public, lose the stigma that surrounds them as being oppressive and unapproachable. Make sure the complainant (victim) is adhered to i.e. follow up call, update on case, V.S.S. referral etc also have the victim of crime letter despatched to the victim within ten working days. Create an independant Body to investigate complaints from members of the public (similar to the Police Complaints Commission in the UK).

As for new laws, well I would leave the current ones in place and replace when needed, I would revamp all drug laws to bring them up to date with current drugs. Introduce a cautioning system for first time offenders (minor crimes i.e. minor shoplifting, minor criminal damage, minor possesion of class B drugs etc) and introduce a fast track system to bring cases to court quicker. Speeding in excess of 100mph would be an automatic two year ban and or €5,000 fine or both. Drink driving would be an automatic ban for three years and a fine of €5,000 or six months imprisonment or both. Failing to provide a specimen of breath, urine or blood would be an automatic five year ban and same fine same gaol term.

There, I think I now have the country bankrupt, but this would be my kind of Police Service. A safer more up to date one.... Now, as I am the Minister for Justice, I'm off on a jolly to New York for two weeks at your expense to look at erm, erm, erm, something to do with police?......

TJ911...

PS: Design a Firearms Act where the decent person is not affected only the criminal fraternity. (That one is for you Sparks)

An excellent post. So much so that it's going into my signature. I am going to reserve my opinion on this until after my exams, at which point, I will probably address some of the legal issues and a lot of the PR issues around the force.

I know it might be a big ask TJ, but is there any chance you could get together a rough figure on what that would cost? Ok, it's a very big ask - but it would be worth a lot to know.

padser

Yeah I too will prob have to leave this one till after my exams.

However as a starting point maybe a lot of the guards problems stem from the fact that its not a viable career to most people coming out of university with a decent degree. Thus its ranks suffer from not having high calibre people availible to it for the higher positions/middle management 10/15 years down the line.

So Id agree with Maidhc in introducing higher starting pay for recruits with university qualifications, but also I would restructure the recruiting so that they are also entering a slightly higher level (Ie not at the bottom rung of the ladder).

My reasoning is that to my mind the majority (although clearly not all) of the highest preformers and highest calibre people in this country are coming out of our universities with very good degrees. They can walk into jobs with big companies and dont have to start at the lowest level (if the company recruits non graduates) or else enter a profession where everyone is a graduate.
The guards are one of the exceptions in that having taken 3/4 yrs to get a degree you are still expected to start at the same level as someone who has not.

So in order to attract graduates I would make it a more attractive option to them.

Trojan911

hullaballoo wrote:

An excellent post. So much so that it's going into my signature. I am going to reserve my opinion on this until after my exams, at which point, I will probably address some of the legal issues and a lot of the PR issues around the force.

I know it might be a big ask TJ, but is there any chance you could get together a rough figure on what that would cost? Ok, it's a very big ask - but it would be worth a lot to know.

Cheers,

There is one more point I would add and that is to introduce a DPP workshop. That is to have a criminal barrister come into the larger police stations on a weekly or monthly basis and go through the quality of evidence that is about to be presented at court. The reason being, to prevent any hiccups when the trial goes ahead or to rectify any potential unforseen hiccups that may occur. As for the cost you asked for, well that is out of my league but I would hazard a guess at approximately €250m or thereabouts..... If there is anything I can assist you with your law exams on PR for the Gardaí then just PM me. If I can help you or anyone I will...

TJ911...

See revised entry above...........

Hagar

Adopt the French system of 3 man, yes man, patrols. The patrols are then grouped in threes. It works well. Gives the guys on the front line more immediate manpower, cuts down corruption within the force. Because a) the 3 man partnerships are not permanent and b) in any group of 3 people 2 will always get on better so there is always one outsider keeping them honest.

Train them properly, then arm them.
Then you can drop the height restriction because a man 5'5'' with a gun is actually 6'7''.

padser

Hagar wrote:

in any group of 3 people 2 will always get on better so there is always one outsider keeping them honest.

I love the logic

Trojan911

padser wrote:

So Id agree with Maidhc in introducing higher starting pay for recruits with university qualifications, but also I would restructure the recruiting so that they are also entering a slightly higher level (Ie not at the bottom rung of the ladder).

I have revisited my post several times to fine tune it and one of my proposals would be to introduce an accelerated promotion scheme for university graduates. They would start at the bottom like everyone else and then after their probationary period start the rapid acsent in the ranks.

TJ911...

coolhandluke

Trojan911 wrote:

I have revisited my post several times to fine tune it and one of my proposals would be to introduce an accelerated promotion scheme for university graduates. They would start at the bottom like everyone else and then after their probationary period start the rapid acsent in the ranks.

TJ911...

Couldn't agree with that,just because someone is good at passing exams does not mean they will make a good garda.I've come across a good few people who've had an amazing ability to learn everything in a book not understood what's it's meant and had absolutely no cop on in a real life situation.

My suggestion would be that all units should be rotated on a permanent basis no exceptions,everybody should get their turn at the "good" stuff.Everyone should be capable of doing everyone else's job and clicks should not be allowed to form,that being the case wasters should not be tolerated.

hullaballoo

coolhandluke wrote:

Couldn't agree with that,just because someone is good at passing exams does not mean they will make a good garda.I've come across a good few people who've had an amazing ability to learn everything in a book not understood what's it's meant and had absolutely no cop on in a real life situation.

My suggestion would be that all units should be rotated on a permanent basis no exceptions,everybody should get their turn at the "good" stuff.Everyone should be capable of doing everyone else's job and clicks should not be allowed to form,that being the case wasters should not be tolerated.

Yeah, but he said "university". There's a little more to university than learning off a book and reproducing it. If you do that, you might get a bare pass. The idea behind reading books is to give you a broader outlook on things, and to allow you to think for yourself and analyse situations.

It seems to me that the GS could do with an injection of highly educated staff. I'd like to see a department to rival New SY.

coolhandluke

hullaballoo wrote:

Yeah, but he said "university". There's a little more to university than learning off a book and reproducing it. If you do that, you might get a bare pass. The idea behind reading books is to give you a broader outlook on things, and to allow you to think for yourself and analyse situations.

It seems to me that the GS could do with an injection of highly educated staff. I'd like to see a department to rival New SY.

There's hundreds of highly educated people in the guards and there's no problem doing courses once your in,they'll even refund you the money if you pass.
College graduates get a bit of a bump up the pay scale but why you think they deserve some kind of special treatment is beyond me.

hullaballoo

I said "university" graduates. Not college graduates. It's completely different.

coolhandluke

hullaballoo wrote:

I said "university" graduates. Not college graduates. It's completely different.

Are you taking the piss ?.Type college into google and see what u get. College/University there all the same.

hullaballoo

coolhandluke wrote:

Are you taking the piss ?.Type college into google and see what u get. College/University there all the same.

No they aren't. Universities operate on an entirely different standard to ordinary colleges.

Red Hand

No, theyre not. University gives a broader education than colleges. To be classified as a university, the institution must have philosphy, mathematics and physics department. (Open to correction on that) Colleges are more specialised.

hullaballoo

I'm not trying to flame anyone, but Universities are largely research-based, and would yield a greater service to the GS as a result. It's not snobbery, it's just life.

coolhandluke

hullaballoo wrote:

I'm not trying to flame anyone, but Universities are largely research-based, and would yield a greater service to the GS as a result. It's not snobbery, it's just life.

In what way exactly ?

Trinity College Dublin
University College Dublin
University College Cork

I just said there was hundreds of highly educated members in the force ,u started the whole college/University debate.
Not being smart but if that's the sort of nit picking to be expected from "University Graduates" thank god you have to rough it like the rest of us,some of our more senior colleagues wouldn't take too kindly to some little smart arse telling them what to do.

hullaballoo

coolhandluke wrote:

In what way exactly ?

Trinity College Dublin
University College Dublin
University College Cork

I just said there was hundreds of highly educated members in the force ,u started the whole college/University debate.
Not being smart but if that's the sort of nit picking to be expected from "University Graduates" thank god you have to rough it like the rest of us,some of our more senior colleagues wouldn't take too kindly to some little smart arse telling them what to do.

Perhaps therein lies the problem.

coolhandluke

hullaballoo wrote:

Perhaps therein lies the problem.

Possibly,but for now the only thing that counts is experience !.

Esel

Expecting Karlito to be handing out penalty points for off-topicness pretty soon.

maidhc

The point about attracting university graduates (I would say anyone with a degree, no matter what institution) is that you will generally, although not always, attract people who are highly qualified.

When a neighbour joined the gardaí I remember everyone saying it was a "waste of talent", that it was a rough job and badly paid for what you have to put up with. He did a degree in computer science, and I can only presume his knowledge will be put to good use in the force at some stage; but it is a pity he doesn't get much recognition for it.

If the banks and large companies see a value in attracting graduates as a way of getting a ready supply of intelligent people, why shouldn't the gardaí? Or do them see themselves as only doing jobs that don't require intelligence, but only muscle?

padser

coolhandluke wrote:

Are you taking the piss ?.Type college into google and see what u get. College/University there all the same.

Google, clearly the definitive answer to the differences between a college and a university.

Why are only 7 higher level institutions in Ireland allowed to call themselves universities? If there is no difference why make the distinction?

maidh wrote:

If the banks and large companies see a value in attracting graduates as a way of getting a ready supply of intelligent people, why shouldn't the gardaí? Or do them see themselves as only doing jobs that don't require intelligence, but only muscle?

Exactly. All large companies worldwide feel the need to recruit graduates and run graduate training training programmes. They dont do this out of the godness of their heart, or because they like to employ people who cost more. They do this because organisations need top quality, educated, capable people to run them.

Are university graduates the only people with these attributes??
No
Are they one of the groups where these attributes are most prevelent?
Yes.

All commercial companies surviving in a competitive enviroment need these people in order to be efficient, well run, disiplined, streamlined and adapt to changing environments. The GS need them as well.

To get back to the OP, the biggest problem in the guards is the lack of 'high calibre' people being recruited into it.
By high calibre I mean the kind of people, who if they went into the private sector would be an area manager in a large company, a plant manager in industry, a CEO, as a solicitor, a stockbroker or on the boards of companies.

Think about the 70's 80's and the high unemployment. A steady job in the GS had very attractive qualities back then and did attract high quality people.

Why would someone leaving university in this day and age, who knows he/she can be a qualified accountant in 3 yrs, or an engineer or a manager etc (with almost unlimited earning potentional) settle for a job in GS where he/she starts off with someone who dropped out of school last year and who's alternitive employment is a minimum wage job doing whatever.

If you were a graduate faced with this option what would you do?

Trojan911

maidhc wrote:

When a neighbour joined the gardaí I remember everyone saying it was a "waste of talent", that it was a rough job and badly paid for what you have to put up with. He did a degree in computer science, and I can only presume his knowledge will be put to good use in the force at some stage; but it is a pity he doesn't get much recognition for it.

Correct. I know a fella who was high up in the banking world in the City of London, he joined the City of London Police and surprise, surprise, not even his probation had finished when he was deployed into the fraud squad (credit card/banking fraud dept) so his knowledge was being used to combat fraud....

TJ911...

Thirdfox

And just to clarify TCD is actual part of the University of Dublin (no college mentioned there! )

Eru

esel wrote:

Expecting Karlito to be handing out penalty points for off-topicness pretty soon.

I think everyone would be banned by now if I did

I cant comment fully as I dont have time which is a shame because your answers are piss poor (joke) but for now I will say this: The Gardai all have degrees in policing, it covers what we do. Banks dont headhunt or pay extra for someone who is a qualified PE instructor or teacher. They dont need or desire graduates in philosophy. They employ and pay people trained in relevent areas. Exactly what the Gardai do, they pay and encourage graduates however the course must be relevent and the one we receive (remember the Garda college is recognised the world over) is the one most relevent to our jobs. What other courses are deemed really relevent? Forensic science? Pilot? Law? IT? Too a degree yes they would be an asset as would some working backgrounds but the force trains people for those areas anyway.

I find the assumption that someone with a degree is somehow 'superior' too be snobbish. By that thinking I am superior to half the users here as you are all still training whereas I have 2 degrees.

I am impressed by how many suggestions have been made which actually do already exist within the force. It shows we are doing a lot of things right and that people have put some thought into the subject however the majority are simple 'buzz words' with no mention of how, where, when or why.

padser

Karlitosway1978 wrote:

Banks dont headhunt or pay extra for someone who is a qualified PE instructor or teacher. They dont need or desire graduates in philosophy. They employ and pay people trained in relevent areas.

A degree, (for the most part and excluding degrees such as engineering, medicine etc which fulfil the purpose I will outline but also are needed to obtain professional qualfications in those fields) is not about 'what' you learn per say. Its about the fact that you were able to do it.

Companies recognise that someone who graduates with a 2.1 or a 1.1 will learn the skills they need very quickly. Its almost irrelevent that they have been studying History or Law, and that the skills required are business skills. I was at a talk from PWC a few months back and at least 5 times during the hour it was stressed to us that graduates from all disiplines were both considered and desired.

From the bank of Ireland website

http://www.bankofireland.ie/html/gws/students/graduate/opportunities/General_Content_1000013.html#doclink5

On the bank of Ireland website wrote:

Candidates should have (or will attain in 2006) a strong honours degree ideally equivalent to a 2.1 or higher. We accept and welcome applications from all academic disciplines.

Im sure I could find the equivalent page on almost any banks website world wide. The vast vast majority of big firms will take graduates from any disipline.

Eru

padser wrote:

Its about the fact that you were able to do it.

The 2 years training and the degree we get from Templemore prove that. what would a BA in arts prove on top if the Garda training? You are ignoring the fact that we do go to college to beocme Gardai.

padser wrote:

The vast vast majority of big firms will take graduates from any disipline.

And what jobs do they get? What pay? You can have degrees coming out of your ass, doesnt mean you will get a higher job or pay within the company. Im baffled why people think the Gardai should have a system that allows a graduate in philosophy get instant promotion or raises. Is it of any benefit within the Gardai? Does it make him/her a better Garda? In fact, isnt he or she still doing the same job as other Gardai on the beat?

padser

Ok iv been browsing the garda website and it would appear from it
'The following year, the two year Student/Probationer Education/Training Programme was accredited by the N.C.E.A. with the Award of a National Diploma in Police Studies'. So this would appear to be a two year diploma.

I probably should have specified when I said graduate, I meant graduating with a DEGREE (or possibly today they are known as higher degrees). So I was talking about (I think anyway in the current system) a level 8 qualification.

When you ask me does having a degree in philosophy make someone a better guard. That depends what you mean by better guard. Does it make them better at bundling a drunken scumb** into the back of a car at 3am in the morning. Probably not.
Does it mean they have a better chance of making the right decision regarding the amount of force needed to subdue someone, without going overboard... I would say probably (on the balance of probabilities anyway)

But most importantly does it mean they are more likely to be the kind of person who if promoted to the upper echelons of the force in 15/20 years will be suitable for taking responsibility for such an organisation. Yes, for the most part, in my opinion, it does.

So in my view the gardas have only two options.
~Recruit the people they need in the ordinary way at age 22/23/24 and pay them/promote them in such a way that its worth their while taking the job. OR
~ Pay through the nose for proven people from other large organisations who are 40/45 and propel them straight into the top jobs in the Force, as happens with many companies. CEO's for example are regularly recruited from outside a company. It is recognised that just because someone has put in 20 yrs with the company doesnt mean they are the best the person for the job.

pookie pixie

Padser...I havnt even read your ranting but shouldnt you be studying for IP or Land Or Rolands baby eating paper right now?My friend Sarahs sitting her law degree as we speak in UCC and also in her first year of the gardi.Everyone starts on equal pay but its a common fact that any sort of law degree will help you move up the ranks faster,its only logical.The system needs an overhaul in that theres no legal training givin in the force so when the gardi go to give an account of an inncodent that happend 2 years ago they cant remember and dont know how the court system works so its a bit of a joke in that respect.I dont even know what the whole convo is about,but sure thought I'd stick my ore in regardless...

padser

pookie pixie wrote:

Padser...I havnt even read your ranting but shouldnt you be studying for IP or Land Or Rolands baby eating paper right now?My friend Sarahs sitting her law degree as we speak in UCC and also in her first year of the gardi.Everyone starts on equal pay but its a common fact that any sort of law degree will help you move up the ranks faster,its only logical.The system needs an overhaul in that theres no legal training givin in the force so when the gardi go to give an account of an inncodent that happend 2 years ago they cant remember and dont know how the court system works so its a bit of a joke in that respect.I dont even know what the whole convo is about,but sure thought I'd stick my ore in regardless...

Ah pookie pixie.....we meet again. My arch nemisis....

Anyway iv learnt my lesson in the past so ill not argue with you this time!!

I think the discussion was pretty much over anyway....not sure if its cos I won by virtue of my brilliant arguements.....or just beat everyone down with sheer stubborness.......either works for me anyway.

Crash

Actually, Karlitosway - just something i've wondered - is there anything in place regarding placement within the gardaí in relation to previous degree's/diploma's/masters on application?

for instance i know DCU has a masters in computer forensics relating to various issues in relation to security etc. and branches out in a few different ways.

not dealing specifically with this masters, but in general, if someone has a relevant previous degree in an area that may be considered useful, is any consideration made in relation to placement after etc. other than considerations from within the course, or how is it done?

Eru

pookie pixie wrote:

Padser...I havnt even read your ranting but shouldnt you be studying for IP or Land Or Rolands baby eating paper right now?My friend Sarahs sitting her law degree as we speak in UCC and also in her first year of the gardi.Everyone starts on equal pay but its a common fact that any sort of law degree will help you move up the ranks faster,its only logical.The system needs an overhaul in that theres no legal training givin in the force so when the gardi go to give an account of an inncodent that happend 2 years ago they cant remember and dont know how the court system works so its a bit of a joke in that respect.I dont even know what the whole convo is about,but sure thought I'd stick my ore in regardless...

What a load of ****e! I need say no more.

Eru

&#231 wrote: »

Actually, Karlitosway - just something i've wondered - is there anything in place regarding placement within the gardaí in relation to previous degree's/diploma's/masters on application?

for instance i know DCU has a masters in computer forensics relating to various issues in relation to security etc. and branches out in a few different ways.

not dealing specifically with this masters, but in general, if someone has a relevant previous degree in an area that may be considered useful, is any consideration made in relation to placement after etc. other than considerations from within the course, or how is it done?

It would depend on the degree and the department you wanted.

civdef

On the whole, I wouldn't rush to change too much about the GS, it has a very good clear-up rate, and by and large has high levels of public approval when compared to police in most if not all countries.

One thing I've noticed myself, and heard many comments on is how some Gardai appear in public. It's less of a problem in cities, but down the country in quiet areas, you see Gardai that look plain slovenly. It reflects poorly on the individual and the organisation. It also implies a lack of discipline, if the regulations on uniform and appearance are being ignored, what else is? This is mainly an issue for supervision, if sergeants and inspectors let standards slip, some people will always take advantage.

On the reserve, my own opinion is that it mightn't be a bad thing at all, if given a chance - and once the right people are recruited (I'm not convinced at all that the current proposals are the right way to go about it). The perception of "opening up" the force a bit wouldn't be a bad one at all.

Otherwise, resources are always an issue, so the current indications of improved equipment etc coming on stream are welcome.

An awful lot of the problems people have with policing relate to the criminal juctice system as a whole, and like in so many other countries, the sytem continually lets officers on the ground and the general public down. Repeat offenders are being allowed to go out and re-offend over and over, which is the real crisis.

Rather than reinventing the wheel with the Gardai, the time and effort would be much better spent ensuring that when the Gardai secure a conviction against someone, the sentence is commensurate with the crimes, and that it is served in full.

Victor

A few things I would do:

1. Improve education on where the public is now.

I get the impression that few rank and file gardai outside specific units have any reasonable understanding of a computer. In the case of one sergeant this extended to how to turn off the computer and how to bring a big enough evidence bag.

A shift is needed in the composition and outlook of the force regarding immigration. All too often the first reaction from some gardai when meeting a non-Irish person is "Passport, please!"

2. Reconsider the force's existance as a unitary force, dealing with everything from state security to parking tickets. Many other countries have three or more levels of policing dealing with (a) local issues (b) general crime (c) paramilitary / state security.

3. Reinforce the ombudsman.

4. Expand the rank structure.

At the moment, promotion would appear to be difficult. While of a similar size to the defence forces, there are much fewer ranks. Psychologicly, offering people a modest promotion might help retention rates and morale.

Esel

Victor wrote:

4. Expand the rank structure.

At the moment, promotion would appear to be difficult. While of a similar size to the defence forces, there are much fewer ranks. Psychologicly, offering people a modest promotion might help retention rates and morale.

Yeah, I'd vote for a new rank of corporal. It would suit some of the Napoleons and little Hitlers down to the ground!

[ => Joke, BTW ]