If only it could talk.......a souvenir of 1798

SpitfireIV

Just thought I'd show off my lastest posession and let any one interested have a peak at it. Its a socket type bayonet from a Brown Bess musket and is fitted with the extremely rare wooden handle which enabled it to be used as a hand knife/sword. Its not in the best of condition, it has a lot of surface pitting and is discoloured, but apart from that its in pretty good shape for something thats in or around 200 year old.





I bought it from a antique dealer in the North and it has a rather interesting story behind it, perhaps connected with the Ulster rebellion and that of Ballinahinch.

The story goes that it was given to a worker from the Montalto estate when the estate was being sold off, (I was told too that the same man was also given an amount of old guns which were dumped in a lake as there was no proper permits for them) it was kept by him as he was told it was from the battle of Ballinahinch and had been used by the militia that was raised in that area. It had lain forgot about in an old shed for many years (hence the pitting), it was eventually given to a land owner, who lands bordered the old estate (the land owner was the seller brother in law) and he in turn sold it on to the seller, then I bought it.......complicated .

Ballinahinch is part of the lands owned by the then Lord Moira, and it was 'oh his lands' you could say that one of the bloodiest battles of the Ulster campaign was fought. A battle mainly fought by Presbyterians agains the crown. Perhaps the piece is a battlefield pickup, maybe it was used, who knows what side it was used by...if only it could talk.

CroppyBoy1798

Degsy

It would most likely say "please remove this wooden,non-contemporary handle from me!".Those bayonets never had wooden handles and if it was the same age as the blade(which was kept in a shed),woodworm and general rottenness would have destroyed it.

SpitfireIV

Degsy wrote:

It would most likely say "please remove this wooden,non-contemporary handle from me!".Those bayonets never had wooden handles and if it was the same age as the blade(which was kept in a shed),woodworm and general rottenness would have destroyed it.

.....why would it say that? I see nothing wrong with the handle, its oak, therefore tough and hardwearing (as oak is) and just because a piece of timber is old doesnt mean it should have woodworm. It was locked into the bayonet when I got it and the shaft that goes into the bayonet itself shows forms of old use and age damage, as well as an old screw hole that lines up with the slot in the bayonet. Sure enough if the shed were damp and wet the bayonet would be rusted away and the handle severly deteriorated, but it may have been a dry shed, the metal is discolored and pitted, but no serious rust.

It cant be disproven that Brown Bess bayonets were not issued with wooden handles be they experimental or a private piece by a soldier, so as to make it into a fighting knife, makes sense to me. But maybe it was an addition by whomever obtained it, so as to make it into a combat weapon and use it for the fight. No one can ever say for sure....

CroppyBoy1798

FranknFurter

Degsy wrote:

It would most likely say "please remove this wooden,non-contemporary handle from me!".Those bayonets never had wooden handles and if it was the same age as the blade(which was kept in a shed),woodworm and general rottenness would have destroyed it.

Actually, some did have wooden handles. I have see quite a few (although they are the exception rather than the rule, probably changed by their original owner for comfort and ease of use, some are just segments of chair / table legs, some are a lot more).

Trying to say whether or not it should have woodworm or rotted away is pointless because it is totally dependent on an enviroment you have never seen, impossible judgement to make imho.

magpie

While its definitely of the right era, the provenance is a little hard to prove. The fact that the guy who sold it to you said it was used in 1798 doesn't count for much.

The wooden handle looks to me like it was fitted later to allow it to be used as an agricultural instrument, which is all very biblical - you shall turn your swords to ploughshares....

Degsy

Thats what i was saying,it was probably used as a scythe of some description but i'm pretty sure the handle is a later addition,in pattern it looks victorian.

Actually when you think of it,the whole point of a bayonet(no pun intended) is to attack your opponent at a distance greater than that afforded by a simple stabbing weapon.If you were going to attach a handle to a bayonet to use as a weapon,one would expect it to be considerable longer than the handle on yours.

shinners007

oh be sure to listen to degsey not he belives his a no it all:p

SpitfireIV

magpie wrote:

While its definitely of the right era, the provenance is a little hard to prove. The fact that the guy who sold it to you said it was used in 1798 doesn't count for much.

The wooden handle looks to me like it was fitted later to allow it to be used as an agricultural instrument, which is all very biblical - you shall turn your swords to ploughshares....

I suppose its not enought to say the guy sounded genuine and had a pretty good story.........but he did sound genuine .

It is of the right era, yes, the Bess was used between the 1740's and 1830's, so even if it werent from 1798 it wouldnt be too far off the mark and exactly the same to what would have been used.

I'm curious though as to why it would be used as an agricultural instrument, never would have guessed that. I'm in contact with a few bayonet buffs on the matter, they say that althought they have seen handles fitted to Brown Bess Bayonets, the practie was carried out more so on French and Belgium pieces.

SpitfireIV

Jesus guys, I posted the reply and then I seen your replys Degsy and Shinners, I thought I had posted on the record playing slagging match by mistake! haha

Degsy

Nah dude,shinners is stalking me!

shinners007

u wish.....

any how aint spoiling this thread.

apologies for going off topic croppy

SpitfireIV

Jeez guys, you're little domestic is spilling into other topics now...great.....just great :rolleyes: ........:D

Degsy

Sorry,shinners is gagging for it..i've had to change my phone number and everything.;)

SpitfireIV

Ok, I'm really bringing this topic back from the dead (hopefully I wont put the spark off the Desgy/Shinners affair again )

But look what I found while looking on E-Bay....





Must mean that the handles were manufactured and not made privately as both the handle in the above pics and the handle in mine are exactly alike. The only difference being that the bayonet pictured above is a later model Bess bayonet, mine is a 2nd pattern, circa 1770.

Anyhoo.....just thought I'd share that, I'm sure it made yer day

Degsy

CroppyBoy1798 wrote:

Ok, I'm really bringing this topic back from the dead (hopefully I wont put the spark off the Desgy/Shinners affair again )

But look what I found while looking on E-Bay....





Must mean that the handles were manufactured and not made privately as both the handle in the above pics and the handle in mine are exactly alike. The only difference being that the bayonet pictured above is a later model Bess bayonet, mine is a 2nd pattern, circa 1770.

Anyhoo.....just thought I'd share that, I'm sure it made yer day

Bah!You win this one croppy!!!;)

SpitfireIV

Degsy wrote:

Bah!You win this one croppy!!!;)

MOOHAHAHAHA....:D