Road deaths/foreigners

galah

Not sure if this is the right forum - if not, please move...

Saw an article in the Galway Advertiser today, about Polish drivers and their views on road deaths. Now they try to say that a lot of young people come from Poland, and the high rate of accidents occurs due to the fact that they don't know how to drive on the left hand side, and are not aware of the rules of the road (although these are available in Polish...).

I think that is a bit of a cheap excuse (although I don't know what the cause for all these road deaths could be...), as somehow you don't hear much about a lot of, say French deaths, or German deaths on Irish roads, while these groups would have the same problem (I took my left-hand drive over when I was 21, and I never had an accident, neither have my friends from abroad). I wonder why it's hit the Eastern Europeans so bad - and I would be really interested in an explanation (not a "feckin foreigners" debate please!)

Any opinions?

Is there a statistic that actually breaks up the deaths/accidents on the road into foreigner groups?

New_Departure06

I think that this is a very difficult issue to bring up because of PCness. But I will try to answer.

I think that part of the problem is that there is no legal mechanism for putting penalty points on foreign driving licenses. Also, it is difficult to keep track of the extent to which Eastern European cars may be insured or taxed, with such a rapidly growing Eastern European population. We need EU-wide rules on penalty points.

NavanJunction1

About 6 weeks ago a Lithuanian reg car overtook my car on the inside on the hard-shoulder just after the speed-camera at Dalgan on the way into Navan.

I was doing 100kph, he must have been doing 120kph+. The hard shoulder he used was not in great condition, and not very wide.

The daft thing about it was that there were about 20 cars in front of me - no way was he going to pass the column out.

Like most things, the fact that non-reg Irish cars are untouchable, and that penalty points don't apply means there is not much of a worry there..

This wasn't just speeding - this was nuts

kippy

As far as I am aware I dont think the Gardai record the nationalities of those involved in Accidents or fatal crashes so statistics arent easily gotten although I believe that this is due to change. This was mentioned a few weeks back by the Justice minister but I believe another TD managed to collate figures based on a few other reports/details.
I would speculate that the reason why there are so many eastern Europeans involved is that there are far more Eastern European people in the country than there are French, German etc.
Also as already mentioned getting points applied of penalties applied to a licence issued in a different country makes policing these drivers tough.
In all fairness though we must look at the issue as a whole and realise there are a hell of a lot of dangerous drivers on the roads-Irish or otherwise.
Kippy

Victor

galah wrote:

Saw an article in the Galway Advertiser today, about Polish drivers and their views on road deaths. Now they try to say that a lot of young people come from Poland, and the high rate of accidents occurs due to the fact that they don't know how to drive on the left hand side, and are not aware of the rules of the road (although these are available in Polish...).

The left hand side thing is probably bull, more likely they don't know how to drive on the left while drunk. The Rules of the Road were last revised in English in the mid 1990s. The foreign language versions are very brief.

I think that is a bit of a cheap excuse (although I don't know what the cause for all these road deaths could be...), as somehow you don't hear much about a lot of, say French deaths, or German deaths on Irish roads, while these groups would have the same problem (I took my left-hand drive over when I was 21, and I never had an accident, neither have my friends from abroad). I wonder why it's hit the Eastern Europeans so bad - and I would be really interested in an explanation (not a "feckin foreigners" debate please!)

I think the profile of immigrant between EU15 and EU15+10 countries is different. The +10 group has a much higher level of construction workers (more like to have a vehicle), binge drinking is a problem and I suspect the mode age is lower.

Is there a statistic that actually breaks up the deaths/accidents on the road into foreigner groups?

Not in real time. The most recent figures are for 2004.

Table 35 here: http://www.nra.ie/PublicationsResources/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadSafety/file,1948,en.pdf

galah

but tax, insurance and points still don't make people lose their lives in traffic!

Cause Germans or any other nation wouldn't get points either, and their insurance/tax/NCT situation could be just as dodgy...

Or do you think that makes people more reckless? (then again, why don't we hear about Spanish people involved ina accidents?)

And just because I can't get points does not mean I won't get fined (and if I ever choose to exchange my license, I WILL get the Irish points...), and therefore I won't drive recklessly or not carefully...(well, it's easier cause I now have an Irish reg, and they will find me...)

I just don't get it...(it could be any other nation, this is not about Poles, just for the record..I rwally just wonder how they can take it as an excuse or explanation when some many other people are in the same situation....)

FillSpectre

THere has to be a cultural aspect to it. You can see some nationalities have brought their own cars and others aren't really driving.

tbh

Matt Cooper wrote an interesting piece about this last weekend, think it was the Sunday Times. He said that because of the way the rules are (i.e. Foreign cars don't have to register here till six months after they arrive, no penalty points on foreign licenses etc) it essentially amounts to a two-tier system which discriminates against Irish drivers. I think he has a point, and I don't think its anti-pc to say this - I'm sure the majority of foreign drivers would prefer to be 'legal' from an irish point of view. It just pisses me off that if I went to Eastern Europe and bought a better car than I could afford to buy here, I'd be hit for VRT etc - but thats another thread.

I don't really have a problem with Foreign drivers per se, but I would like to see a special test for people driving left-hand drive cars on Irish roads - it can't be safe. If you do a test in an automatic, you have an endorsement on your license, so I think there should be something similar for LHD cars. How can you overtake safely when you can't even see whats past the car in front?

NavanJunction1

I heard a funny response from the editor of Polska Gazetta on telly last week to the whole debate - he said the level of coverage on Polish Insurance IS lower than the levels covered in Irish policies, but that it is unreasonable to expect Poles to have Irish levels of insurance..

Apparently Polish car insurance offers cover up to a few hundred thousand Euros, but Irish insurance is up to É30m or something

That's what I took from the RTÉ interview - seemed a bit daft.

He actually sounded like a quasi-lobbyist to keep the status quo - I'll see if I can find the news item in the RTÉ archive tonight

I'm open to correction on the specifics..

galah

tbh wrote:

Matt Cooper wrote an interesting piece about this last weekend, think it was the Sunday Times. He said that because of the way the rules are (i.e. Foreign cars don't have to register here till six months after they arrive, no penalty points on foreign licenses etc) it essentially amounts to a two-tier system which discriminates against Irish drivers. I think he has a point, and I don't think its anti-pc to say this - I'm sure the majority of foreign drivers would prefer to be 'legal' from an irish point of view. It just pisses me off that if I went to Eastern Europe and bought a better car than I could afford to buy here, I'd be hit for VRT etc - but thats another thread.

I don't really have a problem with Foreign drivers per se, but I would like to see a special test for people driving right-hand drive cars on Irish roads - it can't be safe. If you do a test in an automatic, you have an endorsement on your license, so I think there should be something similar for RHD cars. How can you overtake safely when you can't even see whats past the car in front?

You mean left-hand cars, right? (otherwise there'll be an awful lot of testing...;-)) I don't think it's too much of a problem to have the steering wheel on the other side - if you adapt your driving style, and be more careful...

As I said, foreigners can be entirely legal if they exchange their license - but, tbh, I would not want to - because I would lose a few "perks" like being allowed to drive trucks up to 7.5 tonnes and things like that if I change my license now, and if I want to change the license back at a later stage (if I move back home or so, since they changed the license regulations back home...). I'm sure the points system will be "Europeanized" at some point, and then it should be fair again...And as I aslo said - foreigner will still be hit by the fines, and may be prohibited from driving if it's a serious offence, it's not like we have a free ticket to do what we want...(not more than any other Irish person, what with the next-to-zero enforcement of rules by the guards...)

tbh

galah wrote:

You mean left-hand cars, right? (otherwise there'll be an awful lot of testing...;-))

God Damn it. My g/f told me to get left and right tattooed on my hands, but I'd probably do it on the wrong hands

yeah, meant left-hand, what a fkwit thanks galah

Fool 5000

Committee chairman calls for compulsory tests for foreign nationals

The chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport has asked the new Road Safety Authority (RSA) to think about introducing mandatory testing for foreign nationals driving in Ireland.

Fianna Fail TD John Ellis highlighted the problems faced by people driving on the right-hand side coupled with road signage problems.
Mr Ellis stated that any testing system could be provided by the private sector. The training, he maintained, could help alert people driving on the right-hand side of the road to the different problems they faced when driving on the left.

Committee member Olivia Mitchell highlighted that there were many provisional drivers who had never faced a test. In light of this, she said that it "ill behoves us" to ask foreign nationals to undertake extra training.
There was also a submission from the Driving Instructors Registrar of Ireland. This asked for its standards to be recognised under any changes to the system for instructor registration planned by the RSA.

Des Cummins, chief executive of the register, said that it worked on a voluntary basis. This was because there was no compulsory registration system in the State for driving instructors.

A Dub in Glasgo

Article in the current edition of The Village magazine about road deaths. It states that 20 non-nationals have been killed out of the total at the time of 125. It also noted that 50% of the non-nationals killed involved 2 multiple fatality accidents.

galah

Fool 5000 wrote:

Committee chairman calls for compulsory tests for foreign nationals

The chairman of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport has asked the new Road Safety Authority (RSA) to think about introducing mandatory testing for foreign nationals driving in Ireland.

Fianna Fail TD John Ellis highlighted the problems faced by people driving on the right-hand side coupled with road signage problems.
Mr Ellis stated that any testing system could be provided by the private sector. The training, he maintained, could help alert people driving on the right-hand side of the road to the different problems they faced when driving on the left.

.

This is a joke, right?

Alun

galah wrote:

This is a joke, right?

Yet another example of not thinking things through. For a start the EU wouldn't let us ... free movement and all that. Then there's the question of how long do you have to be here before you take such a "test" ... are we going to test all the holidaymakers getting off the ferries and if they fail, send them back home? And even if we did just do it, wait for the outcry when the rest of the EU starts demanding the same from Irish drivers when they're visiting their countries!! Never heard such a load of ill thought out bollox in my life.

Alun

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Article in the current edition of The Village magazine about road deaths. It states that 20 non-nationals have been killed out of the total at the time of 125. It also noted that 50% of the non-nationals killed involved 2 multiple fatality accidents.

I'd like to see figures for the number of incidents rather than the number of fatalaties. I seem to remember that in a couple of instances there were 4 people in the cars involved which would skew the stats somewhat.

Garibaldi

As an example, I worked in Poland for a few weeks last year, and the way they drive here is a lot more restrained than the way they drive there. If you sit, enjoying a pint, outside a bar, it's like watching a 3D version of The Fast and The Furious or somesuch. From the latest Mitsubishi Evo VIII to the ****tiest little Lada heap you ever saw, they're all absolutely crazy drivers. Amusing as it might be, in this scenario, to think that they might all be drunk, that just can't be the case. So, methinks it's just the way they drive. Once they get behind the wheel, they're complete lunatics. They also have these things called Kamikaze Bike Runs, which involve bikes racing through Warsaw city centre at 200+ kmh, not stopping for anything, and those that survive get a pint, or something. :eek: If that's not indicative of a higher than average level of insanity, I don't know what is.
Bottom line is, they're already maniacs behind the wheel, so an almost complete absence of consequences (barring death/serious injury) isn't going to make them think twice about changing their behaviour once they get here.