Caught between a maniac and a loser

Hectorjelly

Ok to understand this hand you have to understand the table. There is one player, the maniac, who is playing every hand. He is one of the worst players ive ever come across. He bets and raises small on every street, constantly min raising people. If he actually bet more than 1/20 of the pot at any stage he would be a nightmare to play against, but as it is none of his bets are working. This is a hand we played a while previously. He limps utg, 1 other limper. I make it 45 with AA, he calls. The flop is K68. He bets 12. I make it 550 all in. He calls, He has KJ. Turn is a king. There is about 5k at the table, as he keeps winning massive pots from people and then redisributing the money. I have lost 4 1K+ pots to him, each time all the money going in when I have 2 pair to his 1 pair, or a set to his pair and gutshott etc.

Thats the maniac, the loser is just a general run of the mill bad player. He would of folded the KJ above, but he will never fold JJ on a ten high board.

So im down about 1k at this stage, and the maniacs stack is going down fast, so im taking every opportunity to get into a pot with this guy before he loses all his money. I have 800, maniac has 1.5k and the loser has about 600. I get K4s on the button, everyone limps and I make it 40 more. Only the maniac and the loser call. The flop is KQ2.r Checked to me and I bet 100. The maniac makes it 200. I am about to push (he does this every hand and doesnt even mean he has a pair) but then I notice the loser cold calling. What do I do?

Imposter

What's losers impression of you going to be? Have you been playing a lot of pots lately? Raising a lot preflop? etc..

My gut says to push here and hope loser has Qx or he folds a weak Kx but it depends on what hands you've seen from loser.

Hectorjelly

Imposter wrote:

What's losers impression of you going to be? Have you been playing a lot of pots lately? Raising a lot preflop? etc..

My gut says to push here and hope loser has Qx or he folds a weak Kx but it depends on what hands you've seen from loser.

I dont think the loser has the mental capacity to think about what I hold to any great extent, he would know that I cant be bluffing here but im not sure he could fold a big king, even KT or K9.

I have been raising a good bit, but have always showndown strong, if often losing hands.

Bandana boy

Fold
find a better spot i think more than 66% of the time your behind to a hand that will not fold

AmarilloFats

Bandana boy wrote:

Fold
find a better spot i think more than 66% of the time your behind to a hand that will not fold

What is this "better spot" you're waiting for. Is this a profitable situation or not?
Cold calls like Ave losers are usually draws or monters(set).
BUt from what you've said his range is alot wider.

I fold here.

If loser had not cold called, is maniac bad enough to call a push with a worse hand than yours??

Bandana boy

A better spot would be a hand better than TP no kicker
i think by the sounds of it you are going to get 3 way action
A draw and either kx or qx from loser
i think enough times this is Kx which has to have you in trouble
but also by the sounds of it you will get 3 way action with with top 2 or TPTK/GK which is Imho a better spot

Hectorjelly

AmarilloFats wrote:

If loser had not cold called, is maniac bad enough to call a push with a worse hand than yours??

Definitely - He will call with any pair and any draw

Hectorjelly

There should be no such phrase as "a better spot", especially under these circumstances. If I lose this hand I can rebuy, so its either worth playing on its own merits or not. Obviously it would be better if I had a stronger hand, but this guy is going to lose his money VERY quickly.

bubbleking

id put the losser on a straight draw or holding Qx and hes hoping to hit on the turn. id push here chances are your ahead of the maniac and your read on the losser should mean he will fold unless he has a king with a high kicker.

cardshark202

Playing shít hands in a desperate attempt to get a maniacs money is a bad idea. I'm sure you know that yourself. There will be other maniacs and losers, better times to try take him on.

Hectorjelly

cardshark202 wrote:

Playing shít hands in a desperate attempt to get a maniacs money is a bad idea. I'm sure you know that yourself. There will be other maniacs and losers, better times to try take him on.

Wow I disagree completely with this. First of all

Kxs is not a **** hand under the right circumstances. I just check my stats and kxs (where x is lower then T) is a more profitable hand for me than small pp.
In this hand I have position and managed to almost isolate someone who will go to the felt with ANY pair. Also we are 150bbs deep.

Yes there will be other losers, but maniacs like this guy are few and far between.

Id actually go so far as to say preflop should be standard, in these circumstances.

cardshark202

Surely the fact that Kxs is more profitable for you than small PPs is more to do with your playing style than anything else. I can understand going to wire with such a hand against this maniac if there was no-one else involved in the pot but the fact is that you are unlikely to to isolate him given the presence of a limping loser. Limping losers rarely fold preflop once they've put money in the pot in my experience. K4s is just not a very good hand to try take on these two players.

mewso

O.k. so you raise to isolate presumably to get all his money if you hit something. It's going to plan except for one spanner who may not be good enough to worry about you so pushing is tempting. Then again you'll get Q3 next hand which is another monster in your game plan so why not fold.

cardshark202

Hectorjelly wrote:

Id actually go so far as to say preflop should be standard, in these circumstances.

Wow i almost missed this. No way can this be standard preflop. No way.

Hectorjelly

cardshark202 wrote:

Wow i almost missed this. No way can this be standard preflop. No way.

why not? I assume you would limp there? And if your limping on the button then you may as well be raising, I want to get rid of all the other players who have better kings than me. If the other players were decent they would realise what I was doing but they arent, so thats not really a concern.

Hectorjelly

musician wrote:

Then again you'll get Q3 next hand which is another monster in your game plan so why not fold.

Not quite Q3 but almost

The Lady Vanishes 8161260-36693 Holdem No Limit $3/$6
[Apr 27 03:27:07] : Hand Start.
[Apr 27 03:27:07] : Seat 1 : Slapper360 has $648
[Apr 27 03:27:07] : Seat 2 : breandan18 has $1,313.50
[Apr 27 03:27:07] : Seat 3 : que2006 has $273.25
[Apr 27 03:27:07] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has $498
[Apr 27 03:27:07] : Seat 5 : josh666 has $104.50
[Apr 27 03:27:07] : Seat 6 : emilyb222 has $378
[Apr 27 03:27:07] : Hectorjelly is the dealer.
[Apr 27 03:27:07] : josh666 posted small blind.
[Apr 27 03:27:08] : emilyb222 posted big blind.
[Apr 27 03:27:08] : Game [36693] started with 6 players.
[Apr 27 03:27:08] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Apr 27 03:27:08] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has 8c 3c
[Apr 27 03:26:55] : Slapper360 has 10 seconds to respond.
[Apr 27 03:26:59] : Slapper360 folded.
[Apr 27 03:27:01] : breandan18 called $6
[Apr 27 03:27:02] : que2006 folded.
[Apr 27 03:27:06] : Hectorjelly called $6
[Apr 27 03:27:06] : josh666 called $3
[Apr 27 03:27:08] : emilyb222 checked.
[Apr 27 03:27:09] : Dealing flop.
[Apr 27 03:27:09] : Board cards [8h 3h 3d]
[Apr 27 03:27:12] : josh666 checked.
[Apr 27 03:27:17] : emilyb222 checked.
[Apr 27 03:27:55] : breandan18 bet $12
[Apr 27 03:27:58] : Hectorjelly called $12
[Apr 27 03:28:00] : josh666 folded.
[Apr 27 03:28:14] : emilyb222 has 10 seconds to respond.
[Apr 27 03:28:15] : emilyb222 folded.
[Apr 27 03:28:15] : Dealing turn.
[Apr 27 03:28:15] : Board cards [8h 3h 3d Qh]
[Apr 27 03:28:19] : breandan18 bet $24
[Apr 27 03:27:55] : Hectorjelly called $24 and raised $48
[Apr 27 03:27:56] : breandan18 called $48
[Apr 27 03:27:56] : Dealing river.
[Apr 27 03:27:56] : Board cards [8h 3h 3d Qh 4c]
[Apr 27 03:27:58] : breandan18 checked.
[Apr 27 03:28:04] : Hectorjelly bet $408 and is All-in
[Apr 27 03:28:04] : breandan18 called $408
[Apr 27 03:28:06] : Showdown!
[Apr 27 03:28:06] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has 8c 3c
[Apr 27 03:28:08] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has 8c 3c
[Apr 27 03:28:08] : Hectorjelly has Full House : 3s full of 8s
[Apr 27 03:28:08] : Hectorjelly wins $1,005 with Full House : 3s full of 8s
[Apr 27 03:28:17] : Hand is over.

cardshark202

Hectorjelly wrote:

why not? I assume you would limp there? And if your limping on the button then you may as well be raising, I want to get rid of all the other players who have better kings than me. If the other players were decent they would realise what I was doing but they arent, so thats not really a concern.

Actually come to think of it I probably am raising. I hate limping my button. Actually the more that I think about it the more I think that so far the hand has played itself. have to go now but I'll post more thoughts later. You win this round HJ.....:rolleyes:

ianmc38

Hectorjelly wrote:

[Apr 27 03:28:04] : Hectorjelly bet $408 and is All-in
[Apr 27 03:28:04] : breandan18 called $408

LOL

Hectorjelly

Just to give you an idea of how bad this guy is...

The Lady Vanishes 8161260-36726 Holdem No Limit $3/$6
[Apr 27 03:58:03] : Hand Start.
[Apr 27 03:58:03] : Seat 1 : Slapper360 has $726.98
[Apr 27 03:58:03] : Seat 2 : breandan18 has $761
[Apr 27 03:58:03] : Seat 3 : que2006 has $483
[Apr 27 03:58:03] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has $952.50
[Apr 27 03:58:03] : Seat 5 : dingies2 has $80
[Apr 27 03:58:03] : Seat 6 : emilyb222 has $1,108
[Apr 27 03:58:03] : Hectorjelly is the dealer.
[Apr 27 03:58:03] : emilyb222 posted small blind.
[Apr 27 03:58:04] : Slapper360 posted big blind.
[Apr 27 03:58:04] : Game [36726] started with 5 players.
[Apr 27 03:58:04] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Apr 27 03:58:04] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has Jc Kd
[Apr 27 03:58:07] : breandan18 called $6
[Apr 27 03:58:20] : que2006 has 10 seconds to respond.
[Apr 27 03:58:20] : que2006 called $6
[Apr 27 03:58:22] : Hectorjelly called $6
[Apr 27 03:58:25] : emilyb222 called $3
[Apr 27 03:58:07] : Slapper360 checked.
[Apr 27 03:58:07] : Dealing flop.
[Apr 27 03:58:07] : Board cards [Jh 7c 3d]
[Apr 27 03:58:15] : emilyb222 checked.
[Apr 27 03:58:19] : Slapper360 checked.
[Apr 27 03:58:22] : breandan18 bet $12
[Apr 27 03:58:25] : que2006 folded.
[Apr 27 03:58:59] : Hectorjelly called $12 and raised $48
[Apr 27 03:59:05] : emilyb222 folded.
[Apr 27 03:59:15] : Slapper360 folded.
[Apr 27 03:59:17] : breandan18 called $48
[Apr 27 03:59:17] : Dealing turn.
[Apr 27 03:59:17] : Board cards [Jh 7c 3d 4h]
[Apr 27 03:59:20] : breandan18 checked.
[Apr 27 03:59:24] : Hectorjelly bet $100
[Apr 27 03:59:25] : breandan18 called $100 and raised $100
[Apr 27 03:58:59] : Hectorjelly called $100 and raised $686.50 and is All-in
[Apr 27 03:59:05] : breandan18 called $495 and is All-in
[Apr 27 03:59:06] : Showdown!
[Apr 27 03:59:06] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has Jc Kd
[Apr 27 03:59:08] : Seat 2 : breandan18 has 5h 3h
[Apr 27 03:59:08] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has Jc Kd
[Apr 27 03:59:13] : Board cards [Jh 7c 3d 4h 6c]
[Apr 27 03:59:13] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has Jc Kd
[Apr 27 03:59:13] : Hectorjelly has Pair: Jacks
[Apr 27 03:59:13] : Seat 2 : breandan18 has 5h 3h
[Apr 27 03:59:13] : breandan18 has Straight 76543
[Apr 27 03:59:13] : breandan18 wins $1,537 with Straight 76543
[Apr 27 03:59:23] : Hand is over.

sunzz

Lol the above made me giggle: D

Could be a disgruntled wife trying to lose her husbands bankroll in an attempt to get him off the net....my 2 cents on it any way.

Shortstack

I have played him before, he is brutal.

MrPillowTalk

I can understand not pushing in this spot but how anyone can advise folding is beyond me, you have to call 100 in position to see a turn card for a pot that will be 750 and there is a chance you may have the best hand and you act last. TJ may be a very possible hand for bad player surely he pushes with a set once maniac has raised?

I call mostly and see what happens on the turn, I push if I have a valid reason to believe bad player check calls his draws. I never fold here.

Hectorjelly

Yeah I thinking folding is out of the question, I called the 100. Turn was a 4 and I got all in vs the maniac. Id be interested in what people would think I should do if the turn is a blank, as I had no idea at the time.

Im not really worried about a set on this board, the hand that scares me is KQ, as the loser (or anyone) would never fold it and Im drawing dead to it.

I think pushing the flop might of been better than calling though, because in hindsight the guy in the middle is going to see both of us push our stacks in, and its going to be hard to call with KJ KT there, whereas if put the money in slowly he doesnt get a chance to fold. I dont know though!

[Apr 27 04:20:09] : Dealing turn.
[Apr 27 04:20:09] : Board cards [2s Kh Qd 4c]
[Apr 27 04:20:13] : breandan18 bet $48
[Apr 27 04:20:16] : que2006 called $48
[Apr 27 04:20:18] : Hectorjelly called $48 and raised $425.50 and is All-in
[Apr 27 04:20:23] : breandan18 called $347.50 and is All-in
[Apr 27 04:20:29] : que2006 folded.
[Apr 27 04:20:29] : Showdown!
[Apr 27 04:20:29] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has Kd 4d
[Apr 27 04:20:02] : Seat 2 : breandan18 has Ac Qc
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : Board cards [2s Kh Qd 4c Tc]
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has Kd 4d
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : TheEarth has Two Pair: Kings and 4s
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : Seat 2 : breandan18 has Ac Qc
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : breandan18 has Pair: Queens
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : TheEarth wins $1,553 with Two Pair: Kings and 4s
[Apr 27 04:20:17] : Hand is over.

ocallagh

Hectorjelly wrote:

Yeah I thinking folding is out of the question, I called the 100. Turn was a 4 and I got all in vs the maniac. Id be interested in what people would think I should do if the turn is a blank, as I had no idea at the time.

Im not really worried about a set on this board, the hand that scares me is KQ, as the loser (or anyone) would never fold it and Im drawing dead to it.

I think pushing the flop might of been better than calling though, because in hindsight the guy in the middle is going to see both of us push our stacks in, and its going to be hard to call with KJ KT there, whereas if put the money in slowly he doesnt get a chance to fold. I dont know though!

[Apr 27 04:20:09] : Dealing turn.
[Apr 27 04:20:09] : Board cards [2s Kh Qd 4c]
[Apr 27 04:20:13] : breandan18 bet $48
[Apr 27 04:20:16] : que2006 called $48
[Apr 27 04:20:18] : Hectorjelly called $48 and raised $425.50 and is All-in
[Apr 27 04:20:23] : breandan18 called $347.50 and is All-in
[Apr 27 04:20:29] : que2006 folded.
[Apr 27 04:20:29] : Showdown!
[Apr 27 04:20:29] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has Kd 4d
[Apr 27 04:20:02] : Seat 2 : breandan18 has Ac Qc
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : Board cards [2s Kh Qd 4c Tc]
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : Seat 4 : Hectorjelly has Kd 4d
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : Hctorjelly has Two Pair: Kings and 4s
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : Seat 2 : breandan18 has Ac Qc
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : breandan18 has Pair: Queens
[Apr 27 04:20:07] : Hctorjelly wins $1,553 with Two Pair: Kings and 4s
[Apr 27 04:20:17] : Hand is over.

You'd be a poor man if your editing skills were on a par with your poker skills!

Hectorjelly

well at least I didnt leave my screenname in it like I did a few weeks ago

ollyk1

[Apr 27 04:20:07] : TheEarth wins $1,553 with Two Pair: Kings and 4s
[Apr 27 04:20:17] : Hand is over.

Surely you did leave it in?

Or is this a very subtle double bluff??

Tricky hand to isolate this Brendan guy, pushing on the flop may be correct in this very special circumstance but its a seriously advanced play and in the long run how much +EV do you have with this move. Looks very marginal to me.

kincsem

83 ...... how many times have I said that's a massive hand? :rolleyes: