University education -- a right or a privilege?

Dave!

Ireland's one of the few countries I can think of that has 'free' university education. In America, Australia, and Britain for example, students are left crippled with loans to pay back after college. I personally think that it's one of the best aspects of this country, having free education. But I'm undecided as to whether it should be a right or a privilege... What do ye think? Should "Joe Taxpayer" have to pay for us lazy students to sit around and drink, then cram a few days before exams?

hmmm

MrJones

a privilege

ergonomics

It should be a right but without doubt it is a privilege. The Leaving Cert seperates the ones who are weak and lets the 'stronger' ones continue on with their education. There is no allowance made for someone with high natural intelligence but low exam skills i.e. panicking in exams and forgetting what they have learned.

jdc78

That's a tough one. I am sort of leaning towards everyone being entitled to an education but I guess the problem I would have is where do you draw the line to entitlement. It is certainly a privilage to have free university education and it's unfortunate that not everyone takes advantage of higher learning while they still can.

I think it sort of falls in the same area as driving - a right or a privilage. Too many people take it as their right and not a privilage however, with the responsibility linked to driving, as with studying, possibly it should be viewed as a privilage.

ergonomics

ergonomics wrote:

It should be a right but without doubt it is a privilege. The Leaving Cert seperates the ones who are weak and lets the 'stronger' ones continue on with their education. There is no allowance made for someone with high natural intelligence but low exam skills i.e. panicking in exams and forgetting what they have learned.

Is always panicking under pressure not a sign of weakness?

A relevant question is what should the privledge be based? Merit vs Ability to Pay vs Performance in exams which measure ability to rote-learn etc.

Absolam

Everyone should get an education.. but to be honest, we're privileged to live in an affluent country.. and that privilege extends us a good education.

Blowfish

I would debate whether or not 'Joe Taxpayer' pays for other peoples education. In general, if you come out of college/university with a degree, you will be more likely to end up earning more than if you had gone straight into the workplace. Consequentially you will be paying more in tax, thus repaying the government for the money they invested in your education.

simu

I think it's a good idea to make it accessible for anyone who is interested and has the ability. But it's not a right in the sense that everyone should get a go regardless of merit - it's possible to live a good life and earn a good wage without university level education tbh.

lostexpectation

its called third level, its doens't just happen in "universities"

I don't know I guess the cut off from right to privileged from secondary to third is because you have the ability to earn a living at that stage, (and possibly pay for your education over a longer period)

But there you go the gov constantly go on about wanting science grads or whatever so i guess it is (free or granted 3rd level ed) an opportunity which should be given, I guess this where equality might come in if your into this sort of thing, its free so those without rich parents go afford it and doens't leave people in crippiling debt.

Dave!

simu wrote:

I think it's a good idea to make it accessible for anyone who is interested and has the ability. But it's not a right in the sense that everyone should get a go regardless of merit - it's possible to live a good life and earn a good wage without university level education tbh.

It's possible to live a good life and earn a good wage without doing the Leaving cert too (see: trades)

simu

DaveMcG wrote:

It's possible to live a good life and earn a good wage without doing the Leaving cert too (see: trades)

I know. But not OT for this thread!

hullaballoo

I'd agree with simu for the most part.

'Free' university education is definitely the correct stance for the government to take, although I don't know to what extent I believe all third level education should be free. It's definitely a privilege to have free education at all levels. There must be a distinction between that and whether or not education should be 'privileged'.

It shouldn't be the case that only those who can afford huge fees are allowed to go to university, it should be open to all.

On your point about taxpayers paying for us to sit about and drink etc.: I don't believe they should, but that comes down to the structure of the actual education itself, which is an entirely different topic altogether.

gilroyb

It should be a right for those who wish to pursue a degree. However this discussion has focused on whether it should be free for all or not. This is a different thing. Why should the government pay for those who can pay for themselves? If a person decides to go to university and can support themselves, they should, with those who could not afford to support themselves being paid for out of taxpayers funds.

Dave!

gilroyb wrote:

It should be a right for those who wish to pursue a degree. However this discussion has focused on whether it should be free for all or not. This is a different thing. Why should the government pay for those who can pay for themselves? If a person decides to go to university and can support themselves, they should, with those who could not afford to support themselves being paid for out of taxpayers funds.

That's actually an interesting point. Perhaps only people who's family earns below a certain point should be paid for by the government.

lostexpectation

which brings you to mean testing... which is complex

What do ye think? Should "Joe Taxpayer" have to pay for us lazy students to sit around and drink, then cram a few days before exams?

er don't most degree holders still get better/higher paid jobs and thus pay more tax as you said, no matter how much they drink in college?

Dave!

Yer I made that point in another thread, but I've seen the argument before (some guy made a thread in one of the forums and went on a rant in that vein), so was just putting it in there.

Earthhorse

University education is a privilege.

I think there are huge misconceptions in society at large about what a University education is (i.e. necessary in order to get a decent job) and I think the huge drop out rates in first year are evidence of this.

Crucifix

It should be a right I guess. Some people may see students as drunken layabouts leeching off the taxpayer, but personally I work quite hard at my education.

Rogueish

A third level education should be a right for those that are willing to work hard and make a success out of the opportunity that they are given. In other words that they can contribute to their community and society as a whole as happy, balanced working individuals.

I love my job, I feel that I make a valuable contribution to my community. I could not do the job that I am doing if I did not go onto third level.

For those that have found their niche without going onto third level, I would hope that the opportunity was available for them if that was what they wanted. And would still be available to them if that is what they would like to do in the future.