Knife assault Clip. Some people might not want to view.

Baggio...

Vicious Knife assault. Really highlights the dangers of not being “switched on”. Worth Checking out if you are into RBSD, etc.

http://static.cnhi.zope.net/flashpromo/kokomotribune/flashpromo/video/trolleyattack.wmv

Found the clip on G.Thompson's site. Any thoughts?

breadmonkey

Question for everyone:

Had you been a passenger on that bus, would you have legged it off the bus or tried to help the victim?

I don't know if I'd have the balls to do the latter, though I think it's quite spineless to abandon some poor guy to a maniac with a knife. Then again, 2 victims aren't exactly better than one.

Thoughts?

EDIT: The clip isn't actually that bad. It's not a gore fest.

Pro. F

looks like the poor victim tried to walk away. just shows, being a bad judge of how dangerous the situation is adds to the danger.
did he make the attack stop by playing dead? sort of looks like that.

breadmonkey: i can't say for defenite but i'm pretty sure i would have jumped in in that situation; the reason i say that is cause it looks like an attack and not like the victim invited it.

i find the question of when to help/get involved can be hard to answer. mainly because most fights i've seen have involved two (or more) drunken lads generally causing a trouble. so that all the people in the fights were to blame for the fights. one idea i've had for a long time, for drunken one-guy-is-as-bad-as-the-other fights, is just to say ''he's had enough'', or something simillar, if someone's getting a kicking. in the hope that the one giving the kicking will be suitably satisfied that he's won. wishfull thinking??
but if you're satisfied that there is a victim in the fight then do you really have a choice? to me if i see that there is clearly a victim i can't justify not doing something.

Baggio...

That's a good point to bring up B.M.

My answer is that, I'd "hope" to attack the scum bag, and Hopefully I'd have the stones to do it at the time. But you never know until your in a situation like that. If I felt that I could not make a difference, i.e. I was outnumbered. I'd run to get help.

yomchi

Funny this should come up right now, I was flicking through an Irish Fighter from last year and came across a whole page dedicated to a certain 'grandmaster' and still shots of defence against a knife attack. I was furious after reading through it, it was complete BULL. I was tempted there and then to pick up the phone to the editor and ask him to stop printing material that will get people disembowled. :mad:

Had to let off steam

mcguiver

Unfortunately I see this time and time again, lots of people there, and no one helps.

Forget all the theory techniques ..put as much material between you and the knife...your coat, briefcase, bag etc. once you get the knife movement stopped, then the holds and restraints come into play

Baggio...

Nothing wrong will letting off a bit of steam now and then:) .

It's pretty darn hard to defend against that type of assault, especially when there is some complete git who will just stick it in your back. Can't believe someone could actually do that to another human being, over a seat on a bus no less. Just makes no sense at all .

B.

Michael O Leary

Hi Baggio,

I know where you are coming from but I don't think it was really over a seat on a bus but moreso other stuff that happened to him in his 45 years on this planet.

People like that scare me and have a natural advantage during a fight in that they like hurting people. I see my martial arts training just balancing out that advantage.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Musashi

Having had words and been followed to the front of the buss, why in hell would you turn your back to the guy? Apologise, make every effort to get away, but don't turn away from an angry guy within arms reach of you!

Looks like one of the first couple swipes did the damage, then the victim shot for the takedown and they rolled about fro a while. Hearing that the attacker had already done time I'm just surprised he didn't follow up on the ground pumping the knife into his victim. Any clips I've seen of prison "shankings" were either sneak up and stab furiously attacks or two guys, one to restarin and one to stab. Both would be more assasination attempts than "knife-fights" or Duels.

I doubt the victim in this case could have deployed a weapon even if he'd had one. This is where the "Fence" type routine is good, along with verbal commands to the aggressor to step away, or **** Off. If he keeps coming you know there's going to be trouble but you've a little more room and time to work with. Still a bad deal in an enclosed area with no help coming from the other passengers/witnesses.

Baggio...

Hi Michael,

Your absolutely spot on there. The guy was insane to begin with, and just used that as an excuse. He would have probably tried it on with someone else. I guess the poor geezer on the bus was there first. At least they got the beyatch in the end.

I'm with you on the point that these guys are really scary. And as you said that the training will hopefully balance it out. Well, here's hoping.

Cheers,

Bagg.

Baggio...

Lo All,

As Musashi stated, after an altercation of that nature, the guy should have not turned his back on the psycho. Again situational control (deescalation posture) and awareness would be paramount. As least if you were facing the guy you might have a chance to clock him one while he reaching into his pocket, and then escape. Also, if the psycho thought you were on to him he might try and find an easier victim, but you never know with people like that.

Cheers,

B.

Redrocket

switched on??? at least the victim had a warning in this case, its how he handled it that got him stabbed, turning his back was obviosly the wrong thing to do, but how was he supposed to know mr physcho was willing to stab over a seat. at least he had a warning and had a chance to see that there was a potential situation about to occur when mr physcho got up to follow him.

Baggio...

Even though the guy had an “unmissable” warning he was not switched on in the first place. As we have pointed out, he felt there was no immediate threat (indicated by turning his back to the lunatic). He was in the classic "victim state" to coin an FBI term. He had no idea that the attack was immanent. If that happened to someone who was “switched on”, and aware they would have seen a potential threat develop, and taken no chances. And at least they would have been more ready for a potential assault. I'm not saying that they would have necessarily won the engagement. But they would have increased the odds. Again, it's also possible that loony boy may have decided to not pull a knife if he thought you were on to him. Again indicated by the way he stabbed the victim in the back. He might have chosen a different target. Nothing in that type of situation is 100% fool proof.

pma-ire

Jon wrote:

Funny this should come up right now, I was flicking through an Irish Fighter from last year and came across a whole page dedicated to a certain 'grandmaster' and still shots of defence against a knife attack. I was furious after reading through it, it was complete BULL. I was tempted there and then to pick up the phone to the editor and ask him to stop printing material that will get people disembowled. :mad:

Had to let off steam

Most of the time when Martial Artists try to work out knife defences they don't base it in the real world!!

This also gets on my goat Jon!!

Christ! I don't even see good empty hand self defence from a lot of guys!! And it don't matter how many dan grades they have! The longer a guy lives in the clouds the harder the fall to reality is!!

yomchi

Ain't that the truth!

Odysseus

Hi all, just seen the clip now, the guy should never have allowed the other guy to to get so close, never mind turning his back on him. We can all get caught off sometimes, but this guy was looking for it. Especially if you hear something like "are you sure you want to ruin your day", something like that tells you its time to go. I'm not sure if the person was hoping to get off the bus by going to the front, but he was closing himself off by doing so, there was much more space to move down the other end of the bus. Also when the victim does engage he does not try to control the knife, in a way he was luckly to walk away.

Ziycon

its a hard one to call, you may say you would always be the first to jump in but its different when faced with the situation in front of you!

Boru.

In slight relation to this I saw a BBC interview with a guy who went into help a lady being attacked a knife point by a thug. He was a big guy, bodybuilder, and he figured he could handle it. Apporached the guy and was then attacked by the guy and his freinds. Got a few light cuts, fell to the ground got kicked in the head a few times, got up and ran.

He considered it a lucky escape. Made it to hospital, got patched up, no serious injuries.

Two weeks later, driving home he goes completely blind. The head trauma he sustained resulted in delayed damage to the nerves - never regained his sight. He laughed about the situation and said he'd do it again. Last thing he said on the show was being blind was a small price to pay for knowing that woman is alive because of him.

I've been in two knife conflicts. I wouldn't volunteer to put myslef in that sitaution directly ever again. There are however an awful lot of options to help without direct intervention. - Calling the police is one that comes to mind, as is interupting the assailants OODA process.

We cna take something positive from this though. Its a possability. You've seen how it happens, so next time before class starts try sitting in a chair with your back turned and defend yourself. Analyses the techniques you know that could be helpful. If you want to make it a lttle more realistic try the suggestions in the knife training thread that came up a while back.

If you have a little more experience in the situation perhaps you are a little closer to answering the question of what you would do?

TapouT

Ziycon wrote:

its a hard one to call, you may say you would always be the first to jump in but its different when faced with the situation in front of you!

At last someone talks with a bit of cop on.

Fact is its easy to look at this from the sidelines but unless your placed in this situation you've no idea how you'll react.

And I'm speaking from experience. I wrote in another thread of my experience of a robber in a post office armed with a gun (which turned out to be fake) and a knife so I won't go into the whole thing here again.

I never took any sort of knife defence, but I just reacted to a situation, managed to get the gun from the guy then spent the rest of the time fighting the guy & trying to keep the knife away from me.

Thank god the cops showed up and took control of the situation.

But everyone without exception told me I was crazy to get involved, but I'd probably react the very same placed in the same situ again.

breadmonkey

Risking serious injury or death to save another's life is one thing, but I would NEVER do it for the sake of some money.

TapouT

breadmonkey wrote:

Risking serious injury or death to save another's life is one thing, but I would NEVER do it for the sake of some money.

If that was in reply to me.

I wasn't doing it for money. I was driving past a post office on Mobhi Road and an African national and the robber fell through the front window. The African lad tackled the guy first. When they came through the window people were shouting for help, I was in an army car and people in the shops were shouting to me the guy had a gun. So I just reacted. It was covered in the national papers.

Michael O Leary

Hi Tapout,

I remember that.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

TapouT

Michael O Leary wrote:

Hi Tapout,

I remember that.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

You'll be pleased to know then that the guy recently got 13yrs for that and other offences. One being attempted murder, he stabbed a guy on the quays last year at one of those skyfest firework's displays.

It was funny, because after he was arrested he tried to bring a charge of assault against me!.

It was hilarious really, because he had a balaclava on, a gun (which fell from his hand) and a kitchen knife which he was trying to stab me with. Anyway, when I had he beaten (subdued ) he started crying (in his best scanger accent) "you've got the wrong guy, I was only in collecting me pension". In the next breath he'd tell me he was going to stab me to death, then start whinging again that I'm hurting him & I had the wrong guy.

Anyway, I don't like talking about that here as it sounds like I'm bragging. The point I was trying to make is that people don't know how they'll react until their placed in that situation.

Roper

LOL @ some people on this thread! I'd do this I'd do that. You quite literally never know what you'd do until the situation arose.

I got attacked with a stanley blade a few years ago with a mate. We managed to get the blade off the guy and give some back, in the process my mate got some cuts and the attacker "got" a dislocated shoulder. Pure fluke by the way. Anyway, we had charges of assault against us (subsequently dropped) after that I said I'd ALWAYS hop in and help somone as we got no help that night, even some of the witnesses turned on us afterwards and said we'd gone too hard and that "it was only a small knife" (you can't make this sh1t up!)
Anyway about a year later I was in town with a girl walking down Dame Street and there's a bit of a scuffle, but I just thought it's a couple of lads in a drunken row, I wasn't going to get involved in that. One of them runs off and leaves the other guy lying there, he'd been stabbed in the side. I was fairly close and I never once saw the knife, neither did any of the other people around (it was closing time).

You just never know. These days it would take an awful lot for me to intervene.

TapouT

Roper wrote:

LOL @ some people on this thread! I'd do this I'd do that. You quite literally never know what you'd do until the situation arose.

I got attacked with a stanley blade a few years ago with a mate. We managed to get the blade off the guy and give some back, in the process my mate got some cuts and the attacker "got" a dislocated shoulder. Pure fluke by the way. Anyway, we had charges of assault against us (subsequently dropped) after that I said I'd ALWAYS hop in and help somone as we got no help that night, even some of the witnesses turned on us afterwards and said we'd gone too hard and that "it was only a small knife" (you can't make this sh1t up!)
Anyway about a year later I was in town with a girl walking down Dame Street and there's a bit of a scuffle, but I just thought it's a couple of lads in a drunken row, I wasn't going to get involved in that. One of them runs off and leaves the other guy lying there, he'd been stabbed in the side. I was fairly close and I never once saw the knife, neither did any of the other people around (it was closing time).

You just never know. These days it would take an awful lot for me to intervene.

Roper I can identify with that!.

I'm not sure if you remember the incident I posted about. It was in the national papers, and even the Joe Duffy show spoke to the Army press office looking for my account (I refused to speak to the media).

But when I was lying on the pavement with the robber, the African national was very badly cut lying against the wall beside us, people were actually STEPPING OVER US!. I kid you not!.

The African was a Christian preacher and was looking for his bible, which he'd dropped in the post office. He kept asking me if he was going to die, and kept telling me he didn't want to die without his bible.

(Fvck I'm getting angry writing this)

I was asking onlookers to get his bible for him, everyone with the exception of one old lady either ignored us or stepped over my us (we were all laying accross the pavement). The old lady stepped right through the smashed window and got the lads bible.

On the RTE six O'clock news two of the witnesses (one in the butchers shop & one from the o2 phone shop) gave an account of their heroics!. Cowardly bastards, evertime I go past there I'm tempted to go in and give them a bit of my mind!.

Sorry for the rant guys, but I get pretty worked up over this crap.

People talk crap about what they'll do etc.

***jumping off my emotional soapbox now***

JayRoc

I was dopey enough to get myself stabbed in the leg during a row as a teenager. I never even knew he had a knife until I got off my bike on the way home because the leg of my trousers felt wet!
If I didn't know he had a knife, I doubt anyone walking past would have seen it either, and I certainly wouldn't have expected some Joe Soap to hop in on my behalf if he thought it was just two guys rolling around trying to smack each other.
Which is all I'd say those people on the bus thought they saw.

Dave!

JayRoc wrote:

I was dopey enough to get myself stabbed in the leg during a row as a teenager. I never even knew he had a knife until I got off my bike on the way home because the leg of my trousers felt wet!
If I didn't know he had a knife, I doubt anyone walking past would have seen it either, and I certainly wouldn't have expected some Joe Soap to hop in on my behalf if he thought it was just two guys rolling around trying to smack each other.
Which is all I'd say those people on the bus thought they saw.

Yeah exactly, unfortunately in most situations it's hard to tell if there's a 'victim', and if there is, which person it is. As TAPOUT said, when he was restraining yer man he was shouting "You've got the wrong man!" and stuff like that. Now, if you see someone in a balaclava shouting that, you can safely assume that they're the bad guy , but if you're just passing by half way through the incident, and you see someone on the ground screaming "why are you hittin me, stop!", then it's not as black & white. What if you run over and grab the bigger bloke off the smaller one (misreading the situation, and assuming that the bigger lad is the assailant), and then the little guy takes out a knife?

I'd imagine that's the kind of thinking that prevents people from breaking up alot of fights/assaults -- at least, it would be for me.

As for the bus incident, which is perhaps a bit more clear-cut (jeez, nice pun), I really don't know what I'd do in the situation. I could guess and try to visualise what I'd do, but in reality I would either (a) freeze up, (b) run away, or (c) not think about safety, and run over and try to break it up. I just don't know which I'd do, cos I've never been in the situation, and I've never witnessed any fights that weren't being broken up by bouncers or similar.

I guess we'll see when the time comes