[article] Lorries banned from tunnel's right-hand lanes

NavanJunction1

Tim O'Brien, Irish Times, Fri, Apr 21, 06

Lorries are to be banned from two of the four lanes of the Dublin Port Tunnel when it opens later this year, writes Tim O'Brien

The tunnel, built at a cost of at least €775 million over the last five years, was designed to take the vast majority of 9,500 lorries out of the city centre each day.

However, the city council yesterday confirmed that lorries are to be confined to the left lane in each of the twin dual-carriageways that make up the tunnel.

The ban emerged after the Irish Road Haulage Association pointed out that the right-hand lane of the northbound tunnel disgorges traffic on to the overtaking lane of the motorway at Whitehall. Lorries are banned from the overtaking lanes of motorways and drivers who transgress are liable for up to three penalty points on their licence.

The hauliers were due to discuss their difficulty with junior Transport Minister Pat "the cope" Gallagher next Wednesday.

However, yesterday a spokeswoman for Dublin City Council said the difficulty for lorries emerging from the tunnel on to the motorway's right-hand lane would not arise, as the lorries would be also be barred from the right-hand lane of the tunnel.

The spokeswoman said there had been a lot of "misconceptions" about the road layout approaching and in the tunnel. She explained the tunnel was designed to take traffic seamlessly from the main lanes of the motorway "because the tunnel is the motorway".

She also explained that the tunnel itself and the stretch of open motorway between Whitehall and the M50 - currently the M1 - would be redesignated part of the M50.

She insisted that the volume of lorries would not cause a problem. It had been estimated that 350 lorries might arrive from a ferry in the port at the same time, and even though these lorries are obliged to maintain a 50m distance from each other, the council spokeswoman said the tunnel "will work perfectly."

Under current legislation the right-hand lane ban on lorries above 3,500kg also applies to coaches and buses that carry more than eight people and to vehicles towing other vehicles. The right-hand lanes of the north and southbound tunnels that are collectively called the Dublin Port Tunnel are to be reserved for vans and light commercial vehicles as well as private cars, all of which will pay a toll.

© The Irish Times

Drax

NavanJunction1 wrote:

junior Transport Minister Pat "the cope" Gallagher

Whats all this about then?

joolsveer

Drax wrote:

Whats all this about then?

I understand that it comes from a family connection to a cooperative as in co-op becomes cope.

pleba

NavanJunction1 wrote:

Tim O'Brien, Irish Times, Fri, Apr 21, 06
However, the city council yesterday confirmed that lorries are to be confined to the left lane in each of the twin dual-carriageways that make up the tunnel.

The ban emerged after the Irish Road Haulage Association pointed out that the right-hand lane of the northbound tunnel disgorges traffic on to the overtaking lane of the motorway at Whitehall. Lorries are banned from the overtaking lanes of motorways and drivers who transgress are liable for up to three penalty points on their licence.

© The Irish Times

Why do City Councils insist on using 'muppets' to design our major infrastructure projects?? Or is it only because they cant be fired?

Did they not think of this before they started the build?

bryanw

Now...this is one thing that really makes you think that we have incompetent management in this country. The Port Tunnel is a motorway which is designed to take HGVs away from the city centre.

I think that it's about time that HGVs were banned from overtaking on motorways (but some of them still do it), but I think they are making a mistake this time. The Port Tunnel should be given an exemption. It's bad enough it wasn't built high enough, but now the trucks can only use one lane . There will probably be very little car/light commercials who will pay a €12 toll to use the tunnel. So one lane will be like a 5km line of trucks and the other will be practically empty.

I am also aware that this will leave the trucks in the right hand land when they exit onto the main motorway heading north but they could have some sort of traffic calming around the toll plaza. If you really think of the specifics of the no overtaking ban on motorways for HGVs, There are a few flaws...

Let's just say a truck is approaching a junction on a m-way and its a GS roundabout. There are two lanes on the slip road which is "technically the m-way" until the sign, which is sometimes at the end of the slip. The truck wants to turn right, but it's not allowed in the right lane. How does it get in?

If the above isn't a great example - what about on the new (soon-to-be) upgraded intersections on the M50. What about traffic which may have to merge onto the right side of the carrigeway...? Then trucks would be in the overtaking lane. I found one example on the M1/M50 plan. The roundabout would remain - therefore traffic that was not on either motorway (N32) would end up in the right-hand lanes. Also on the M50/N3 junction, traffic that would use the free-flow lane (M50 heading northbound to N3 heading west) instead of the roundabout would end up on the right side of the carrigeway.

http://www.sdublincoco.ie/index.aspx?pageid=1741 - look at photomontages (vol 5 - part 3), they are easier to see the road layout.

Andrew Duffy

Int he case of the N3-M50 junction, I don't think it's a right-hand merge - the N3 is diverted to the North and the old westbound carriageway becomes a slip road (actually a two lane slip road merging into a single lane gain). N32 westbound - M50 westbound is interesting all right - I presume HGVs will have to weave to avoid breaking the law.

What is the exact situation here? In the UK I think HGVs are not allowed into the rightmost lane of a three-or-more lane carriageway, and possibly then only if it's a motorway.

Traffic

looks to me from this that HGVs will be in the centre lane when they emerge from the DPT

http://www.dublincity.ie/Images/NEW%20MAP2%2003%202006%20Nth%20Portal(2)_tcm35-34074.pdf

NavanJunction1

Anyone remember the N3 /M50 upgrade graphic in the Herald last year?

Anyone got a copy?

A Dub in Glasgo

Lorries are banned from the overtaking lanes of motorways which means they must only drive in the left hand lane? It is clear from the pic above that a lorry in the left hand lane in the north bound section of the tunnel will emerge in the middle overtaking lane on of the motorway. A lorry in the right hand lane of the north bound tunnel would emerge in the right hand overtaking lane of the motorway. It is going to be fun for a car joining the motorway at the tunnel mouth as you will have a long line of lorries all wanting to get into the left hand lane

bryanw

Traffic wrote:

looks to me from this that HGVs will be in the centre lane when they emerge from the DPT

http://www.dublincity.ie/Images/NEW%20MAP2%2003%202006%20Nth%20Portal(2)_tcm35-34074.pdf

As the picture shows there are no trucks in the outside lane, only cars. I can't imagine there would be a huge amount of cars using the tunnel at peak paying a €12 toll. So they will have make an exception on the HGV rule for the Port Tunnel. Even if the trucks stay to the left in the tunnel, they still won't be on the left when they emerge. I think the whole situation is a bit silly, all just based on "technicalities".

Chris_533976

So what we're basicially saying here, is that due to a bunch of incompetant morons, the lorries that are using the tunnel SPECIFICALLY BUILT FOR THEM, will be banned from using half of it?

Jesus christ what a bunch of fools. How the hell did this not get noticed and solved???

corktina

whereas banning trucks form the right hand lane of a 3 lanr makes sense, it is crazy to ban them on a 2 lane.....if we all adherred to this , there would be a total blockade of the left lane form slow moving trucks and extra hazzards to be negotiated by cars entering and leaving the m way........and no legal way for trucks to move over to let traffic in......you cant expect a truck going uphill to ease off to give you room, they need all the momentum they can get uphill....what a farce this tunnel is turning into.....do I guess that eventually the idea that it is for trucks will be dropped and it will become just a part of the M50?...
... and wahts more, where is the logic of this overtaking ban when it is legal and more dangerous on a normal N road dual carriageway.....

BrianD3

It's madness banning HGVs from the outside lane on 2 lane M-ways. Not only can HGVs not overtake, buses and any vehicle towing a trailer also can't overtake. It's clearly a flaw in the legislation and I doubt it'll be enforced. It never was enforced up to now and the legislation already existed, the difference now is just that the offence carries penalty points.

So what happens when a line of these vehicles banned from overtaking get stuck behind some granny toddling along at 40 mph in her Micra (as she's legally entitled to do) There's little point of driving on a motorway if you can't overtake anything, one of the main reasons why motorways were developed in the first place was to allow vehicles overtake each other much more safely than on single carrigeways.

It's absolutely laughable but the serious side if that HGVS may now be even less encoruaged to use M-ways than before. Tolls are bad enough, now penalty points for overtaking. Expect to see more HGVs using unsafe back roads where they're not banned from overtaking :rolleyes:

Litcagral

Andrew Duffy wrote:

What is the exact situation here? In the UK I think HGVs are not allowed into the rightmost lane of a three-or-more lane carriageway, and possibly then only if it's a motorway.

Of course it could only apply to motorways. How would a truck make a right turn on a dual carriageway if it was not permitted to use the right hand lane?

corktina

there will be carnage on the slip roads and donuts which are still part of the mway when trucks try to turn right from the left lane.....DoT muppets.......

Hagar

Just when you think it couldn't get worse.
These fools are making Ireland a laughing stock.

MT

Farcical. If a near billion euro tunnel has its capacity for moving the trucks it was built for cut in half it will surely become one of Europe's largest white elephants. They said it would be the longest underground road tunnel in Britain or Ireland, will it now be biggest waste of money? Or is that still London's Millenium Dome?

But the thing is surely this point of conflict only occurs when the trucks are emerging from the Northbound tunnel onto the rest of the M50? As there's no motorway south of the DPT then surely it'd be safe to allow them to use both lanes while travelling southbound?

Agree with other posters in the stupidity of banning trucks from the overtaking lane on motorways with only two lanes each way.

darkman2

MT wrote:

Farcical. If a near billion euro tunnel has its capacity for moving the trucks it was built for cut in half it will surely become one of Europe's largest white elephants. They said it would be the longest underground road tunnel in Britain or Ireland, will it now be biggest waste of money? Or is that still London's Millenium Dome?

But the thing is surely this point of conflict only occurs when the trucks are emerging from the Northbound tunnel onto the rest of the M50? As there's no motorway south of the DPT then surely it'd be safe to allow them to use both lanes while travelling southbound?

Agree with other posters in the stupidity of banning trucks from the overtaking lane on motorways with only two lanes each way.

I think its actually the longest motorway tunnel within a city in Europe. How stupid are these ppl. Only in Ireland.......:mad:

dowlingm

Look - the DPT is merely a part of the M50 (look at the NRA website where it says so clearly). The next question is: will a "DPT2" M50 Eastern Bypass south of the river happen and was the "relief of the Quays" merely a way of getting Phase 1 in.

(edit - looking at the DDDA documents that's actually option A2 for the Eastern Bypass)
http://www.ddda.ie/uploads/pdfs/Part%205.pdf

corktina

dowlingm wrote:

Look - the DPT is merely a part of the M50 (look at the NRA website where it says so clearly). The next question is: will a "DPT2" M50 Eastern Bypass south of the river happen and was the "relief of the Quays" merely a way of getting Phase 1 in.

(edit - looking at the DDDA documents that's actually option A2 for the Eastern Bypass)
http://www.ddda.ie/uploads/pdfs/Part%205.pdf

for sure....the tunnel seems to connect in directly to the east wall (which is being widened) rather than the docks.....

Capt'n Midnight

BrianD3 wrote:

So what happens when a line of these vehicles banned from overtaking get stuck behind some granny toddling along at 40 mph in her Micra (as she's legally entitled to do)

Why does the granny need to do 40mph ? Legally she is only prohibited from driving a vehicle that can't do 30mph. I'm not even sure that she needs to do 30mph. And probably would get off an obstruction charge as long as she wasn't in the overtaking lane :rolleyes:

A simple redesignation of the road would sort out the problem, it's not like trucks or anyone else are going to be doing 120Kmph in the tunnel.

Nice to see the railway still goes to the port, still think a lot of the freight could be sent that way. http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/intermodal.html

BrianD3

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Why does the granny need to do 40mph ? Legally she is only prohibited from driving a vehicle that can't do 30mph. I'm not even sure that she needs to do 30mph.

I'm not sure about this rule either, that's why to be safe I picked 40 mph for the granny example

corktina

i think that a vehicle needs to be capable of doing 30mph on a Mway....i dont think it actually has to do it......but for her own safety, she should be resticted to the road from her house to Mass and approriate warning signs bearing her reg number displayed:)

dowlingm

I think in the UK you might be prosecutable for driving too slowly but the IRHA statement to media says you can't here - google around and you'll see it referred to.

Lennoxschips

overtaking shouldn't be allowed in tunnels anyway for safety reasons. it should be solid lines throughout.

mackerski

German law on the matter of driving too slowly is non-specific on the subject of actual speed (apart where posted minimum speeds are concerned). However, you are not allowed to hinder the progress of traffic.

Dermot

mackerski

Lennoxschips wrote:

overtaking shouldn't be allowed in tunnels anyway for safety reasons. it should be solid lines throughout.

Solid lines don't actually prevent overtaking, though.

Dermot

MrPudding

mackerski wrote:

Solid lines don't actually prevent overtaking, though.

Dermot

Not in the south anyway.

mackerski

I'll try again - a solid line means "don't cross". It doesn't prohibit you from driving by another vehicle if you are already in a different lane. Tunnels in other countries routinely put solid lines between lanes and many prohibit trucks from lanes other than 1, but there is not usually any law against overtaking.

Dermot

MrPudding

OK, sorry get you now. I thought you were commenting on the Irish lack of respect for rules and meant that they would cross them anyway.

MrP

spacetweek

dowlingm wrote:

Look - the DPT is merely a part of the M50 (look at the NRA website where it says so clearly). The next question is: will a "DPT2" M50 Eastern Bypass south of the river happen and was the "relief of the Quays" merely a way of getting Phase 1 in.

The Eastern BP is very much on the agenda. And I'd like to think that Relief of the Quays was done to get f'ing trucks off our antiquated quays which were designed for horses and carts centuries ago.

murphaph

spacetweek wrote:

The Eastern BP is very much on the agenda. And I'd like to think that Relief of the Quays was done to get f'ing trucks off our antiquated quays which were designed for horses and carts centuries ago.

It isn't included in Transport21 so it's off the agenda for some time yet. A lot could change to keep it off the agenda. I really think it's totally OTT to be spending billions on an eastern bypass when we should be trying to get people out of their cars and onto public transport and the (at least) 2 or 3 billion an Eastern Bypass would cost could build a full metro line and pay for buses and bus priority measures to spread said metro line's catchment area.

If Dublin had a proper PT network then congestion charging within the M50 or canal rings coupled with charging for 'junction hopping' alng the M50 could return the motorway to its original bypass function.

It's decades away, but better to aim for that than build an eastern bypass. Who would use it anyway? It'd cost a fortune (at least €12 for a car, probably more).

spacetweek

murphaph wrote:

It isn't included in Transport21 so it's off the agenda for some time yet. A lot could change to keep it off the agenda.

Just checked T21 plans - my God you're right, it's not listed. The PT will hopefully be enough to act as the entry/exit point for the city centre to and from the M50, at least once the M50 is upgraded. Maybe no more is needed.

Also the Eastern BP would be tremendously disruptive to the city, apparently much of it would be elevated US-style. I'm not into that and it's frowned on internationally now.

murphaph

spacetweek wrote:

Also the Eastern BP would be tremendously disruptive to the city, apparently much of it would be elevated US-style. I'm not into that and it's frowned on internationally now.

And the areas of south Dublin the road would pass through are barrister laden to say the least! It'd get the best quality legal challenges ever seen in this country! The road would not be elevated though-a pretty clear alignmant has been maintained by the old Dublin County Council and latterly DLRCC. Some CPO's would be required but theys likely have to set the road in a trench like the A12 westlink and it's very long to be doing that (costly), and that's before you start your tunnel under Dublin Bay! $$$$$$$$$$$$$:eek:

Victor

murphaph wrote:

It isn't included in Transport21 so it's off the agenda for some time yet.

Really, do you have a project list for T21 (there is none).

spacetweek wrote:

Just checked T21 plans - my God you're right, it's not listed. The PT will hopefully be enough to act as the entry/exit point for the city centre to and from the M50, at least once the M50 is upgraded. Maybe no more is needed.

The Eastern Bypass must be prevented from becoming a commuting route and that is stated policy.

Also the Eastern BP would be tremendously disruptive to the city, apparently much of it would be elevated US-style. I'm not into that and it's frowned on internationally now.

No the vast majority would be in tunnel from the North Port to UCD and more or less at grade from UCD to Sandyford.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Really, do you have a project list for T21 (there is none).

There's this. It's not on that and it'd certainly be classified as "major".

Victor

LOL. Does that list individual projects with scope, indicative routes, junctions / stations and dare I say ...... budgets?

stag39

the law states that "Hgv's are not allowed to drive on the right hand lane"

ie. to drive in a lane is to sit in that lane and not pull back into the left hand lane..

it does not say a Hgv is not allowed "to go" in the right hand lane so allowing it the Hgv to overtake a slow driver ...imho

darkman2

Victor wrote:

Really, do you have a project list for T21 (there is none). :pThe Eastern Bypass must be prevented from becoming a commuting route and that is stated policy.No the vast majority would be in tunnel from the North Port to UCD and more or less at grade from UCD to Sandyford.

Eh why shouldnt the eastern bypass be a commuter route? Thats the idea behind a fully orbital ring road. You cant restrict cars from using it as its presently designed.

murphaph

darkman2 wrote:

Eh why shouldnt the eastern bypass be a commuter route?

The M50 provides a hundred thousand disgruntled reasons a day.

darkman2 wrote:

Thats the idea behind a fully orbital ring road

No it's not. Bypasses are for traffic bypassing a town or city, not moving from one point to another in that town or city.

Urban commuting should be catered for by public transport with a small percentage reliant on private vehicles.

corktina

stag39 wrote:

the law states that "Hgv's are not allowed to drive on the right hand lane"

ie. to drive in a lane is to sit in that lane and not pull back into the left hand lane..

it does not say a Hgv is not allowed "to go" in the right hand lane so allowing it the Hgv to overtake a slow driver ...imho

can you give chapter and verse on that please.....

Hagar

stag39 wrote:

the law states that "Hgv's are not allowed to drive on the right hand lane"

ie. to drive in a lane is to sit in that lane and not pull back into the left hand lane..

it does not say a Hgv is not allowed "to go" in the right hand lane so allowing it the Hgv to overtake a slow driver ...imho

I think you may be on to something there.
All the HGV driver has to do is "to go" into the rightmost lane and overtake without driving.
You sir, have cracked it.:rolleyes:

corktina

i dont think that arguement will impress a Gard intent on booking you....and will it stand up in court (at vast expense) ?....

Victor

stag39 wrote:

the law states that "Hgv's are not allowed to drive on the right hand lane" ie. to drive in a lane is to sit in that lane and not pull back into the left hand lane.. it does not say a Hgv is not allowed "to go" in the right hand lane so allowing it the Hgv to overtake a slow driver ...imho

You might have amarginal point and it would depend on exactly what the law says (where is this in the Road Traffic acts?). If you pull out of a side road and use a bus lane to accelerate as you pull into the driving lane, are you driving in the bus lane?

darkman2 wrote:

Eh why shouldnt the eastern bypass be a commuter route? Thats the idea behind a fully orbital ring road. You cant restrict cars from using it as its presently designed.

Because the city centre can't sustain the number of cars it would deliver.